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Topic: Audio Cable Hate? (Read 68685 times) previous topic - next topic
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Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #125 –
Quote from: andy o on
People go to those kind of magic shows (at least most people) expecting tricks (or, "illusions, Michael"), not real, Harry Potter magic. Ironically enough, similarly-themed scam artists like the mentioned above Silvia Browne, John Edward and Uri Geller perform amazingly lame tricks compared to professional magicians, they wouldn't make a dime actually entertaining people in a magic show.


Trying desperately to get back on topic, do people buy *better* or *good* audio gear to obtain the illusion of better sound, or actually wish to obtain better sound.

My experience is that:

I find from the audio forums that people who are true believers in magic cable generally believe that their perception of better sound due to magic cables is firmly rooted in reality and even based on good technology.

Of course reproduced sound is a kind of illusion of its own, but can we get that piece of sophistry?

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #126 –
Quote from: andy o on
Oh, yes, the elite, the Ones who can grasp logic and reason.


Unfortunately reading the news I am getting increasingly convinced that that is a very small (and decreasing) proportion of humanity.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #127 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I find from the audio forums that people who are true believers in magic cable generally believe that their perception of better sound due to magic cables is firmly rooted in reality and even based on good technology.


At the same time, people who are true believers in magic cable also generally believe that their perception of sound is superior to the average person.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #128 –
Quote from: julf on
people who are true believers in magic cable also generally believe that their perception of sound is superior to the average person.

Prove that they aren't!!!

Ooops, sorry that was kinda hateful. My bad.
Anyone seen Charlie at sea?

cheers,

AJ

Loudspeaker manufacturer

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #129 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
LOL, had no idea the madness had spread to guitar speakers. Guitar speakers!

Hand-wired vs. PCB
Brand of capacitors
General hatred of SS and even greater hatred of digital.

Some places are just too thick for comfort, especially forums where a large chunk of the membership is comprised of openly religious right-wing folk, typically from the South-Eastern US (sorry, AJ).

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #130 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: andy o on
People go to those kind of magic shows (at least most people) expecting tricks (or, "illusions, Michael"), not real, Harry Potter magic. Ironically enough, similarly-themed scam artists like the mentioned above Silvia Browne, John Edward and Uri Geller perform amazingly lame tricks compared to professional magicians, they wouldn't make a dime actually entertaining people in a magic show.


Trying desperately to get back on topic, do people buy *better* or *good* audio gear to obtain the illusion of better sound, or actually wish to obtain better sound.

My experience is that:

I find from the audio forums that people who are true believers in magic cable generally believe that their perception of better sound due to magic cables is firmly rooted in reality and even based on good technology.

Of course reproduced sound is a kind of illusion of its own, but can we get that piece of sophistry?


If you truly trust your ears and what you are hearing, there is no need to be blind to make an accurate assessment.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #133 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: xnor on
I highly doubt anyone here is using solid mains wire to power their passive speakers.


I've done it.  Nothing bad happened.

Most of the advantages of stranded wire are purely mechanical.


I did too once in the previous millennium. They were durable, manteled (= shielded, I presumed), cost the same for the copper as speaker cables - and since they were thick and somewhat unruly, people did from the distance mistake them for something expensive. Perfect! 

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #134 –
When a group of people feels personally attacked just when you don't accept their baseless claims, you know what's up.
"I hear it when I see it."

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #135 –
Quote from: Yahzi on
If you truly trust your ears and what you are hearing, there is no need to be blind to make an accurate assessment.


The brain is generally accepted to be the most powerful organ in the body, and most definitely not the ears.

Therefore, not being very powerful, ears are not to be trusted. Alternatively, if they were trustworthy, they lack the power to make that stick.

Due to its high levels of complexity and unpredictability, the brain is most definitely not to be trusted.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #136 –
Quote from: Yahzi on
If you truly don't trust your ears and what you are hearing, there is no need to be blind peeking to make an accurate assessment.
FIFY.
You're welcome.

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #138 –
Does the perception of the eye influence the SQ perceived by the ear? i.e. as the nose does with taste, and if these influence each other, can the eye and ear also?

Are only the blind then capable of discerning true differences in SQ?

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #139 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Does the perception of the eye influence the SQ perceived by the ear? i.e. as the nose does with taste, and if these influence each other, can the eye and ear also?


Watch the McGurk Effect video on Youtube and see if you think vision has an influence on hearing.

Quote
Are only the blind then capable of discerning true differences in SQ?
That's exactly why we conduct blind, ideally double blind tests, plus the person's vision isn't permanently harmed.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #140 –
Vision is not part of hearing, but can have an influence. The McGurk effect demonstrates how the brain is a pattern recognition machine and deals with conflicting perceptions.
When you clearly see lips saying "faa" but hear something similar yet different, the brain tries to make sense of it by also hearing a "faa".

It confuses the brain because naturally you never see anyone's lips saying "faa" but making a different sound. If the same lip movements could mean anything then I guess your hearing would take preference.


