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Topic: Audio Cable Hate? (Read 68683 times) previous topic - next topic
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Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #175 –
Quote from: Rich B on
But if your senses fool you, then it is a truism for you , and you truly do hear better sound etc...

You can see rainbows and imagine unicorns too.  I prefer not to be ignorant, even if it means losing some bliss. Instead, I feel I gain a sense of empowerment and freedom.

Personally I think the world is full of enough gullible idiots. I'd rather not add to the list if I can help it.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #176 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: Rich B on
But if your senses fool you, then it is a truism for you , and you truly do hear better sound etc...

You can see rainbows and imagine unicorns too.  I prefer to not be ignorant, even if it means losing some bliss. Instead, I feel I gain a sense of empowerment and freedom.
Personally I think the world is full of enough gullible idiots. I'd rather not add to the list if I can help it.


Seems a bit harsh. I see rainbows quite often when it rains. Is that my optic nerve at work or my gullibility and ignorance?

If these effects, bias effects, McGurk effect et al are so powerful that we can't make them go away even after we eliminate them temporarily with controls are people being gullible idiots and ignorant when they respond to these effects or are they just being human? Where is the empowerment and freedom if the effects are inescapable?

My first reaction when reading about this on this thread was one of frustration. We know we are being fooled by things that have nothing to do with the actual components in an audio system and we know we can't avoid it. That blows! Then I thought maybe it would be more fruitful to try to turn it into a positive. That's why I asked about video reenforcing the quality of audio. Has this idea been explored? Has anyone investigated the deliberate manipulation of things like bias effects and McGurk effect?

Maybe you can have the best of both worlds. Maybe you can have your sense of freedom and empowerment and have the bliss too. I tend to enjoy a good magic show and I know it's all an illusion. I don't think that means buying a 10,000 dollar cable is a necessary evil. (I was shocked when I saw some of the prices of cables!) But maybe it does mean something like buying a cable with a red cover instead of buying one with a blue cover might make a positive difference in one's enjoyment without paying ridiculous prices.

Sorry if I am taking this thread off the proverbial rails. It's all a lot to digest and think about.


Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #177 –
It is the thinking that rainbows are actually there that is the problem. It is idiotic to continue to believe they are actually there after it is demonstrated to be an illusion.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #178 –
Quote
I prefer not to be ignorant, even if it means losing some bliss. Instead, I feel I gain a sense of empowerment and freedom.


Sounds like your biases are talking here.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #179 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Quote
I prefer not to be ignorant, even if it means losing some bliss. Instead, I feel I gain a sense of empowerment and freedom.


Sounds like your biases are talking here.


"Ignorance is Strength." - Eric Blair

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #181 –
In my own (admittedly limited) experience, I have been unable to discern any difference in sound amongst the few different types of speaker/audio cables I have tried/used.  a LOT of the marketing and claims seem like Monster/Bose style hype to me.

Similarly, the incredible "variety" and pricing of HDMI cables smacks of companies taking advantage of ill or uninformed consumers.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #182 –
I don't know what kind of bias you're talking about, but cognitive bias is:

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Cognitive Biases are systematic errors that predispose one's thinking in favor of a certain viewpoint over other viewpoints. The scientific method developed, among other reasons, to counteract these biases in order to derive objective knowledge.


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Cognitive bias describes the inherent thinking errors that humans make in processing information. Some of these have been verified empirically in the field of psychology, while others are considered general categories of bias. These thinking errors prevent one from accurately understanding reality, even when confronted with all the needed data and evidence to form an accurate view.


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Cognitive bias is a general term that is used to describe many observer effects in the human mind, some of which can lead to perceptual distortion, inaccurate judgment, or illogical interpretation.
"I hear it when I see it."

