Skip to main content ↑ ↓

Notice

Please note that most of the software linked on this forum is likely to be safe to use. If you are unsure, feel free to ask in the relevant topics, or send a private message to an administrator or moderator. To help curb the problems of false positives, or in the event that you do find actual malware, you can contribute through the article linked here.
Topic: Audio Cable Hate? (Read 67801 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #150 –
Quote from: Dracaena on
The problem is the rationalist says:
"The signal is not audibly different, therefore you cannot hear a difference."

You're assuming a rationalist cannot account for the way the human brain perceives audio.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #151 –
Quote from: Dracaena on
This is why saying that a monster audio cable does not produce an audibly different signal is not the same as saying that a human cannot hear a difference using a monster cable. It's quite possible that the person actually does hear a difference, even if the signal is exactly the same.

The problem is the rationalist says:
"The signal is not audibly different, therefore you cannot hear a difference."


Typical statement made by people who don't get 21st reason and science. They misstate the rational viewpoint, typically inserting their own confused thoughts.

The 21st century rational and scientific viewpoint is more like:

"Unless you do the comparison properly and scientifically, the listener will perceive a difference. Period. He will perceive this different even if he's (unknowingly) comparing something to itself."

Quote
Of course it's also possible people only think they hear a difference but actually don't.


Wrong again in terms of the severity of the problem of illusory perceptions of differences.

It is practically certain that unless the listening comparison is done properly and scientifically, the listener will perceive a difference.

He will usually (as in almost always) perceive this difference even if he's (unknowingly) comparing something to itself. 

He might even hear the difference even if he knows that he is comparing something to itself (IOW the same thing twice).

Left to its own devices, the brain will perceive differences. Period.  The difficult challenge at hand is hearing sameness when it exists.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #152 –
there are also the "bad" cables sold as "upgrade" that will sound different in some situations. and people who experienced that may then think that any cable anywhere will also have a sonic job to do. the most obvious for me being custom IEMs, they all have chaotic impedance values over frequencies(from the crossover mostly), and just by adding some impedance to the cable you can obtain great signature changes. people who experienced that and don't have a clue why it happened will be sold on cable for life. they will probably start paying for anything, from power plug to to usb cables. because hey! why not?

I sure wouldn't like to be kept in the dark just so that I could feel at ease with my own ignorance of the world, and of myself. but maybe some believe that neo should have taken the blue pill?

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #153 –
Quote from: Dracaena on
The problem is the rationalist says:
"The signal is not audibly different,

Simply stop there.  No problem. 

"I hear it when I see it."

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #154 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: Dracaena on
This is why saying that a monster audio cable does not produce an audibly different signal is not the same as saying that a human cannot hear a difference using a monster cable. It's quite possible that the person actually does hear a difference, even if the signal is exactly the same.

The problem is the rationalist says:
"The signal is not audibly different, therefore you cannot hear a difference."


Typical statement made by people who don't get 21st reason and science. They misstate the rational viewpoint, typically inserting their own confused thoughts.

The 21st century rational and scientific viewpoint is more like:

"Unless you do the comparison properly and scientifically, the listener will perceive a difference. Period. He will perceive this different even if he's (unknowingly) comparing something to itself."

Quote
Of course it's also possible people only think they hear a difference but actually don't.


Wrong again in terms of the severity of the problem of illusory perceptions of differences.

It is practically certain that unless the listening comparison is done properly and scientifically, the listener will perceive a difference.

He will usually (as in almost always) perceive this difference even if he's (unknowingly) comparing something to itself. 

He might even hear the difference even if he knows that he is comparing something to itself (IOW the same thing twice).

Left to its own devices, the brain will perceive differences. Period.  The difficult challenge at hand is hearing sameness when it exists.


So does this happen to you? When you listen to a system and you compare cables that should sound exactly the same do you think you hear differences when you are not doing it blind? This happens even if you expect the cables to sound the same?

