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Topic: Audio Cable Hate? (Read 68686 times) previous topic - next topic
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Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #200 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: Heisenberg on
I guess though the real question is are there certain aspects of a component that yield consistent bias effects? For instance do bigger heavier electronics consistently yield more positive biases? Do certain colors or shapes do that? I am pretty sure food manufacturers do a lot of research in that area. Has anyone in audio?
You're asking if there is market research in audio.
Yes, of course there is. Companies with good marketing departments do this.


What I am asking is whether or not there has been scientific research on it. Things like this.
http://health.usnews.com/health-news/famil...e-think-and-act


Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #201 –
Quote from: greynol on
I can't speak for everyone, nor will I attempt to, but personally I don't necessarily always fit into Arny's stereotype.  I would also like to add that I concur with what I've heard from James Johnston (the "JJ" I referenced earlier who is known as "Woodinville" on this forum), a reputable expert in psychoacoustics (to paraphrase, even if badly): if you are lead to believe there are no audible differences between two test subjects then your brain can be steered into not hearing any.


As a wise man once said: "Nothing is black or white".

That "Lead(ing) to believe there are no audible differences..."  like the leading to believe that there are always audible differences, can take many forms and be held with varying degrees of certainty.

Therefore personal actions based on that belief can be all over the map.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #202 –
Quote from: Heisenberg on
What I am asking is whether or not there has been scientific research on it.

I don't know, but a good marketing department will also leverage the results of such studies, if not contract them to be performed.

Some audio companies have research departments, too.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #203 –
Quote from: xnor on
Sorry, but it just fits so well with the off-topic.


Ahhh.... ok... I was thinking water droplets; I didn't know Unicorns were involved.

But the rainbow still exists!

 
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #204 –
OT: The vast majority of people understand that the image that you see moving on a screen isn't really moving, but is made up of a series of still images displayed in rapid succession. This in no way takes away the impression that the images are actually moving, and for most people doesn't take away from the enjoyment of watching "moving" pictures. So what is reality?

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #205 –
Quote from: pdq on
OT: The vast majority of people understand that the image that you see moving on a screen isn't really moving, but is made up of a series of still images displayed in rapid succession. This in no way takes away the impression that the images are actually moving, and for most people doesn't take away from the enjoyment of watching "moving" pictures. So what is reality?


I did, or meant to, mention projection of slides rather than movies, for that very reason.

Closer to home, stereo is an illusion too.
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #209 –
Penn & Teller also did such tests with foods. Two different plates labeled organic vs. non-organic, half a banana on each plate. People preferred the organic one, describing how it tastes more like a real banana and what not (cf. audiophile terminology) ... and then they were told both halves belong to the same banana.
"I hear it when I see it."

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #210 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: Heisenberg on
I guess though the real question is are there certain aspects of a component that yield consistent bias effects? For instance do bigger heavier electronics consistently yield more positive biases? Do certain colors or shapes do that? I am pretty sure food manufacturers do a lot of research in that area. Has anyone in audio?
You're asking if there is market research in audio.
Yes, of course there is. Companies with good marketing departments do this.


THere's also Toole and Olive

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=6338

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #211 –
Quote from: xnor on
Penn & Teller also did such tests with foods. Two different plates labeled organic vs. non-organic, half a banana on each plate. People preferred the organic one, describing how it tastes more like a real banana and what not (cf. audiophile terminology) ... and then they were told both halves belong to the same banana.


Their water waiter one was even more audiophile-relevant...

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #212 –
Quote from: krabapple on
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: Heisenberg on
I guess though the real question is are there certain aspects of a component that yield consistent bias effects? For instance do bigger heavier electronics consistently yield more positive biases? Do certain colors or shapes do that? I am pretty sure food manufacturers do a lot of research in that area. Has anyone in audio?
You're asking if there is market research in audio.
Yes, of course there is. Companies with good marketing departments do this.


THere's also Toole and Olive

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=6338



The AES version may not be easy for everybody to read, but this article by one of the authors has similar content:

http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/04/dish...io-product.html

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #213 –
Surely you guys must have had a scenario where you read the reviews, saw the eye candy, had the stuffed wallet and gone to the store to hear the black box ......

and then decided not to buy it?

For all those who have trouble with the concept, it's called " being honest with yourself ". For some, apparently, a bit harder than others? 

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #214 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Surely you guys must have had a scenario where you read the reviews, saw the eye candy, had the stuffed wallet and gone to the store to hear the black box ......


