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Topic: Audio Cable Hate? (Read 68660 times) previous topic - next topic
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Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #100 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: ncolombo on
You cloth-eared bints

Quote from: 4season on
you uncouth dullard

You were close.


For reference:
Merriam-Webster's top 10 rare and amusing insults
Merriam-Webster's top 10 rare and amusing insults, vol. 2
and for the true renaissance man:
Merriam-Webster's top 10 sophisticated insults

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #101 –
Quote from: 2tec on
Evidently it's just as difficult to illustrtate why it's futile to deny that people pay to be fooled as it would be to illustrate to the fool why they are a fool.

Your attempts at illustrating that are futile because that is not the case. Cable buyers don't pay to be fooled. They pay because they are fooled.
"I hear it when I see it."

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #102 –
Quote from: ncolombo on
From... an audio engineer, electrical engineer, studio engineer and reluctant audiophile...

I have interviewed and hired several top-notch electrical engineers over the last 40 years, and all I have to say is...don't bother sending me your resume. You obviously slept through whatever school you went to.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #103 –
Quote from: ncolombo on
From... an audio engineer, electrical engineer, studio engineer and reluctant audiophile...


Why is it people that are just about to talk a load of rubbish always start by stating what they apparently do for a living. And when they do so you immediately wouldn't ever hire that person?

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #104 –
Quote from: 2tec on
The topic of this thread is "Audio Cable Hate". I tried to show why rationalists shouldn't really "hate" expensive cable promoters; as much as they believe it's a fraud. Actually the sellers are only inevitably servicing a market of overly-affluent magical thinkers who prefer ego gratification over rational understanding.



LOL, ok, condescension good,  hate bad.

Whatever, dude. 

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #105 –
Quote from: ncolombo on
Speaker Cable: Resistance is not worth calculating... 2mm squared or 14 AWG is sufficient for most speaker cable applications. But(!) a single round 2 mm sq. or 14 AWG conductor will attenuate high frequencies (audio) and this is measurable and audible. What is the electrical characteristic that is measurable? The AC Resistance known as Inductance… 


Note to self: Stop wrapping excess 250' lengths of speaker wire around ferrite bobbins.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #106 –
Quote from: ncolombo on
From... an audio engineer, electrical engineer, studio engineer and reluctant audiophile...
 
Are you people totally serious? Do you think that electrical theory and measurement ends with Ohm's Law?


I'm totally serious about most people here knowing very well that electrical theory and measurement don't end with Ohm's Law.

Here's a friendly tip. Before coming into an online forum and trying to nail your theses to the wall, lurk for a little while and see where the people are coming from.

IOW, look before you leap.

Quote
Your contributions to this forum are ignorant and ill-informed.


Back at you, but I'll illustrate it with your own words, and reliable sources.

Quote
I could write for hours, but I'll keep it to a few inarguable facts.

AES Papers: Lipschitz and Vanderkooy. Under dynamic music conditions ... a change of just 2dB is audible to most listeners, not just to audiophiles.


Please cite where they were ill-advised enough to say something like that.  I know these men personally, have spent hours with them on numerous occasions, and they just aren't as poorly informed as the above seems to make them appear to be.

Quote
 The National Bureau of Standards and Measurements: 1930's... The DC to AC Resistance Ratio shows clear attenuation in a conductor greater than 1 mm or 18 AWG in a copper conductor. There's the 'skin-effect' and then there's the 'skin-depth ratio'. A stranded conductor is more resistive than a solid-core conductor of the same conductive mass.


Actually there are two clear sources of measurable  high frequency attenuation in wire that relate to this discussion and one is inductance, and the other is skin effect.  Both scale linearly with the length of the wire and depending on length and configuration of the cable range from trivial to function-destroying.  The above comments don't cover these basics, so the entrance exam was failed.

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 A conductor made of silver can not be matched in 'linearity of amplitude versus frequency' by simply increasing the size of a copper conductor. If the copper conductor increases in diameter, the high frequencies will attenuate further.