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #155 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: Dracaena on
The problem is the rationalist says:
"The signal is not audibly different, therefore you cannot hear a difference."

You're assuming a rationalist cannot account for the way the human brain perceives audio.

I don't think I am.

Imagine a hypothetical scenario, with someone (let's call him Bob) who claims to hear a difference between cables. He's been worked over by some clever marketing and hypothetical Bob's brain actually tells him he's hearing a difference in a sighted comparison.
Now he hooks up with arnie and they conduct the most perfectly executed blind test of all time, such that no-one can question it. The results of the test are that there's a very low probability that Bob can tell the difference, or something to that effect in whatever wordage is appropriate for such a test. In Bob's mind this test is telling him that he can't hear a difference. There doesn't need to be a rationalist making a statement, the test itself and the whole rationalist viewpoint is saying to Bob that he can't hear a difference.

Bob doesn't necessarily make the distinction between what the cable is doing and what his brain is doing, to him the cable is the cause. He has rationalists pointing to the test, hoping that it will dispel the illusion by proving he can't hear the difference. But the trick was not convincing him there was a difference, it was convincing him that the difference was a result of the cable.

What I'm trying to say is that it might be more important to dispel the idea that there is a link between the illusion and the cable. It's not the cable producing the illusion, it's the brain. The trick was not convincing him there was a difference, it was convincing him that the difference was a result of the cable.

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
It is practically certain that unless the listening comparison is done properly and scientifically, the listener will perceive a difference.

He will usually (as in almost always) perceive this difference even if he's (unknowingly) comparing something to itself. 

He might even hear the difference even if he knows that he is comparing something to itself (IOW the same thing twice).

Left to its own devices, the brain will perceive differences. Period.  The difficult challenge at hand is hearing sameness when it exists.

So you can see how Bob would be confused. What you're saying is that Bob can always hear a difference, except under the most extreme controlled conditions. So telling him he can't hear a difference might not be as useful as pointing out that the difference he hears is not a result of the cable.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #156 –
Why must the rationalist tell him that he is not hearing a difference in a sighted test if the rationalist takes him at his word that he is, regardless of whether this difference is manifested in the brain or by the cables themselves?

IOW, a rationalist that accepts the notion that what humans hear can be shaped by more than what stimulates the inner-ear isn't going to make the statement you're claiming he will make.

AFAIC, this is a vital portion of the argument that is not adequately credited to the side that holds science above magic.

...then there are people who contend that no one is actually perceiving a difference when the stimulus is identical, rather they are all lying due to peer-pressure, acceptance or any number of fabricated reasons that allows them to continue to deny the phenomena to which JJ has referred as steering.  I don't think you would call these people rationalists.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #157 –
Quote from: Dracaena on
The problem is the rationalist says:
"The signal is not audibly different, therefore you cannot hear a difference."

and the cable guy says:
"I can hear a difference, therefore this cable must be having an effect even if you are unable to scientifically account for it."


I don't know any "rationalist" who has made the claim you put in their mouths.

Quote
"The signal is not audibly different, but it's possible you hear a difference anyway because brains are freaking' weird."


As far as I know that is actually the "rationalist" position, and not the red herring you seem to have set up.

They don't object to the claim "I can hear a difference" they object to the claim "The difference I hear MUST be due to the physical nature of the cable".



Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #158 –
Quote from: Heisenberg on
So does this happen to you? When you listen to a system and you compare cables that should sound exactly the same do you think you hear differences when you are not doing it blind? This happens even if you expect the cables to sound the same?


Absolutely. Expand on that from cables to all kinds of audio gear.  Without a well-setup experiment I just about always hear false differences, and even with a good setup I still often hear false differences.  Not only me, but many of my friends and associates. It is how we are wired, man!

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #159 –
It's not hate, it's just that's there's no benefits (except straight vs coiled) on changing cables, so most view them as ''snake oil''

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #160 –
Quote from: ncolombo on
From... an audio engineer, electrical engineer, studio engineer and reluctant audiophile...
 
