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Topic: Found old speakers on the sidewalk - help IDing them? (Read 6764 times) previous topic - next topic
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Found old speakers on the sidewalk - help IDing them?

Hi guys,

I am new to this community, looks like a great site you have going. Hopefully you can help me with my question.

I found a pair of speakers someone left out on the sidewalk, and brought the monsters home to check them out.

They are very large (two people have to carry them), have 4 cones (including a 15" bass cone). They are labelled "Linear Design" on the front, and the back panel says: "Linear Design 5000  15" 3 Way 5/100 Watts.

Pictures are here: Speaker Photos

The questions I have are:
-Has anyone heard of this model/brand of speaker before? Is more likely they have would have been high/mid/low end speakers for their time?
-What does the 5/100 mean? Does that mean its likely a 500 watt speaker?
-As you can see the seal around the bass cone is clearly punctured, and when I test the speakers the bass is clearly distorted. Is this fixable with the current cones (ie resealing them) or would I have to get new cones? Would this be a possiblility?

I really don't know much about the technical aspects of speakers/sound quality - but this I think is a great time to start learning!

Thank you all for your time in advance!

Found old speakers on the sidewalk - help IDing them?

Reply #1 –
Quote
-What does the 5/100 mean? Does that mean its likely a 500 watt speaker?
  I dunno... But I'm pretty sure it does not mean 500W.  Usually when you see two numbers, the lower number is "RMS" or "continuous", and the higher number is "peak" or "music power".    5W is low for a big speaker like that...  It might be the minimum recomended power. 

Most speaker power ratings are useless anyway...  Pro speakers are rated according to a standard such as "EIA".  I wouldn't worry about the power rating unless you really like to "blast" your music.  (If you've never burned-out a speaker, before, you are not likely to burn-out these monsters!    )

Quote
-As you can see the seal around the bass cone is clearly punctured, and when I test the speakers the bass is clearly distorted. Is this fixable with the current cones (ie resealing them) or would I have to get new cones? Would this be a possiblility?
  Actually, I can't see the damage. 

There are 4 options:
1. Fill the puncture with a dab of RTV silicone seal.  (This works for a small hole, or slight damage.  But, in your case... enough damage that you can hear distortion, this probably isn't going to fix it.)

2. Re-edge the speakers.  You can get a kit to do it yourself, (i.e. Orange County Speaker or Parts Express), or you can send them in for repair.  If you attempt the repair yourself, and you fail... jump to option #4. 

3. Have the speakers reconed.

4. Replace the woofers.  (I'd look for a speaker with a similar sized voice coil & magnet, and of course, the same impedance.)

To me. these speakers look like they are worth repairing, even if you have to replace the woofers.

NOTE - The speaker cabinet should be "tuned" (matched to the driver design), especially if the speakers are "ported"  (if they have a bass port).  Since you are not likely to find the exact manufacturer's repair kit or exact replacement speakers, the last 3 options are likely to change the bass response.  This would be a major concern with expensive speakers, but with free speakers it's probably worth the risk.  The worst-case is that the speakers end-up "boomy" after repair.  If that happens, you can always seal-up the port, or you can even try re-tuning it.

Found old speakers on the sidewalk - help IDing them?

Reply #2 –
thats a nice looking cabinet, even if the speakers dont work (well), you just got alot of work done for you (building the cabinet anyway, tuning it etc. like dvddoug said should be a real consideration)

that woofer has to be either replaced or have the surround re-edged (i wouldnt personally bother with that) but its your choice.  you can get either at parts express

the mid and tweeter seem to be in order, i remember when my dad was putting together a speaker pair he completely punctured the diaphram on one of the midranges with a screwdriver, but it still worked.  i wouldnt want the cones smashed in like that, but if there is nothing else wrong with them and it sounds ok, its probably fine, at least for the time being

those were my thoughts/opinions

a quick google showed that Linear Design is an Australian company?  Ive never heard of them in any case.  http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=123021443....theres also an interior design company of the same name, also in Australia
My $.02, may not be in the right currency

Found old speakers on the sidewalk - help IDing them?

Reply #4 –
Looks decent enough.  Personally, I'd try replacing the surround first.
"You can fight without ever winning, but never win without a fight."  Neil Peart  'Resist'

Found old speakers on the sidewalk - help IDing them?

Reply #5 –
These look like "white van" speakers. You cannot have two tweeters arranged like that without massive interference and modern hi-fi speakers do not have tweeters with cone designs. How much do the cabinets weigh and what noise do they make if you rap them with your knuckles?

Found old speakers on the sidewalk - help IDing them?

Reply #6 –
A couple of brief comments about "tuning":

The goal of tuning is to create bass response that is smooth and deep.  It's basically a compromise between week bass and "boomy" one-note bass.  This is the opposite of tuning an instrument, where you want resonance (ringing) when you play a particular note.  (Some people like boomy bass, but it's not high fidelity and most people find it boring, fatiguing, or annoying.)