Nope.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #215 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: krabapple on
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: Heisenberg on
I guess though the real question is are there certain aspects of a component that yield consistent bias effects? For instance do bigger heavier electronics consistently yield more positive biases? Do certain colors or shapes do that? I am pretty sure food manufacturers do a lot of research in that area. Has anyone in audio?
You're asking if there is market research in audio.
Yes, of course there is. Companies with good marketing departments do this.


THere's also Toole and Olive

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=6338



The AES version may not be easy for everybody to read, but this article by one of the authors has similar content:

http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/04/dish...io-product.html


That is interesting stuff and it speaks to the power of sighted bias. That it would be more powerful than actual differences in the sound says a lot. It also points out that size does matter.  One thing that it did not talk about was how the same subjects responded once they were informed that they were basically listening to the same speaker in a bigger box. Would the bias have disappeared with that knowledge or would the appearance of a bigger speaker continue to create a positive bias?

Thanks for the link. Do any of you here on this forum do blind comparisons between speakers? Isn't that a royal PIA?

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #216 –
Quote from: Heisenberg on
Would the bias have disappeared with that knowledge or would the appearance of a bigger speaker continue to create a positive bias?


Bias disappearing in a reliable and predictable fashion?  Highly unlikely.

There's a video I'd love to link but can't find. In it a little boy makes up a batch of brownies with the sugar replaced with salt.  He induces his friends to eat them.  They won't complain to his face and they do report on camera that they taste good. However as soon as they think nobody is looking the *delicious* brownies are disposed of by any possible means other than eating them.

Quote
Thanks for the link. Do any of you here on this forum do blind comparisons between speakers? Isn't that a royal PIA?


Yes, and it is a PITA but can yield surprising results.  Some mention of it here:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/1...tml#post2367489

The link to the more formal report:  https://www.scribd.com/doc/103681479/SLReport10-05

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #217 –
Quote from: Rich B on
For all those who have trouble with the concept, it's called " being honest with yourself ". For some, apparently, a bit harder than others? 
1) In your estimation, who is having trouble with this concept, exactly?
2) What would you suggest are the reasons?


Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #218 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: Heisenberg on
I guess though the real question is are there certain aspects of a component that yield consistent bias effects?


The years I have spent on online audio forums have convinced me of that.

Quote
For instance do bigger heavier electronics consistently yield more positive biases?


Right. The entry of audio gear based on switchmode power supplies and power amps are probably lagging because of negative perceptions based on the absence of weight.

I recall reading that Denis Morecroft was told by his dealers that the light weight of his DNM amplifiers sometimes led to reduced sales, because buyers were unimpressed by the lack of heft of his perspex-boxed equipment. They'd plump for something chunky instead.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #219 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Surely you guys must have had a scenario where you read the reviews, saw the eye candy, had the stuffed wallet and gone to the store to hear the black box ......

and then decided not to buy it?
FWIW I am routinely disappointed by the real-life performance of products after reading their gushing reviews.

The opposite often happens too of course - someone or some publication tries to convince me of the presence of some fault or some problem, and I can't see/hear it.


I think there's a tendency in human nature to get close to a subject, and then perceive minute or non-existent differences as significant, while being unable to appreciate the glaring flaws in every example you've ever experienced.  It's a basic human function across all our experiences that we adjust to the level we're used to, and then exaggerate small changes to that level. We miss the macro, and obsess over the micro.

It's obvious why we need this to survive as a species, but it can leave us pretty clueless when assessing A/V equipment.

Cheers,
David.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #220 –
Just a question. Does bias affect us on a conscious level, or *only* on a subconscious level?

So there is no way to consciously control your subconscious? Has this been tested? How much do we know about the subconscious and conscious mind?

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #221 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Just a question. Does bias affect us on a conscious level, or *only* on a subconscious level?

So there is no way to consciously control your subconscious? Has this been tested? How much do we know about the subconscious and conscious mind?


Both.

No. That's why it's "subconscious."

Yes.

Much. It helps to read some introductory texts.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #223 –
For example, you might both consciously select reviews that support your beliefs and subconsciously skip over, ignore, downplay flaws or criticism in or of those reviews.
"I hear it when I see it."

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #224 –
Quote from: Rich B on
So there is no way to consciously control your subconscious?


Depends on if you want to believe the thousands of self-help psychobabble books out there...