Are you people totally serious? Do you think that electrical theory and measurement ends with Ohm's Law?
 
Your contributions to this forum are ignorant and ill-informed. I could write for hours, but I'll keep it to a few inarguable facts.
AES Papers: Lipschitz and Vanderkooy. Under dynamic music conditions ... a change of just 2dB is audible to most listeners, not just to audiophiles. The National Bureau of Standards and Measurements: 1930's... The DC to AC Resistance Ratio shows clear attenuation in a conductor greater than 1 mm or 18 AWG in a copper conductor. There's the 'skin-effect' and then there's the 'skin-depth ratio'. A stranded conductor is more resistive than a solid-core conductor of the same conductive mass.
 
A conductor made of silver can not be matched in 'linearity of amplitude versus frequency' by simply increasing the size of a copper conductor. If the copper conductor increases in diameter, the high frequencies will attenuate further. Learn something about skin-depth ratio and non-uniform current versus frequency distribution in a wire made of any metal.
 
Speaker Cable: Resistance is not worth calculating... 2mm squared or 14 AWG is sufficient for most speaker cable applications. But(!) a single round 2 mm sq. or 14 AWG conductor will attenuate high frequencies (audio) and this is measurable and audible. What is the electrical characteristic that is measurable? The AC Resistance known as Inductance... 
 
Low Level Interconnect (RCA) Cables: For every doubling of the length of the interconnect, the high frequency bandwidth is reduced by a full octave. You cloth-eared bints. Every doubling of Capacitance will reduce the high-frequency bandwidth by a full octave. Is Capacitance important in a low-level signal interface... in an RCA Interconnect ? I just told you so.
 
Together, series Inductance and parallel Capacitance in audio cables create a low-pass filter... made all the more interesting and audible by variations in the output impedance and the input impedance of audio components. Higher resolution digital files are audibly superior to the red-book standard off 44.1 kHz. I work with these files on a daily basis and whenever I can, I will record live to 2-Track Analog.
 
Rolex: All swiss-movements (however absurdly expensive) are less accurate than a quartz movement. But an atomic clock is even more accurate... and guess what? We have developed very high frequency waves that can transmit a signal to your wristwatch. Perfect.
 
BMW: Of course. But if you can only afford 50 cents for a foot of speaker cable, then you probably will not get to drive any fine cars.
 
Seriously. You are never to old to learn. Please consider this before making ridiculous statements based up no knowledge or experience.


Instead of giving SUBJECTIVE LISTENING RESULTS, please give us OBJECTIVES MEASUREMENTS RESULTS. Measurements can't lie, people can.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #161 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: Heisenberg on
So does this happen to you? When you listen to a system and you compare cables that should sound exactly the same do you think you hear differences when you are not doing it blind? This happens even if you expect the cables to sound the same?


Absolutely. Expand on that from cables to all kinds of audio gear.  Without a well-setup experiment I just about always hear false differences, and even with a good setup I still often hear false differences.  Not only me, but many of my friends and associates. It is how we are wired, man!


That is astonishing! So even if one firmly believes that there is no audible difference between cables or, as you pointed out, any other component in the chain AND one has failed to detect any audible differences in blind tests one will continue to hear false differences both before and afterwards when making non blind comparisons. That is really weird. So when this happens does one continue to hear the same false differences or does the effect shift in any way? I hope I am being clear. It's awkward to ask if the differences remain the same or if they are, for lack of a better word, different. But to put it another way. If under sighted conditions if a person believes one component or cable sounds "brighter" than another but can't tell the difference under blind conditions will that person continue to hear "brighter" sound once they go back to non blind comparisons? Or will that change? Will they hear "different" false differences?

And what about components that sound different under blind conditions? Does that difference change in nature when one listens with and without a well set up experiment?