Blind testing has nothing to do with being literally blind, that's nonsense. It just means that you don't know e.g. which device is currently playing. A towel hiding the devices is enough to hide that information from you, no need to wear a blindfold.
Also, clueless people sometimes say that in a blind test you are taking away vision from the participants. That's the same nonsense.

If anything, people choose to close their eyes on their own to better concentrate on the recording. I know I do it sometimes, when enjoying a good song.
"I hear it when I see it."

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #141 –
Quote from: ncolombo on
Speaker Cable: Resistance is not worth calculating... 2mm squared or 14 AWG is sufficient for most speaker cable applications. But(!) a single round 2 mm sq. or 14 AWG conductor will attenuate high frequencies (audio) and this is measurable and audible.
0.01dB at 20kHz, last time I checked.

While it is possible to measure it, many routine audio measurements aren't that accurate. It's a 0.1% variation. People often measure at that accuracy (or better) for distortion, but not for frequency-amplitude response. I wonder why that is?

As for claiming it's "audible": 0.01dB at 20kHz!?

Cheers,
David.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #142 –
Quote from: 2tec on
sigh ... if people want to buy expensive looking cables for an expensive looking system, so what? If it allows them to think it sounds better, why not? How much crap is there out there simply for people to buy what pleases them to believe in? Personally, I'm tired of all the audiophile hate going on here. If people want to believe in marketing hype, whatever your feelings, that is their right. There's really no reason to be so dismissive when every single one of us likely has some so-called unscientific beliefs.

Most people buy music systems for enjoyment; the appearance, and even the placebo effect, are simply part of that experience. Leave science in the laboratory, where it belongs. ;~)

Being irrational is not the same as denying reality. You can be irrational but admit you are, that's facing reality. I do everything I can to make sure my beliefs are rooted in reality with evidence when possible. In the long run knowing all the facts helps us make the best decisions. One may still decide to buy a cable despite knowing it makes no difference in sound, but knowing that is still a good thing. Living in ignorance is bad.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #143 –
So am I right in thinking that you have one output which is the sound ... and you have many different inputs which can be thoughts and suggestions, mood, price, size, looks etc  which influence what we hear? The idea is to isolate the inputs from affecting the output?

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #144 –
Well there is sensory input. With audio what matters is ... big surprise ... hearing. A blind person can enjoy a nice hifi system just like any other.
Why do people hear so many differences then? Biases, that influence what you believe to hear and which conclusions you draw.
Mere expectations can deceive you. Case in point: tuning EQ sliders only to notice later that the EQ was on bypass the whole time ...  How would a customer react that requests more bass from a mix, but you send him exactly the same file as before with the explanation "well, I heard a difference"?

By just taking away the information which cable you are listening to, you are eliminating many biases. That's how you can consistently show that no audible differences can be detected.
"I hear it when I see it."

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #145 –
>  and you have many different inputs which can be thoughts and suggestions, mood, price, size, looks etc which influence what we hear? The idea is to isolate the inputs from affecting the output?

Short answer: yes.

Also known as the scientific method.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #146 –
Quote from: Yahzi on
So am I right in thinking that you have one output which is the sound ... and you have many different inputs which can be thoughts and suggestions, mood, price, size, looks etc  which influence what we hear? The idea is to isolate the inputs from affecting the output?


No, those are all 'inputs'.  The 'output' is the conscious report of 'difference'  or 'preference'.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #147 –
Quote from: Yahzi on
So am I right in thinking that you have one output which is the sound ... and you have many different inputs which can be thoughts and suggestions, mood, price, size, looks etc  which influence what we hear? The idea is to isolate the inputs from affecting the output?



????


The input and output of every conventional audio cable known to man are electrical signals.

There are simply no significant mysteries as to how to contrive them or how to measure them.

Why all of the apparent pontification?

 

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #149 –
It's not nearly as simple as five senses though, there is speech processing, pattern recognition, and the brain can synthesise pretty much any sound it wants to. Auditory hallucinations are a fairly common phenomena, even multiple voices talking to each other. I've heard the most amazing music while asleep (dreaming) - the brain can produce its own input when it wants to. There can even be cross-talk between senses, in some cases hearing sights or seeing sounds (Synesthesia).

This is why saying that a monster audio cable does not produce an audibly different signal is not the same as saying that a human cannot hear a difference using a monster cable. It's quite possible that the person actually does hear a difference, even if the signal is exactly the same.

The problem is the rationalist says:
"The signal is not audibly different, therefore you cannot hear a difference."

and the cable guy says:
"I can hear a difference, therefore this cable must be having an effect even if you are unable to scientifically account for it."

Obviously these two viewpoints cannot be reconciled, but I contend that instead:
"The signal is not audibly different, but it's possible you hear a difference anyway because brains are freaking' weird."

Of course it's also possible people only think they hear a difference but actually don't. I think it's most likely a bit of both. Some would actually hear an imaginary difference, while others would imagine they hear an actual difference.