Skip to main content ↑ ↓

Notice

Please note that most of the software linked on this forum is likely to be safe to use. If you are unsure, feel free to ask in the relevant topics, or send a private message to an administrator or moderator. To help curb the problems of false positives, or in the event that you do find actual malware, you can contribute through the article linked here.
Topic: Audio Cable Hate? (Read 68662 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #75 –
Quote from: Thad E Ginathom on
Many of the sellers should be prosecuted. Sadly, the law has more imprtant things to worry about --- although I did hear of a British company being taken to court for making unsustainable claims for one of its products.

Quote from: copperblue on
Russ Andrews Cables

Quote from: ajinfla on
Special shout out to Russ!


Hey ho, I even bought a Russ Andrews power cord once, and can testify that the major difference it makes is that it doesn't grip very well. ie, it does not satisfy the basic, physical requirements. Of course, I should have sent it back, but I guess I fooled myself in some way, at the time. I still have it. But then, I still have a lot of power cords.
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #76 –
While I have a very low opinion of the marketing departments of the cable companies themselves, my greatest contempt goes to the reviewers who gush about the magical properties of the cables. People turn to them for expert advice and instead get unsupportable claims about "widened soundstage" and "midrange graininess"  that are usually worse than the claims made by the companies themselves. And of course the level of fabrication always proportional to the price of the particular piece of snake-oil. The lack of professional integrity ("double-blind tests don't work for audio") is offensive. They are little more than paid liars.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #77 –
Quote from: 2tec on
I can only assume they want to be fooled.
That's a pretty bold assumption. Certainly pre-internet, it was very hard for people outside academia to learn about things that became the founding principles of HA.

Even now, the internet is a pretty big place. It would be quite easy to inhabit a part of it where such knowledge is really on the fringe, and only discussed with derision.

Even today, it is not general knowledge how easily fooled human senses are. I have heard of a couple of recent examples of serious respected "scientists" refusing to double-blind parts of their trials because "it was ridiculous to suggest that they could be biassed - they have training and 20 years experience." (The context of one of these was fingerprint analysis - google that + double blind and you might find it - I couldn't find the actual paper, but there are lots of discussions.) If some scientists still don't get it, what hope is there for regular people to realise that the improvements they hear in a demo of shiny new audio equipment sometimes have nothing to do with the sound reaching their ears?

I'll grant you that some people might not care if they're being fooled - they just want to have fun with their money and are quite happy to "waste" it experimenting - they're buying fun. I think most other "audiophiles" are trying to get the best sound they can for their money, while the industry (for obvious reasons) conspires to ensure this is a costly, never-ending search by eschewing evidence that could allow that search to reach a one-time* conclusion.

* - until the equipment breaks or becomes obsolete. Rather than until a sighted test convinces someone that something else sounds much better.

Cheers,
David.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #78 –
The scare quotes around "scientist" are appropriate- I've been a working scientist for nearly 40 years and have never met one who didn't understand the need for controls and double-blind protocols. I've read about a few making huge fools of themselves (e.g., Puthoff and Targ, Taylor, Josephson...), but what they all had in common was that they were working well outside of their fields of expertise and were too arrogant to learn something about magic or bring in someone who had that expertise. The other 99.9% are fully aware of how to do things properly- whether they choose to or not is a different question. As soon as you move over into the realm of lawyers, you've completely moved away from actual science. Fingerprints, bite-mark analysis, polygraphy- these aren't science by any means.


Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #79 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
Quote from: 2tec on
I can only assume they want to be fooled.
That's a pretty bold assumption. Certainly pre-internet, it was very hard for people outside academia to learn about things that became the founding principles of HA.

People go to magic shows, we all know it's not real ... but the illusions are an experience. People buy magic cables to fool themselves into having a magical experience. Say what you will, magic can be entertaining. I guess it's hard for some people to see the power of imagination and the placebo effect. Belief can certainly color experience. Go ahead, deny things you can't easily quantify. That's fine by me. I understand the importance and the necessity of the scientific process. However, ordinary people seem to actually love to live in denial and fantasy. Just look at politics and the movie business.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?  ;~)

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #80 –
Quote from: 2tec on
People go to magic shows, we all know it's not real ...


Tell that to the audiences of John Edward, Sylvia Browne, Uri Geller, James van Praagh...

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #81 –
Quote from: 2tec on
People go to magic shows, we all know it's not real ...