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #162 –
I can't speak for everyone, nor will I attempt to, but personally I don't necessarily always fit into Arny's stereotype.  I would also like to add that I concur with what I've heard from James Johnston (the "JJ" I referenced earlier who is known as "Woodinville" on this forum), a reputable expert in psychoacoustics (to paraphrase, even if badly): if you are lead to believe there are no audible differences between two test subjects then your brain can be steered into not hearing any.

Other than being a musician who hasn't suffered much hearing loss, I'd like to think my hearing acuity is only average when compared to others who make an effort to pay at least a little attention to what they hear.  I've worked as a professional listener and have been told I was amongst the best where I've contracted.  I mention this only to suggest that I don't think you can classify me as a "cloth-eared bint" when I say that sometimes I can't tell the difference between two things.  Conversely, sometimes I think I do hear differences in sighted tests which I can't reliably affix in blind tests.

I remember when I was first auditioned for one of my contracts, it was suggested that there was an audible artifact present by the person conducting a practice run when playing the reference and was asked if I could hear it.  I was intentionally being tricked, but didn't know it at the time.  I went with my gut and confessed that I couldn't tell the difference.

If you haven't already and are using Windows, install foobar2000 with the ABX component and test a lossless source against a lossy version of it using an advanced codec at its highest settings.  Test using the component and by just listening between the two from the playlist tab and see for yourself.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #163 –
Quote from: Heisenberg on
That is astonishing! So even if one firmly believes that there is no audible difference between cables or, as you pointed out, any other component in the chain AND one has failed to detect any audible differences in blind tests one will continue to hear false differences both before and afterwards when making non blind comparisons. That is really weird.


It may be weird if you are uneducated about human physiology and psychology, but if you are then I think it is weird that you find it weird!

This is old stuff, you know.  Stage magicians have made a living off of this for a couple of hundred years now, for instance.  You must understand that you are easy to fool as is every other human being.  The person who believes he can't be fooled is in fact the easiest to actually fool if you know just a little bit about how the human mind work.  Even knowing that you can easily be fooled doesn't prevent you from being fooled, but it does make it just a little bit harder for the fooler.



Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #164 –
Quote from: Ed Seedhouse on
Quote from: Heisenberg on
That is astonishing! So even if one firmly believes that there is no audible difference between cables or, as you pointed out, any other component in the chain AND one has failed to detect any audible differences in blind tests one will continue to hear false differences both before and afterwards when making non blind comparisons. That is really weird.


It may be weird if you are uneducated about human physiology and psychology, but if you are then I think it is weird that you find it weird!

This is old stuff, you know.  Stage magicians have made a living off of this for a couple of hundred years now, for instance.  You must understand that you are easy to fool as is every other human being.  The person who believes he can't be fooled is in fact the easiest to actually fool if you know just a little bit about how the human mind work.  Even knowing that you can easily be fooled doesn't prevent you from being fooled, but it does make it just a little bit harder for the fooler.


I suppose I am fairly uneducated on both human physiology and psychology. So it does seem weird. I guess if it's "old stuff" to you it would seem less weird. I get the stage magician analogy but I think it is fair to say that once a magician shows you the trick you see it for what it is the second time around. Likewise it seems intuitive that once one fails to detect differences in a controlled listening test (I hope I am using the right jargon here) that the effect would not come back when one returns to the "uncontrolled" (correct terminology?) listening. Intuitively it would seem that once the effect of uncontrolled listening is exposed by the controlled listening experience that the effects would go away much like once a magician shows you how he does the trick you can then see it for what it is.

Intuition isn't science though.  So if our minds go back to hearing differences that are not physically there in the actual sound does our mind go back to hearing the same phantom differences or does exposure to the lack of actual sound differences affect the phantom differences in some way?