If you have enough information, you can predict the bass response.  For this, you need three things:

1. Speaker design software.  If you search the Net, you can find free software and affordable commercial software.

2. The physical dimensions of the box and the dimensions of the port. (In your case, you can only modify the port.) 

Some drivers are designed to work best in sealed boxes.

3. The Thiele-Small parameters for the driver.  If you buy a new woofer, these specs should be published.  This allows you to virtually "try-out" various woofer & port combinations before you buy.   

If you re-edge or recone your woofer, you have two issues - You are stuck with the Thiele-Small parameters, and you don't know these parameters.  The Thiele-Small parameters can be measured, but it takes some electronic equipment or a $100 gizmo that you can get Parts Express.



Speaker building is a popular hobby, and you can find a ship-load of information on the Net.

Found old speakers on the sidewalk - help IDing them?

Reply #7 –
Quote from: honestguv on
These look like "white van" speakers. You cannot have two tweeters arranged like that without massive interference and modern hi-fi speakers do not have tweeters with cone designs. How much do the cabinets weigh and what noise do they make if you rap them with your knuckles?

I see no evidence that these are "white van" speakers.
Not only do the cabinets appear to be of decent to high quality, the brand is not a known "white van" brand.
As for the weight, he said they took two people to move.
My primary concern would be the condition of the woofers.
If they were driven long enough with the surrounds so decayed, damage likely resulted.
Creature of habit.

Found old speakers on the sidewalk - help IDing them?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: mobj on
Hi guys,

I am new to this community, looks like a great site you have going. Hopefully you can help me with my question.

I found a pair of speakers someone left out on the sidewalk, and brought the monsters home to check them out.

They are very large (two people have to carry them), have 4 cones (including a 15" bass cone). They are labelled "Linear Design" on the front, and the back panel says: "Linear Design 5000  15" 3 Way 5/100 Watts.

Pictures are here: Speaker Photos

The questions I have are:
-Has anyone heard of this model/brand of speaker before? Is more likely they have would have been high/mid/low end speakers for their time?
-What does the 5/100 mean? Does that mean its likely a 500 watt speaker?
-As you can see the seal around the bass cone is clearly punctured, and when I test the speakers the bass is clearly distorted. Is this fixable with the current cones (ie resealing them) or would I have to get new cones? Would this be a possiblility?

I really don't know much about the technical aspects of speakers/sound quality - but this I think is a great time to start learning!

Thank you all for your time in advance!


There's a reason they were left on the sidewalk.

Likely some stores 'house brand'

I interpreted 5/100 to be at least 5 but not more than 100 Watts.

Re-foaming drivers is easy and inexpensive. Total time around an hour and $10-$20 in parts. Expect the time to be spread across 2 days. Assuming the system was designed competently, changing drivers to something else is rarely successful. The mass and surface area of the cone combined with the strength of the magnetic 'motor' mix in with the volume of the box and the reflections (damping) of the box. It's not trivial to get it right - since there are so many that aren't.

G²

Found old speakers on the sidewalk - help IDing them?

Reply #9 –
> I see no evidence that these are "white van" speakers.

The wavelength of sound at high frequencies is a few centimetres and so the constructive/destructive interference from those two wide apart tweeters is going to change drastically with small changes in position. If there was a need for two tweeters (which there isn't) they would be placed as close together as possible. Have you ever seen a speaker on sale in a shop with such a layout of tweeters?

The reason these speakers have got such a crazy layout of drivers is almost certainly because they only have to look good to the inexperienced. A 4 driver speaker rather than a 3 driver speaker was probably judged to be worth the extra 10 cents or so.

> Not only do the cabinets appear to be of decent to high quality,

How have you determined that?

> the brand is not a known "white van" brand.

There are a large number of continually changing "white van" speaker brands.

> As for the weight, he said they took two people to move.

He said they were large but did not say they were heavy. Big is impressive, heavy is expensive which is why I asked for confirmation.

Found old speakers on the sidewalk - help IDing them?

Reply #10 –
Quote
...so the constructive/destructive interference from those two wide apart tweeters is going to change drastically with small changes in position.
I think the speaker (or photo) is on it's side.  So, the tweeters are "high apart".  Yes, they should be as close together as possible.  But, vertical interference is much less of a problem, because the vertical listening angle is usually more-narrow and more-constant than the horizontal listening-angle.  And, if phase-interference turns-out to be a problem, he can always disconnect one of the tweeters, which will result in 3dB of high frequency loss (assuming the tweeters are wired in parallel).

Quote
If there was a need for two tweeters (which there isn't)
It could be for power-handling.    Maybe it is just marketing...  Maybe it's power handling and marketing???  It's not the only way to increase power handling, but it's one way.  High-power professional PA systems often use a multi-driver arrays...  If you've got a 10,000 Watt PA system, you're gonna need more than one tweeter!   

Quote
Have you ever seen a speaker on sale in a shop with such a layout of tweeters?
  I have a pair of old 5-way Pioneer speakers.  (These were FREE too!  Somebody gave 'em to me!)  They are about the size as mobj's, so the speaker panel is pretty crowded, and the drivers are probably postioned "randomly" wherever they would physically fit.  I haven't had the grill off for awhile, so I don't remember the exact layout, but I think they might be similar with a pair of super-tweeters (for a total of 6 drivers).   