Cannot be said for all people, especially not in audio. We call it being mislead or deluded.


Quote from: 2tec on
but the illusions are an experience.

But most people don't go around spreading nonsense about how real magic? was used in the show.
There's still a pretty big New Age woo-woo industry out there. So enough people seem to be gullible enough.


Quote from: 2tec on
People buy magic cables to fool themselves into having a magical experience.

I don't believe that to be the case at all.
People are fooled into believing that cables make significant, real, physical differences in the audible range. It's called being deluded, resulting from gullibility, lack of skepticism and rational thinking abilities, peer pressure ...


Quote from: 2tec on
Say what you will, magic can be entertaining. I guess it's hard for some people to see the power of imagination and the placebo effect.

Yes, the believers readily deny the power of imagination and the placebo effect.
All here are very aware of a long list of biases, are you?


Quote from: 2tec on
Belief can certainly color experience. Go ahead, deny things you can't easily quantify. That's fine by me. People seem to actually love to live in denial and fantasy. Just look at the movie business.

Nobody here denies subjective experiences. We simply don't accept the outlandish claims and conclusions drawn on delusional, biased grounds. Those are not fine.

If a placebo pill works for 30% of patients, what does that make the other 70%? Are they not believing hard enough? What about those that experience a nocebo effect despite believing in it?
You are clearly talking nonsense when you mention denial.


PS: Why is it that the believers always try to turn their own BS around on the others, according to the motto: "you're doing it too, only much worse" or "you are in a much worse position because of ignorant and false reasons A, B, C ..."?
Is this some cognitive dissonance thing? Self-affirmation? Where are the psychologists HA?
"I hear it when I see it."

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #82 –
Quote from: drewfx on
Quote from: 2tec on
At worst, it's harmless in my opinion and at best, it makes some people happy.


What about the guy who's potentially getting less enjoyment out of his system because he doesn't have $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ lying around to spend on cables that make no difference, but is absolutely convinced he is missing something profound because of people blathering on endlessly about the huge differences caused by their placebos?

Or the people with better technical understandings who have to constantly waste their time arguing with people who have memorized falsehoods repeated so many times that they are utterly convinced that they are true?

And what about those of us who would like to have a discussion of things that are real amidst people who couldn't care less about reality?


IME none of the above situations lack for plentiful real-world examples.  I've hung around AVS for about a decade and I've seen the little dramas played out many times.

Of course cables are just the tip of the iceberg.

At its core audio can be a very competitive business. Rational consumers eat into the potential profits big time.  There is big money to be made by encouraging people to make bad technical/financial decisions.

As the twig is bent...

If a consumer can be weaned away from making rational choices in one area of audio, then he is often far more susceptible be distracted from making rational choices in others.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #83 –
Quote from: 2tec on
Just look at politics and the movie business.


Again, what has this got to do with scientific discussion of why expensive audio cables are no better than cheap ones? You now seem to be discussing magic and movies.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #84 –
Quote from: SIY on
The scare quotes around "scientist" are appropriate- I've been a working scientist for nearly 40 years and have never met one who didn't understand the need for controls and double-blind protocols. I've read about a few making huge fools of themselves (e.g., Puthoff and Targ, Taylor, Josephson...), but what they all had in common was that they were working well outside of their fields of expertise and were too arrogant to learn something about magic or bring in someone who had that expertise. The other 99.9% are fully aware of how to do things properly- whether they choose to or not is a different question. As soon as you move over into the realm of lawyers, you've completely moved away from actual science. Fingerprints, bite-mark analysis, polygraphy- these aren't science by any means.

And let's not forget Pons and Fleischmann.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #85 –
Quote from: pdq on
And let's not forget Pons and Fleischmann.


Indeed. And that's an example with which I'm intimately and painfully familiar. That was incompetence which evolved into knowing fraud, clearly evident when they avoided publishing the data from their critical control experiments.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #86 –
Quote from: probedb on
Quote from: 2tec on
Just look at politics and the movie business.


Again, what has this got to do with scientific discussion of why expensive audio cables are no better than cheap ones? You now seem to be discussing magic and movies.

As I've been trying to explain, magical thinking is why people buy expensive cables, which is why people sell them. Many people spend money simply to experience enjoyment, and some people don't want to be "brought down to earth" by the cold, hard facts. People like magic, they like thinking they are elite and special, and they buy stuff from people that reinforces this special self-image. People pay for that and for status. These are facts too, just not physical ones, these facts are psychological. Part of audio is physiological, which isn't an easily quantifiable branch of science as is acoustics.