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #165 –
Look up the McGurk effect and watch some of the demonstration videos. If it works on you it will probably still work even after it has been explained.  Humans are just wired in such a way that your brain will reinterpret what it receives from your ears when what is received is in conflict with what is received by the other senses in addition to previous experiences in an attempt to reconcile what is reality.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #166 –
Quote from: greynol on
I can't speak for everyone, nor will I attempt to, but personally I don't necessarily always fit into Arny's stereotype.  I would also like to add that I concur with what I've heard from James Johnston (the "JJ" I referenced earlier who is known as "Woodinville" on this forum), a reputable expert in psychoacoustics (to paraphrase, even if badly): if you are lead to believe there are no audible differences between two test subjects then your brain can be steered into not hearing any.

Other than being a musician who hasn't suffered much hearing loss, I'd like to think my hearing acuity is only average when compared to others who make an effort to pay at least a little attention to what they hear.  I've worked as a professional listener and have been told I was amongst the best where I've contracted.  I mention this only to suggest that I don't think you can classify me as a "cloth-eared bint" when I say that sometimes I can't tell the difference between two things.  Conversely, sometimes I think I do hear differences in sighted tests which I can't reliably affix in blind tests.

I remember when I was first auditioned for one of my contracts, it was suggested that there was an audible artifact present by the person conducting a practice run when playing the reference and was asked if I could hear it.  I was intentionally being tricked, but didn't know it at the time.  I went with my gut and confessed that I couldn't tell the difference.

If you haven't already and are using Windows, install foobar2000 with the ABX component and test a lossless source against a lossy version of it using an advanced codec at its highest settings.  Test using the component and by just listening between the two from the playlist tab and see for yourself.

This does make things a little confusing. On the one hand Arny seems to be saying that even with an expectation that two components would sound the same they will sound different without the controls. It looks to me like you are saying that with an expectation that two things will sound the same that they may sound the same even if there are actual differences present. Are these two ideas in conflict or are they dependent on other things?

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #168 –
But if your senses fool you, then it is a truism for you , and you truly do hear better sound etc...
 

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #169 –
Quote from: Heisenberg on
That is astonishing! So even if one firmly believes that there is no audible difference between cables or, as you pointed out, any other component in the chain AND one has failed to detect any audible differences in blind tests one will continue to hear false differences both before and afterwards when making non blind comparisons.


True.

Quote
That is really weird.


Perhaps. It speaks to the power and pervasiveness  of the mechanisms that cause the perception of illusory audible differences.

Quote
so when this happens does one continue to hear the same false differences or does the effect shift in any way?


What happens is that you hear the same false differences as ever if you should use old fashioned listening unscientific test procedures, only you now know that they are likely false. And even when you use the best available procedures, you may still hear false differences when the real differences are subtle enough to make hearing true differences difficult.

Quote
I hope I am being clear. It's awkward to ask if the differences remain the same or if they are, for lack of a better word, different. But to put it another way. If under sighted conditions if a person believes one component or cable sounds "brighter" than another but can't tell the difference under blind conditions will that person continue to hear "brighter" sound once they go back to non blind comparisons? Or will that change? Will they hear "different" false differences?


IME intellectual knowledge about something does not change how you perceive it, it changes how you respond to it. I like sweets and even though I know that eating too many sweets can be bad for me, I still like sweets as much as ever.


Quote
And what about components that sound different under blind conditions? Does that difference change in nature when one listens with and without a well set up experiment?


With a well set up experiment most if not all possible doubts about your perceptions of a reliable difference are either erased or vastly reduced.  You can be confident about hearing smaller more subtle differences since false differences can't make the cut.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #170 –
Quote from: Heisenberg on
On the one hand Arny seems to be saying that even with an expectation that two components would sound the same they will sound different without the controls.


True.

Quote
It looks to me like you are saying that with an expectation that two things will sound the same that they may sound the same even if there are actual differences present.


That is a common fear, but it usually doesn't work out that way because the mechanisms that cause us to hear differences whether true or false, are so strong.

Think about it. What percentage of listening evaluations that lack modern controls (DBT) and enhancements (listener training and quick switching under the listener's control) have positive results?

IME just about every last one of them.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #171 –
Quote from: Aldem on
it's just that's there's no benefits (except straight vs coiled) on changing cables, so most view them as ''snake oil''

This is where I tend to disagree. There may well be benefits to the listener, even with zero physical change in the soundfield, since their mind has made in real. It has made them happier.
Then there is the fact that the folks dropping big $$ on cables may own big $$ "audiophile" equipment to attach them to. Much of which is so idiotically "engineered", that it becomes entirely possible for the cable to make a physical difference in the soundfield. But these "effects" will be highly unpredictable.
As such, the "snake oil" I see is merely from the manufacturers physical, specific claims.

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #172 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
This is where I tend to disagree. There may well be benefits to the listener, even with zero physical change in the soundfield, since their mind has made in real. It has made them happier.


This *may* be true but while it *may* or *may* not last weeks, days or months, it is a placebo effect. If the belief goes away, so does the benefit.

Contrast that with the benefits of *real* technology.

Quote
Then there is the fact that the folks dropping big $$ on cables may own big $$ "audiophile" equipment to attach them to. Much of which is so idiotically "engineered", that it becomes entirely possible for the cable to make a physical difference in the soundfield. But these "effects" will be highly unpredictable.


Or maybe not.

Again, contrast that with the benefits of *real* technology.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #173 –
Quote from: greynol on
Look up the McGurk effect and watch some of the demonstration videos. If it works on you it will probably still work even after it has been explained.  Humans are just wired in such a way that your brain will reinterpret what it receives from your ears when what is received is in conflict with what is received by the other senses in addition to previous experiences in an attempt to reconcile what is reality.


Looked up and saw some demos on Youtube. OK that is ****ing weird!!!  I guess I have noticed this effect in a way with movies and TV. I remember being certain as a child that the sound was coming from the actual images on the TV and on the movie screen and not from speakers that were some where else.

But is that what is happening with cables and other audio components? Having read a few other threads on this forum I got the distinct impression that it was not literally visual cues that were the issue with things like cables and other components that should sound the same that cause us to think we hear differences but a purely psychological effect of biases. And those biases can be quite subconscious which is also really weird to me.

Are the McGurk effect and bias effects the same thing or are they different? Or is it not so simple as either/or?

Also, and maybe this should be on a different thread, do we get a reverse McGurk effect with audio since we have no accompanying visual cues with the music to reenforce an illusion? Would audio sound different, perhaps more convincing with some sort of visual aid like video of the musicians playing? 

Sorry about my questions being all over the place.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #174 –
Quote from: Heisenberg on
But is that what is happening with cables and other audio components? Having read a few other threads on this forum I got the distinct impression that it was not literally visual cues that were the issue with things like cables and other components that should should sound the same that cause us to think we hear differences but a purely psychological effect of biases. And those biases can be quite subconscious which is also really weird to me.


I was taught to pursue origional texts, and in the case of cables that probably means lurk in mainstream forums and read mainstream blogs. HA is not like a typical forum.

Quote
Are the McGurk effect and bias effects the same thing or are they different? Or is it not so simple as either/or?


Mcgurk is one of very many audible illusions. The illusion that just about any change in a sighted evaluation results in the perception of a different but actually improved sound is another illusion.

Quote
Also, and maybe this should be on a different thread, do we get a reverse McGurk effect with audio since we have no accompanying visual cues with the music to reenforce an illusion? Would audio sound different, perhaps more convincing with some sort of visual aid like video of the musicians playing?


Well, I have a number of music video discs, and for me  listening to them is a different experience. IME it does not enhance the realism of the sound.

I don't think that it can be properly said that we can reverse illusions. How do you negate a mirage?  Conditions can change and it goes away, but I don't think that is the same as negativing.