Pretty much the same thing happens with any nonferrous conductor, because skin effect is a magnetic effect.  The above comments don't cover these basics, so the entrance exam was failed again.

Quote
Learn something about skin-depth ratio and non-uniform current versus frequency distribution in a wire made of any metal.


This reference might help: https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_...fect/page2.html

Quote
 
Speaker Cable: Resistance is not worth calculating... 2mm squared or 14 AWG is sufficient for most speaker cable applications. But(!) a single round 2 mm sq. or 14 AWG conductor will attenuate high frequencies (audio) and this is measurable and audible.
 

This would be the third time you didn't mention the fact that most of these losses scale with length and vary with the configuration of the cable, whether it is twisted pair, untwisted, coax, etc.

Quote
 
What is the electrical characteristic that is measurable? The AC Resistance known as Inductance... 
 


Umm skin effect is measurable too, and which one dominates whether resistance, inductance, or skin effect depends on the length and configuration of the cable as well as the frequency of the signal.

Quote
 
Low Level Interconnect (RCA) Cables: For every doubling of the length of the interconnect, the high frequency bandwidth is reduced by a full octave.
 

The above statement suggests to me that some time spent in the lap doing real-world measurements on real world cables would be in order.

Quote
 
You cloth-eared bints. Every doubling of Capacitance will reduce the high-frequency bandwidth by a full octave. Is Capacitance important in a low-level signal interface... in an RCA Interconnect ? I just told you so.
 

Again the effect of cable capacitance varies with source impedance, frequency, configuration and length of the cable. The above seems to leave out most of these things - another failure!


Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #107 –
Quote from: 2tec on
The topic of this thread is "Audio Cable Hate". I tried to show why rationalists shouldn't really "hate" expensive cable promoters; as much as they believe it's a fraud. ...


You might have tried: you failed. At least as far as I'm concerned.
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #108 –
Quote from: 2tec on
The topic of this thread is "Audio Cable Hate". I tried to show why rationalists shouldn't really "hate" expensive cable promoters; as much as they believe it's a fraud. ...


You haven't shown any evidence that this supposed "hate" exists in the first place.  You've placed the cart before the horse.
Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #109 –
Quote from: Ed Seedhouse on
You haven't shown any evidence that this supposed "hate" exists in the first place.

Not to mention it should be acquired double blind and statistically significant!
Perhaps he meant subjectively?

Now where did Chuck go? Fishing perhaps?

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #110 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
This reference might help: https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_...fect/page2.html



For the order of magnitude:
[blockquote]In effect, therefore, the above differential group delay is equivalent to a sound source that seems 16 microns nearer at high audible frequencies than at low audible frequencies.[/blockquote]
Human hair, for comparison: http://midwoodscience.org/?p=1136

But, at http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/SpeedofSound.html (bottom-right) there is a very rough graph of speed of sound depending on humidity and frequency. Despite the low resolution, the frequency dependence is (relatively) much more pronounced in high humidity, right? And then the high frequency hits us first. Which is the same direction as in the skin effect reference Arnold points to.

Now if we assume for the sake of the discussion that a skin effect equivalent to a distance-difference a fraction of a human hair would be audible - that would correspond to hearing the humidity in the concert hall? And, long-term listening to a lower skin-effect cable would only correspond to long-term listening to music recorded in oh-so-slightly drier air, right? Meaning, there is no way to tell that this is an "inaccurate" reproduction by listening to the recording only?

So if this were audible, how come we do not observe golden ears
(I) pinning down the air humidity of concert halls from listening to the recordings?
(II) insisting on ABXing, because a "better" cable A cannot be distinguished from drier weather - only by directly comparing to a "more humid-sounding and therefore inferior" cable B?

If you in the future hear stories about golden ears giving away their concert tickets because of "cheap cable weather forecasts" - remember where you read it first 

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #111 –
I have had, on a couple of occasions, lost a connection with the very cheapest, thinnest giveaway wires. This was after moving things about quite a bit, especially with some Tandy cables. I don't advocate spending big on 'name' products, but just spending a very small amount extra on something with more strands of metal and some strain relief moulding on the plug isn't a bad idea (and good for peace of mind). Very annoying to lose a channel in the middle of recording something.

Richer Sounds used to give you free speaker cable when you bought speakers from them (QED 79-Strand, IIRC). I can't remember if they did the same with interconnects.

However, the problems I had were at least 20 years ago, and the ultra-basic stuff may be better made these days.

The same also happened with a TV aerial cable, also with only a few strands of wire inside. I had an indoor aerial at the time, and it got moved around a lot to find a decent signal for different stations, leading to a broken connection in the cable.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #112 –
The thing is that you can get "good" cables for cheap. Sure, you can measure differences between coathangers and speaker cables, but both can be had for little money. The believers want you to believe that you really need to spend a lot to get those cryogenically, mermaid tears treated, directional, shrink tubing or fancy woven jacket super duper cables.

I highly doubt anyone here is using solid mains wire to power their passive speakers.
"I hear it when I see it."

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #113 –
Quote from: ncolombo on
From... an audio engineer, electrical engineer, studio engineer and reluctant audiophile...
.
.
The AC Resistance known as Inductance... 
.
. 
Please consider this before making ridiculous statements based up no knowledge or experience.


For me, this is the one area where you shot yourself in the foot. After claiming your status you then proclaim something which is not true and afterwards imply that we are ignorant.

As for the "cable hate", I don't perceive any on here. The hate, if that's the right word, is directed at the scamming of people who do not know better. I've never seen anyone on here deny the right of someone to buy outrageously-priced cables if they so wish, as an informed choice.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #114 –
Quote from: xnor on
I highly doubt anyone here is using solid mains wire to power their passive speakers.

Guilty as charged, m'lud. No, I'm not joking.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #115 –
Quote from: xnor on
I highly doubt anyone here is using solid mains wire to power their passive speakers.


I've done it.  Nothing bad happened.

Most of the advantages of stranded wire are purely mechanical.

Note that some golden ears hate stranded wire due to the inter-strand rectification myth.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #116 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I've done it.  Nothing bad happened.

Most of the advantages of stranded wire are purely mechanical.

Of course not, of course it works, and of course are the effects exaggerated by audiophiles. Attenuation probably was only a small fraction of a dB at 20 kHz.

Mechanical advantages and low price of such wire generally are exactly the reasons why I assumed most if not all of you are not using solid wire.


Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Note that some golden ears hate stranded wire due to the inter-strand rectification myth.

Yeah and if you buy directional cables you clearly need 2 in parallel. One for the electrons to travel to the speaker, and one to travel back.
"I hear it when I see it."

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #117 –
Here is a reason why I vehemently dislike placebophiles:
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=178099

You read something in the hopes that you can get some infornation about the sound of speakers and then all credibility is lost when one of the main contributors talks about replacing the connection wire. When a follow-up encourages more BS rather than calling out BS, you begin to wonder whether the site is a reliable source of information for anything.

The "you" in this case is me, of course.

PS: I also find the responses about whether the cabinet uses MDF somewhat amusing.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #118 –
Quote from: xnor on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I've done it.  Nothing bad happened.

Most of the advantages of stranded wire are purely mechanical.

Of course not, of course it works, and of course are the effects exaggerated by audiophiles. Attenuation probably was only a small fraction of a dB at 20 kHz.


That's a myth, too. There is no difference re: inductance or skin effect related to solid versus stranded wire. Skin effect like inductance is related to magnetic fields which jump the gaps between the strands just fine. Standed wire is a tad larger for the same copper per foot, but that is truly a vanishing effect.

Anybody who is really worried about Skin Effect uses hollow conductors, and that they do early and often, for example with the minor trunk lines of cable TV systems. The major trunks are typically optical fiber.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #119 –
Simply cite the Greiner papers from 35 years ago, and let people either learn something or go on being ignorant. You can fix ignorance but you can't fix intellectual incuriosity. Just my opinion.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #120 –
Quote from: SIY on
Simply cite the Greiner papers from 35 years ago, and let people either learn something or go on being ignorant. You can fix ignorance but you can't fix intellectual incuriosity. Just my opinion.



Interesting that the Greiner Papers mention thermal modulation due to voice coil heating which is both measurable and of such a magnitude (up to several dB) that it could be audible.  Let me recall the last time some golden ear ragazine mentioned that one!  ;-)

Interestingly enough voice coil heating could be addressed with minimal added hardware, especially in active speakers.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #121 –
Where I started losing my own audiophile faith in fancy wires and connectors:

I was assembling a new phono lead to go from my turntable's tonearm to the preamp and didn't have a capacitance meter at the time. So I emailed the audiophile cable manufacturer's tech support (let's call them Brand C) for the capacitance spec, and they didn't know it. 

Same company offers beautiful RCA plugs and jacks machined from copper billet and plated with rhodium silver alloy and I bought a bunch. And within a few years found myself frequently jiggling connectors to restore signal. Bad design, bad choice of materials, they relied on exact fit between plug and jack because the soft base metal they were using had no springiness. And being soft copper, the mating surfaces eroded pretty quickly. No signal = 100% distortion in my book, so these connectors actually performed worse than the "junk" I used to sneer at. Meanwhile, I had some "bad" RCAs on the back of my old Advent receiver: Tin-plated steel by the looks of it (magnetic no less). But funny thing: Aside from a light cleaning on occasion I did nothing with them, and they worked great. I was so happy that I had never gotten around to "upgrading" them.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #122 –
Quote from: greynol on
Here is a reason why I vehemently dislike placebophiles:
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=178099


LOL, had no idea the madness had spread to guitar speakers. Guitar speakers! 
Hmmm, there might be a fortune awaiting someone who starts selling those magic wood blocks to put under the cabinets....
Are cable lifters used for the fancy wires between guitar and amp?

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #123 –
Quote from: 2tec on
With all due respect, nobody is being forced to buy this stuff. I can only assume they want to be fooled.

Now who's being dismissive and condescending?

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I just don't see this as fraud but rather diversity in an open market. Yes, the claims are not credible, however, some people clearly like being mislead.

Have you asked those people if they like being mislead?

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Is this really wrong?

I think it is wrong to scam others, yes. Of course.

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Sorry, I just see this as people trying to find happiness in whatever way they can. I just don't see why it's so upsetting to others despite that fact it's clearly bogus. At worst, it's harmless in my opinion and at best, it makes some people happy.

Again, I think this is condescending. Do you really think most people's happiness is dependent on audio equipment in any appreciable degree? Maybe to some, but not to for instance, my coworker who bought the $120 Monster HDMI cable and others like him, who I may be so bold to think are not a minority.

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Perhaps there's a need for an invitation only HA forum where credible members could discussion issues without the distraction of the general public.

Oh, yes, the elite, the Ones who can grasp logic and reason.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #124 –
Quote from: 2tec on
People go to magic shows, we all know it's not real ... but the illusions are an experience. People buy magic cables to fool themselves into having a magical experience. Say what you will, magic can be entertaining. I guess it's hard for some people to see the power of imagination and the placebo effect. Belief can certainly color experience. Go ahead, deny things you can't easily quantify. That's fine by me. I understand the importance and the necessity of the scientific process. However, ordinary people seem to actually love to live in denial and fantasy. Just look at politics and the movie business.

Funny, professional magician and skeptic par excellence James Randi makes the same analogy, but only to point the crucial difference (which I'd think it's obvious but apparently not) and make the opposite point as you. It's even implied in the title of his new documentary http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2246565/

People go to those kind of magic shows (at least most people) expecting tricks (or, "illusions, Michael"), not real, Harry Potter magic. Ironically enough, similarly-themed scam artists like the mentioned above Silvia Browne, John Edward and Uri Geller perform amazingly lame tricks compared to professional magicians, they wouldn't make a dime actually entertaining people in a magic show.