While I'm at it, I'd remind people that expectation bias is the reason for double blind testing. Even scientists have to be careful of magical thinking. Science, in fact, is the attempt to separate the objective from the ordinary subjective experience. Some people simply don't have a "scientific" outlook. Indeed, some people reject science and prefer the world of magic. We may not agree with such an outlook, but it does exist.

Magical thinkers don't understand cold, hard rationalists, but seemingly this goes both ways. Rationalists have a hard time understanding the allure and power of fantasy and magic as part of the human experience. Misunderstanding often leads to contempt.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?  ;~)

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #87 –
Quote from: 2tec on
As I've been trying to explain, magical thinking is why people buy expensive cables, which is why people sell them.


That is not my understanding of magical thinking. Magical thinking is nothing to do with "Oh wow! Magic!" It is not even to do with necessarily positive, pleasurable or "magical" experiences. It is, simply, making a complete mess of appreciating cause and effect. Superstition is an example of magical thinking: really superstitious people do not even think of it as "superstition: they just had a good day because a black cat crossed in front of them and that is a fact. Magical thinkers are "cold, hard rationalists." It's just that they have a wrong connection or three in their rationalism.

Anyway, what is your real point here? Be kind to the crazy audiophiles: let them have their pleasures? Be kind to the scamsters: let them have their excess profits.



The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #88 –
Quote from: Thad E Ginathom on
Quote from: 2tec on
As I've been trying to explain, magical thinking is why people buy expensive cables, which is why people sell them.

Anyway, what is your real point here? Be kind to the crazy audiophiles: let them have their pleasures? Be kind to the scamsters: let them have their excess profits.

The topic of this thread is "Audio Cable Hate". I tried to show why rationalists shouldn't really "hate" expensive cable promoters; as much as they believe it's a fraud. Actually the sellers are only inevitably servicing a market of overly-affluent magical thinkers who prefer ego gratification over rational understanding. This leads some rationalists to be quite contemptuous of the promoters of expensive audio cables, and the like, but really, it's inevitable that such a market exists. It's simply human nature to take things as far as possible.

Magical Thinking
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?  ;~)

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #89 –
2tec, have you ever entered an audiophile cable forum and told these people about magical thinking? The placebo effect? Biases?
Give it a try... It won't take more than a few minutes to find out who's in denial.

(Not gonna dissect your previous post, since you don't seem to care about the answers. Physiology "isn't an easily quantifiable branch of science"? Really?)


The old saying goes: Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise.
"I hear it when I see it."

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #90 –
Quote from: 2tec on
As I've been trying to explain, magical thinking is why people buy expensive cables, which is why people sell them.


No it isn't. How many times do we have to explain this?

People buy these cables because they think they sound better. No other reason. You might get the odd one or two people that buy them purely for the bling factor but that's all.

They are sold because people will buy them.

What is all this magical stuff you've come up with?

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #91 –
Quote from: xnor on
2tec, have you ever entered an audiophile cable forum and told these people about magical thinking? The placebo effect? Biases?
Give it a try... It won't take more than a few minutes to find out who's in denial.

Evidently it's just as difficult to illustrtate why it's futile to deny that people pay to be fooled as it would be to illustrate to the fool why they are a fool.

Quote from: xnor on
(Not gonna dissect your previous post, since you don't seem to care about the answers. Physiology "isn't an easily quantifiable branch of science"? Really?)

If I didn't care, I wouldn't have bother to reply. If you can dissect it, please feel free. We both seem to have all day. BTW, physiology includes the placebo effect, care to quantify that?

Quote from: xnor on
The old saying goes: Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise.
\
Yes, but clearly not everyone is wise at all times, and folly can be fun.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?  ;~)

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #92 –
Quote from: probedb on
because they think they sound better.
They are sold because people will buy them.

Your first statement is "magical thinking" your second is why there will be promoters of such.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?  ;~)

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #93 –
Quote from: SIY on
Quote from: 2tec on
People go to magic shows, we all know it's not real ...

Tell that to the audiences of John Edward, Sylvia Browne, Uri Geller, James van Praagh...

Exactly my point, "we" here in this topic, know it's not real, however look at all the people who are attracted by such experiences. Clearly some people seek out and want to believe in the magical.