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #183 –
Quote from: Heisenberg on
Quote from: Ed Seedhouse on

This is old stuff, you know.  Stage magicians have made a living off of this for a couple of hundred years now, for instance.  You must understand that you are easy to fool as is every other human being.  The person who believes he can't be fooled is in fact the easiest to actually fool if you know just a little bit about how the human mind work.  Even knowing that you can easily be fooled doesn't prevent you from being fooled, but it does make it just a little bit harder for the fooler.


I suppose I am fairly uneducated on both human physiology and psychology. So it does seem weird. I guess if it's "old stuff" to you it would seem less weird. I get the stage magician analogy but I think it is fair to say that once a magician shows you the trick you see it for what it is the second time around.


But whether it is fair to say that or not, it is demonstrably false to say it.  Many illusions are highly persistent even when you know perfectly well that you are being fooled.

The fact that you are able to read these words shows that.  There are actually no "words" and no "letters" on the screen before you.  What is actually there is a series of tiny dots if you are viewing a Liquid Crystal display, or a single tiny dot moving extremely fast if you are viewing a CRT display.  That fact that I know perfectly well that the words I am typing are not physically there does not prevent me from seeing them!

Many of the things that make our lives more pleasant are based entirely on the fallible nature of our brains which makes it possible to reliably fool them.  That fallible nature can be used for good or for ill.  The best, but by no means perfect, defense against ill uses is the knowledge that you are, indeed, easy to fool.  Consider moving pictures and stereophonic sound - two illusions which, used well, make our lives better.

Next time you watch a lovely sunset consider, if you will, that in actuality the sun is not setting at all and that it is physically well below your horizon as you see it "set".  That doesn't make a sunset any less beautiful!



Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #184 –
Hang on...

Rainbows are there. They are just as much there as a projected slide image is there on the screen. Nobody tries to walk into the slide image, and only in fairy tales does anybody seek the gold at the end of a rainbow --- but it is still there.

Apparently, mirages are there too. They are not the visible result of a mind demented with desire for palm trees, beautiful women and, err... camels, but the visible result of the bending of light.
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #185 –
I was waiting for that reply shortly after I made my post.  There is no physically tangible stationary rainbow.  But if I didn't do a good job getting that across or the analogy is still fatally flawed, I gladly retract it.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #186 –
Quote from: greynol on
I was waiting for that reply shortly after I made my post.  There is no physically tangible stationary rainbow.  But if I didn't do a good job getting that across or the analogy is still fatally flawed, I gladly retract it.


Well, I think that the concept of a "mind" that is separate and apart from the "world" is the main cause of the confusion myself.  That and the fact that our common language does not necessarily do a very good job of describing the "real" world so when we talk about "exists" and "not exist" and stuff like that we get into all sorts of confusion because of the roughness of our linguistic tools. But this isn't the philosophy forum...
Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #187 –
Quote from: greynol on
It is the thinking that rainbows are actually there that is the problem. It is idiotic to continue to believe they are actually there after it is demonstrated to be an illusion.

Oh. I didn't get that was what you meant. Thanks for clarifying.


Does that mean unicorns aren't real? 

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #188 –


Sorry, but it just fits so well with the off-topic.


"I hear it when I see it."

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #190 –
Quote from: greynol on
I can't speak for everyone, nor will I attempt to, but personally I don't necessarily always fit into Arny's stereotype.  I would also like to add that I concur with what I've heard from James Johnston (the "JJ" I referenced earlier who is known as "Woodinville" on this forum), a reputable expert in psychoacoustics (to paraphrase, even if badly): if you are lead to believe there are no audible differences between two test subjects then your brain can be steered into not hearing any.


I'd like to see the research on that.

What I'd expect to see , if true, is subjects tending to report more false negatives on difference tests, after having been told that A and B should not sound different (or being told A and B are 'the same').


Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #192 –
Quote from: 4season on
Quote from: Heisenberg on
Has anyone investigated the deliberate manipulation of things like bias effects...?

There's a whole industry devoted to it: It's called "Marketing".


I'm not talking about selling product. I'm talking about taking advantage of the things that create bias effects that cause an illusion of better sound in the design of components that otherwise should sound the same when bias effects are removed.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #193 –
Quote from: krabapple on
I'd like to see the research on that.

I know nothing about the research, but I can tell you that he said it at 2:40 into Ethan Winer's Audio Myths Workshop video.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #194 –
Quote from: Heisenberg on
I'm talking about taking advantage of the things that create bias effects that cause an illusion of better sound in the design of components that otherwise should sound the same when bias effects are removed.

It seems you're still only talking about physical product appearance, brand name, price, the way it is presented and the marketing behind it.  You're probably only going to have a priori knowledge of portions of the electrical design through marketing.  Anything in the design that can't otherwise be known a priori can't possibly contribute to expectation bias.

What am I missing?  How do you know about design specifics without marketing, reviews (more marketing) and what the sales guy tells you, assuming you didn't already have a peek under the hood?

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #195 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: Heisenberg on
I'm talking about taking advantage of the things that create bias effects that cause an illusion of better sound in the design of components that otherwise should sound the same when bias effects are removed.

It seems you're still only talking about physical product appearance, brand name, price, the way it is presented and the marketing behind it.  You're probably only going to have a priori knowledge of portions of the electrical design through marketing.  Anything in the design that can't otherwise be known a priori can't possibly contribute to expectation bias.

What am I missing?  How do you know about design specifics without marketing, reviews (more marketing) and what the sales guy tells you, assuming you didn't already have a peek under the hood?


I suspect I am only talking about the physical appearance. Size, weight, finish. I don't know though, maybe there are other aspects of a product that would affect bias. Has this side of audio been researched? Given the fact that any product is going to create some sort of bias one way or another is this something that has been tested? Of course marketing can also be a factor since through marketing a maker could talk about design, parts, yadda yadda yadda. I guess though the real question is are there certain aspects of a component that yield consistent bias effects? For instance do bigger heavier electronics consistently yield more positive biases? Do certain colors or shapes do that? I am pretty sure food manufacturers do a lot of research in that area. Has anyone in audio?


Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #196 –
Quote from: Heisenberg on
I'm not talking about selling product.


The selling of products and the creation of illusory perceptions about them are difficult to separate. This is true whether the product has any reliable benefits or not. One saying is "Sell the sizzle, not the steak". Illusions are commonly used to enhance the salability of sorts of things from cheap to expensive, trivial to comprehensive.

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I'm talking about taking advantage of the things that create bias effects that cause an illusion of better sound in the design of components that otherwise should sound the same when bias effects are removed.


It is endemic in modern society. The rise of advertising in the 18th and 19th centuries spurred this. We really don't know that much about advertising in pre-literate and pre-media societies due to the lack of tangible records. Blame Gutenberg.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #197 –
Quote from: Heisenberg on
I guess though the real question is are there certain aspects of a component that yield consistent bias effects?


The years I have spent on online audio forums have convinced me of that.

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For instance do bigger heavier electronics consistently yield more positive biases?


Right. The entry of audio gear based on switchmode power supplies and power amps are probably lagging because of negative perceptions based on the absence of weight.

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Do certain colors or shapes do that?


There is no functional reason for audio gear to be almost always black or silver, yet they dominate.

If you look inside most modern audio electronics they are big empty boxes. Lots of dead air.

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I am pretty sure food manufacturers do a lot of research in that area. Has anyone in audio?


I'm sure that there has been tons of research, whether explicit or implicit in this area. By implicit research I mean those situations when manufacturers (like Apple and Beats) release gear that breaks the pre-existing mold.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #199 –
Quote from: Heisenberg on
I guess though the real question is are there certain aspects of a component that yield consistent bias effects? For instance do bigger heavier electronics consistently yield more positive biases? Do certain colors or shapes do that? I am pretty sure food manufacturers do a lot of research in that area. Has anyone in audio?
You're asking if there is market research in audio.
Yes, of course there is. Companies with good marketing departments do this.