I'm sure marketing had a lot to do with the design of my Pioneer speakers.  But, speaker design is always a compromise, and marketing is usually a BIG part of that compromise.

If it was me, I'd go ahead and fix-up these speakers, and I'd probably do it by replacing the woofers.  It's a bit of a gamble, but the odds are that I could spend $100 - $200 (USD) and end-up with a better pair of speakers than I could buy at that price.  If it ends-up sounding terrible, I'd probably spend a little more money and replace the tweeters and/or the midrange.  (When you're in a hole, you might as well keep digging!).  Plus, this kind of thing is FUN for some of us! 

Found old speakers on the sidewalk - help IDing them?

Reply #11 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
Plus, this kind of thing is FUN for some of us! 


Ill second that 

as for having 2 tweeters, i dont know, ive never had 2 tweeters in one box before, so i cant say what it would sound like, but i would expect phasing interference, how much is hard to say

Quote
(In your case, you can only modify the port.)


well...  not exactly, its not impossible to make the box shorter, taller etc. its a bit impractical, and would require a fair ammount of woodworking skill, but not impossible per se

making it smaller would be about 100x easier then making it larger
My $.02, may not be in the right currency

Found old speakers on the sidewalk - help IDing them?

Reply #12 –
Quote
(In your case, you can only modify the port.)
Quote
well...  not exactly, its not impossible to make the box shorter, taller etc. its a bit impractical, and would require a fair ammount of woodworking skill, but not impossible per se

making it smaller would be about 100x easier then making it larger

      Good point!!!  Duh...  I hadn't thought of that.  He can easily reduce the interior volume (without major woodworking), if that's what the software says he needs...  He can easily glue some wood inside  (i.e. 2x4s or 4x4s) to reduce the effective volume (or maybe something lighter, like 'Styrofoam').  Or, since honestguv is concerned with construction quality, he could use some of that wood to add some hefty bracing, reducing the volume and stiffening-up the cabinet!  (Actually, I'd guess the box is a little smaller than 'optimum" for most 15" woofers.)

Found old speakers on the sidewalk - help IDing them?

Reply #13 –
My better half decided not to argue, please delete.
Creature of habit.

Found old speakers on the sidewalk - help IDing them?

Reply #14 –
Ok well firstly thanks for all your suggestions, all very helpful

To answer some of your questions:
-The two small tweeters are lined up vertically, not horizontally
-The speakers were quite heavy, there was no way i could carry them myself and the case seems solidly built and rather clunky
-When I knocked the case it gave a dull thunk noice
-Dimensions of the box are: 95cm H x 46cm W x 38cm D.

Still being confused, I decided to open the speakers up.

Pictures are here: Link

Lo and behold, amongst other discoveries I found a dead rat - now I know why my cat was sniffing around it so much!

Have a look at the inside construction of the two openings at the base. From the outside it looks like the wood is very thick, but when you open it up you can see they are just two cylinders.

Overall, still not sure whether they are white van or not - any guidance? If so, is the box at least decent enough quality for me to use as a basis for making custom speakers?

Cheers again

Found old speakers on the sidewalk - help IDing them?

Reply #16 –
> as for having 2 tweeters, i dont know, ive never had 2 tweeters in one box
> before, so i cant say what it would sound like, but i would expect phasing
> interference, how much is hard to say

It is easy to say if we assume a uniform directivity. If the distance to each tweeter varies by half a wavelength there will be full cancellation and if it varies by a multiple of the wavelength there will be a full summation. At 10 kHz, half a wavelength is just over half an inch. But at 5 kHz it is just over an inch and so the cancellations/summations are different at different frequencies. Tweeters do not have uniform directivity but the above is good enough to show why tweeters are not arranged like that.

> Overall, still not sure whether they are white van or not - any guidance?

Those are very cheaply manufactured speakers. Is there no crossover board? Are there wires going straight from the terminal to the woofers? This will not harm the woofers but sending high and mid frequencies to them will not sound good. The tweeters will have to have the bass removed or else they will melt. Are the couple of components in your second picture attached to the wires going to the tweeters? What about the midrange?

If there is no normal crossover board I really would not recommend plugging these into your amplifier without first checking them electrically.

The tubes are for creating the right sized "plug of air" for the main resonance of the box. Their presence is a good sign although they look a bit too thin like the wire.

If the cabinets are heavy that is a good sign but the lack of bracing and damping indicates that the manufacturer has not made a normal attempt to make them sound good.

The drivers look inexpensive and the failed 15" driver would probably cost only a few dollars to replace if you could find the source and they were prepared to sell you one. What does the writing on them say?

> If so, is the box at least decent enough quality for me to use as a basis for
> making custom speakers?

It has got holes in and will almost certainly be the wrong size to load whatever bass unit you purchase. If you can remove the front or glue on a front with the right sized holes then perhaps if you find that sort of thing fun. However, if I was going to spend hundreds of dollars on some DIY drive units I would build the right cabinet for the job.