By the way, no, I wouldn't bother telling them, unless they asked. People are quite defensive when their beliefs are called into question.

An old saying goes, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink", which could also be stated as you can lead fools to the truth, but you can't make them think. People learn at their own pace or often, not at all.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?  ;~)
 

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #94 –
From... an audio engineer, electrical engineer, studio engineer and reluctant audiophile...
 
Are you people totally serious? Do you think that electrical theory and measurement ends with Ohm's Law?
 
Your contributions to this forum are ignorant and ill-informed. I could write for hours, but I'll keep it to a few inarguable facts.
AES Papers: Lipschitz and Vanderkooy. Under dynamic music conditions ... a change of just 2dB is audible to most listeners, not just to audiophiles. The National Bureau of Standards and Measurements: 1930's... The DC to AC Resistance Ratio shows clear attenuation in a conductor greater than 1 mm or 18 AWG in a copper conductor. There's the 'skin-effect' and then there's the 'skin-depth ratio'. A stranded conductor is more resistive than a solid-core conductor of the same conductive mass.
 
A conductor made of silver can not be matched in 'linearity of amplitude versus frequency' by simply increasing the size of a copper conductor. If the copper conductor increases in diameter, the high frequencies will attenuate further. Learn something about skin-depth ratio and non-uniform current versus frequency distribution in a wire made of any metal.
 
Speaker Cable: Resistance is not worth calculating... 2mm squared or 14 AWG is sufficient for most speaker cable applications. But(!) a single round 2 mm sq. or 14 AWG conductor will attenuate high frequencies (audio) and this is measurable and audible. What is the electrical characteristic that is measurable? The AC Resistance known as Inductance... 
 
Low Level Interconnect (RCA) Cables: For every doubling of the length of the interconnect, the high frequency bandwidth is reduced by a full octave. You cloth-eared bints. Every doubling of Capacitance will reduce the high-frequency bandwidth by a full octave. Is Capacitance important in a low-level signal interface... in an RCA Interconnect ? I just told you so.
 
Together, series Inductance and parallel Capacitance in audio cables create a low-pass filter... made all the more interesting and audible by variations in the output impedance and the input impedance of audio components. Higher resolution digital files are audibly superior to the red-book standard off 44.1 kHz. I work with these files on a daily basis and whenever I can, I will record live to 2-Track Analog.
 
Rolex: All swiss-movements (however absurdly expensive) are less accurate than a quartz movement. But an atomic clock is even more accurate... and guess what? We have developed very high frequency waves that can transmit a signal to your wristwatch. Perfect.
 
BMW: Of course. But if you can only afford 50 cents for a foot of speaker cable, then you probably will not get to drive any fine cars.
 
Seriously. You are never to old to learn. Please consider this before making ridiculous statements based up no knowledge or experience.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #95 –
Quote from: 2tec on
The topic of this thread is "Audio Cable Hate".

Yep and per script, impartial but slightly interested Charlie is MIA. 

Quote from: 2tec on
I tried to show why rationalists shouldn't really "hate" expensive cable promoters

Right, you accept the false premise as true, because you believe it to be true.
Which puts you squarely where? On the end of the derisive amusement, perceived as "hate" by the rational?

How do you perceive the Dunning-Kruger gangs venom about poor, jealous, deaf, close minded "meter readers"?
"Open minded" charm?

Why do some governments hate power bracelets? What harm have they done?

cheers,

AJ


Loudspeaker manufacturer

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #96 –
Quote from: ncolombo on
From... an audio engineer, electrical engineer, studio engineer and reluctant audiophile...


What?? No Batman? 

Well, I'm not an engineer, but I play one on TV.
So I can't help but notice you ummm, missed the "listening" test data. You know, the controlled, blind stuff those engineers like to see.....

Got any?

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #97 –
He also didn't bother to calculate the actual frequency response change. Very poor job of handwaving, IMO. And that's not counting the strawman and inapt analogy.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #98 –
Quote from: ncolombo on
Rolex: All swiss-movements (however absurdly expensive) are less accurate than a quartz movement.


Wait a second, "better", more expensive, hand made boutique parts, make not a "better" watch????
Oh noes. What about amps....or dare I say it.....cables???

Well, at least if there is zero evidence to support silver cables being audibly different, they may come in handy against vampires! (Not the audio peddler variety of course)

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer