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Topic: Speakers vs amps and cd players (Read 76747 times) previous topic - next topic
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Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #125 –
Utopia BE measurements have already been mentioned:

(in room, 5 dB/div)

Here's a JBL speaker in the same room:



Nobody seems to be able to (or be willing to) measure the Nola speakers. Understandable considering the price and "reputation" involved.
Stereophile did measurements of the Nola Contender however (green/blue are the ports):


I don't know how you can mess up a 3 driver speaker (2 woofers, 1 tweeter) like that.
"I hear it when I see it."

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #126 –
Quote from: xnor on
What instrument produces a single clean sine wave? All bets are off as soon as you start generating artificial sounds ... you can even make phase shifts audible that are completely inaudible with music.

You've just mentioned one of the things that started me down this strand of thought: 'science' tells us that "phase is inaudible with music". If so, then this conveniently lets passive speakers off the hook in terms of their phase distortion. But there are so many questions to ask. Like when we say "inaudible" are we meaning in timbre only? Or do we mean inaudible in terms of 'imaging'? Mono or stereo? And then the vexed question of how we define "music". As I pointed out, music could comprise pure sine waves or other steady tones (such as produced by the glass harmonica, theremin, pipe organ) so the claim about inaudibility with music in terms of just timbre doesn't even stand up.

Basically, as soon as someone says "Phase is inaudible with music. End of." my sceptical antennae twitch! Much more information is needed, and even then it cannot tell the whole story.

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #127 –
Everything becomes audible if you overdo it, even phase shift with music. There is no single hard line for everyone and every type of music.

"Inaudible" as in you cannot hear a difference. I'm sure you have read this:
human-hearing-phase-distortion-audibility-part-2

Phase shift of course needs to be identical in both channels.


What I'm saying is that you do not need to obsess about something like phase, but of course hi-fi reproduction is trying to minimize it, same as distortion.
"I hear it when I see it."

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #128 –
If there any EEs here, I have a question. How do I know if my amplifier is clipping? Would I hear lots of distortion, or compression or are there any other symptoms I can expect?

What I've been told is that if my amp is not clipping then it is supplying all the power my speakers need. But perhaps I'm not aware that my amp is clipping because I'm not focusing on the clipping. In electrical terms, if the amp is not clipping then the power supplies are not being "drained"?

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #129 –
Quote from: xnor on
I'm sure you have read this:

Indeed, and I couldn't have linked to a better example of why my questions are relevant! It by no means says that phase is inaudible, even in music. It says that phase distortion is more audible in headphones than speakers, so are we saying that it is passive speakers' phase distortion that is masking the audbility of the phase shifts in the first place i.e. it makes no sense to attempt to assess the effect using passive speakers. And so on!

Edit:
Quote
What I'm saying is that you do not need to obsess about something like phase, but of course hi-fi reproduction is trying to minimize it, same as distortion.

Yes, that's reasonable, but if you truly believe that, the only way to (objectively) minimise all forms of distortion is to use digital sources, DSP and active speakers. Do you? (I do)

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #130 –
No, we are saying that a room messes up the phase so much, that those amounts of phase shifts are being masked.
The all-pass networks used covered a huge range, where passive speakers typically do not have a crossover or roll-off.

Our hearing just isn't that interested in absolute phase shifts (identical for each ear). Why would it?


edit: Yes, digital, DSP and active all the way for me! 
"I hear it when I see it."

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #131 –
Quote from: xnor on
No, we are saying that a room messes up the phase so much, that those amounts of phase shifts are being masked.

But the idea that the room causes phase shifts is a very frequency domain-centric interpretation. The room is contributing delayed reflections that, were the music steady tones, would indeed appear as phase shifts. But on time-varying signals our ears are simply picking up multiple 'echoes' in the time domain, and there is a completely consistent relationship between the frequency and time domains, even as the listener moves in the room. This is different from a speaker that has a flat frequency response, but arbitrary phase distortion.

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #132 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Yes I am aware of Sean Olives work and not surprisingly, his speakers, endorsed by his company, were preferred the most.


If Olive did his homework and developed reliable evidence about what people generally desire and  prefer in terms of speaker performance, and then the organization that he led failed to act on that knowledge and build speakers accordingly, what sort of fools would they be?

Technical work by people like Olive, Toole, Greisinger, and Keele is published in the annals of highly respected professional technical organizations such as the AES.

I did a search in the AES and IEEE databases on Eggleston and come up dry. I wondre why?

Seems to me like Eggleston needs to catch up on his reading:

"Closed box speaker system analysis" JAES vol 20 number 5, 1972.


Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #133 –
If the speakers themselves masked the phase shift, then we wouldn't see much better audibility of phase shifts with speakers in anechoic conditions, similar to headphones.

Also, phase shift is additive and therefore you should still hear the filters being enabled, adding to the phase shift of the speaker.
"I hear it when I see it."

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #134 –
Quote from: xnor on
If the speakers themselves masked the phase shift, then we wouldn't see much better audibility of phase shifts with speakers in anechoic conditions, similar to headphones.

Also, phase shift is additive and therefore you should still hear the filters being enabled, adding to the phase shift of the speaker.


Well, I am simply taking you at your word and minimising all forms of distortion as best I can. I am not looking for reasons why human hearing might be insensitive to phase shifts or nonlinear distortion, or even putting together scientific experiments to prove it (although it is a "truism" to say that science never proves anything, except in mathematics).

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #135 –
Quote from: Rich B on
If there any EEs here, I have a question. How do I know if my amplifier is clipping?


My formal education and work experience includes undergraduate and post graduate work in all topics commonly related to a degree in Electrical Engineering, so calling myself an EE requires a certain amount of humility which I can muster from time to time. ;-)

Clipping is always detectable via conventional signal analysis using an oscilloscope, or FFT analyzer, etc. even in amounts that are far smaller than any that are audible.The best way to measure clipping is to record the electrical output of the power amplifier and go back and analyze the recording which I have done many times.

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Would I hear lots of distortion, or compression or are there any other symptoms I can expect?


In small amounts, clipping is inaudible. In large amounts it alters first the harmonic structure and then the dynamics of music and dialogue. The most audible effects of clipping are usually intermodulation distortion because the artifacts it creates are not necessarily related to the harmonic structure of the signal.

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What I've been told is that if my amp is not clipping then it is supplying all the power my speakers need.


That is false because the amount of power that your speakers need stands apart from equipment effects such as clipping.

The amount of power that your speakers need to please you is dependent on things like:

(1) First and foremost your preferences for loudness

(2) The actual efficiency of your speaker system.

(3) The distance from the listening point to the speakers

(4) Effects of the room such as cabin gain and reinforcement by reflections and canclellation off of surfaces in the room.

(5) A system with an effective subwoofer system is far less prone to have audible distortion due to amplifier clipping or nonlinearities in the speakers.

etc.

What I would tell you is that If you are pleased with your system's loudness and your amplifiers are not clipping then there is a very high probability that your amplifiers have sufficient power.

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But perhaps I'm not aware that my amp is clipping because I'm not focusing on the clipping.


That is true.

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In electrical terms, if the amp is not clipping then the power supplies are not being "drained"?


The most common source of clipping in actual use is that the amp is being called on to provide more energy at any particular moment than it is capable of providing without clipping.  The reasons for that vary with the situation, but in general clipping is caused by the limited  ability of the amplifier to produce the required current and voltage. The most commonly exceeded limit relates to voltage.

Voltage limiting in power amps is usually caused by the amplifier circuitry requiring more voltage than the power supplies can supply. Due to the high crest factor of music and dialog and legal requirements for amplifier power ratings to be advertised in the US, most amplifiers clip before their power supplies are significantly drained.

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #136 –
Quote
That is false because the amount of power that your speakers need stands apart from equipment effects such as clipping.


How is it false though? If the amp is not clipping, which you mean to say is not running out of voltage and current, then the amp is supplying all the power the speaker needs at that moment in time.

I should have said at my listening levels, because I turn the volume to max and it might start clipping. But at my listening levels, if I do not notice audible distortion or compression, that is a tell tale sign that my amplifier is not being limited in its power delivery?

In actual playback, if I don't notice a problem then I guess I don't have one.

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #137 –
Quote from: Green Marker on
Quote from: xnor on
No, we are saying that a room messes up the phase so much, that those amounts of phase shifts are being masked.

But the idea that the room causes phase shifts is a very frequency domain-centric interpretation.


I don't know where one might get that idea or the seemingly implied idea that frequency-domain analysis would conceal relevant facts.

The time domain and frequency domain are perfectly related to each other by a number of different mathematical means, the most common of which is Fourier analysis.  If an artifact exists in the time domain then it also exists in the frequency domain.

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The room is contributing delayed reflections that, were the music steady tones, would indeed appear as phase shifts.


Steady tones are not required to identify or quantify phase shifts. Using them may make it easier to measure using simple  or ancient traditional means, but that does not mean that extant and widely used means can't be used to identify and quantify them from non-steady signals such as impulses.

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But on time-varying signals our ears are simply picking up multiple 'echoes' in the time domain,


The ear/brain is also capable of identifying phase shifts in the lower audible range, and it is also (far more) capable of identifying the effects of phase shifts over the entire audible range.

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...there is a completely consistent relationship between the frequency and time domains, even as the listener moves in the room.


Agreed and that shows up in proper measurements and listening tests with steady or musical (non steady) signals.

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This is different from a speaker that has a flat frequency response, but arbitrary phase distortion.


How?

The  (to quote you) "... completely consistent relationship between the frequency and time domains..." is not an isolated mathematical concept but one that is pervasive and one that effects what we measure and what we hear.

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #138 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Quote
That is false because the amount of power that your speakers need stands apart from equipment effects such as clipping.


How is it false though? If the amp is not clipping, which you mean to say is not running out of voltage and current, then the amp is supplying all the power the speaker needs at that moment in time.


The speaker does not run in a vacuum, it exists to meet the needs of the listener. If the speaker is not cleanly reproducing sound at a loud enough level to please the listener then the system is failing whether it is clipping or not.

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I should have said at my listening levels,



Well yes!

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because I turn the volume to max and it might start clipping. But at my listening levels, if I do not notice audible distortion or compression, that is a tell tale sign that my amplifier is not being limited in its power delivery?


No for the reason I stated.  What is unclear about:

"Clipping is always detectable via conventional signal analysis using an oscilloscope, or FFT analyzer, etc. even in amounts that are far smaller than any that are audible."

Just because you don't hear clipping doesn't mean that your amplifier isn't clipping. Just because you don't hear clipping today doesn't mean that you won't notice it tomorrow.

Quote
In actual playback, if I don't notice a problem then I guess I don't have one.


Well, you don't have a problem today. What about tomorrow?

It is possible and even easy to build an audio system that can never be clipped. However nobody can guarantee that it won't be dissatisfactory  tomorrow because it isn't loud enough.
 

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #139 –
Back to distortion, look at this Focal bookshelf.

In the best case THD is down probably -50 to -60 dB. That's over 0.3% to 0.1%. In the bass it's more like 1% to 2%.


A random floorstanding speaker, same story. (93 dB)
A €25,000 floorstanding speaker, worse in the midrange. (91 dB)
A much cheaper floorstanding, cleaner. (96 dB according to manufacturer)

As you can see, these speakers don't need much power to reach high SPL and high distortion. Less than 20W @ 4ohm for 100 dB SPL.


Keep in mind that this is just harmonic distortion. As soon as you play real music you will get loads of intermodultion products.
"I hear it when I see it."

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #140 –
Quote from: xnor on
I don't know how you can mess up a 3 driver speaker (2 woofers, 1 tweeter) like that.


It is very simple to create a speaker that is a mess, even out of good components if you apply certain kinds of high end audio "Wisdom".  I've seen it done many times. I think I caught an example of it with the Eggleston, for example.

(1) Develop the speaker entirely by ear, don't use any of the common and readily available technological aids. Measurements are for the naive.

(2) Avoid studying the widely available technical articles by Olive, Toole, etc. because they are sold out to the mid-fi audio establishment.  Never study any relevant IEEE or JAES papers for the same reason. If the math is over your head never study math and science until it isn't over your head, that's for eggheads.

(3) Avoid using accepted technology for designing the enclosure, picking drivers and designing the crossover.

(4) Focus on the web buzz about technical features and follow the latest opinions of high end reviewers and internet trolls.

(5) Mimic existing high end loudspeaker designs.

(6) Don't start out simple and work your way up. Never work in private. That will only delay your entry into the pantheon of high end speaker designers. Your first effort needs to advance the state of the loudspeaker design art or you are a fool.

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #141 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
No for the reason I stated.  What is unclear about:

"Clipping is always detectable via conventional signal analysis using an oscilloscope, or FFT analyzer, etc. even in amounts that are far smaller than any that are audible."


Nothing unclear per se, but I don't have the expertise to do diagnostic testing, so I can't run these tests. I rely on audible sound to detect whether there is a problem.

Quote
Just because you don't hear clipping doesn't mean that your amplifier isn't clipping. Just because you don't hear clipping today doesn't mean that you won't notice it tomorrow.


But now I'm uncertain as to whether I would need a more powerful amplifier or not. If I'm not hearing audible distortion, then I would think I'm in the clear. But you are saying that it might be there and I'm not aware of it.

So then when is it a good idea to upgrade your amplifier? Is there no sure-fire way to assess this problem purely by listening, or must it be confirmed always by testing on the bench?

Quote
In actual playback, if I don't notice a problem then I guess I don't have one.
Well, you don't have a problem today. What about tomorrow?


I don't listen at ridiculous volumes. With an SPL meter, I think the loudest peaks are around 95-96 dB. Average around 65-75 dB.

Quote
It is possible and even easy to build an audio system that can never be clipped. However nobody can guarantee that it won't be dissatisfactory  tomorrow because it isn't loud enough.


When people go out and buy bigger amps, I've seen you criticise them for making choices that wouldn't necessarily benefit their bottom-line performance. It's all over AVS.

What people on AVS say is that if the amp isn't audibly clipping, there isn't an audible problem and power is not being limited to the speakers. So since I'm not experiencing audible distortion that I can detect, I am thinking that I'm in the clear and that my amp is big enough for my listening requirements. Do I have reason to think that my assumptions are misguided?

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #142 –
Quote from: xnor on
Back to distortion, look at this Focal bookshelf.

In the best case THD is down probably -50 to -60 dB. That's over 0.3% to 0.1%. In the bass it's more like 1% to 2%.


A random floorstanding speaker, same story. (93 dB)
A €25,000 floorstanding speaker, worse in the midrange. (91 dB)
A much cheaper floorstanding, cleaner. (96 dB according to manufacturer)

As you can see, these speakers don't need much power to reach high SPL and high distortion. Less than 20W @ 4ohm for 100 dB SPL.


Keep in mind that this is just harmonic distortion. As soon as you play real music you will get loads of intermodultion products.


Please forgive me, but can you explain how I am supposed to read the graphs you provided? These are distortion graphs, or frequency response graphs?

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #143 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
No for the reason I stated.  What is unclear about:

"Clipping is always detectable via conventional signal analysis using an oscilloscope, or FFT analyzer, etc. even in amounts that are far smaller than any that are audible."


Nothing unclear per se, but I don't have the expertise to do diagnostic testing, so I can't run these tests. I rely on audible sound to detect whether there is a problem.


Why limit yourself that way?

Quote
Quote
Just because you don't hear clipping doesn't mean that your amplifier isn't clipping. Just because you don't hear clipping today doesn't mean that you won't notice it tomorrow.


But now I'm uncertain as to whether I would need a more powerful amplifier or not. If I'm not hearing audible distortion, then I would think I'm in the clear. But you are saying that it might be there and I'm not aware of it.

So then when is it a good idea to upgrade your amplifier? Is there no sure-fire way to assess this problem purely by listening, or must it be confirmed always by testing on the bench?


You say below that you've read what I've written on AVS. I've written there many times about how to evaluate this problem, right? Why are you asking questions here that I've answered there many, many times?

Quote
Quote
In actual playback, if I don't notice a problem then I guess I don't have one.
Well, you don't have a problem today. What about tomorrow?


I don't listen at ridiculous volumes. With an SPL meter, I think the loudest peaks are around 95-96 dB. Average around 65-75 dB.


Same question - if you've read my answers on AVS why ask the same questions I answered there,  here?

Quote
Quote
It is possible and even easy to build an audio system that can never be clipped. However nobody can guarantee that it won't be dissatisfactory  tomorrow because it isn't loud enough.


When people go out and buy bigger amps, I've seen you criticise them for making choices that wouldn't necessarily benefit their bottom-line performance. It's all over AVS.


My criticism was not as broad and non-specific as you seem to be pretending here.

Same question - if you've read my answers to these questions on AVS why ask them  here?  Why ignore the additional details that are relevant?

Quote
What people on AVS say is that if the amp isn't audibly clipping, there isn't an audible problem and power is not being limited to the speakers. So since I'm not experiencing audible distortion that I can detect, I am thinking that I'm in the clear and that my amp is big enough for my listening requirements. Do I have reason to think that my assumptions are misguided?


It's all about how sure you want to be. Why is that you quote what others have posted on AVS and throw it up at me when I answered it there, and then seem to pretend that I didn't post more specific answers?

Logic says that if someone willfully ignores what I wrote again and again  on a certain topic at AVS, that is their life's pattern and they will do the same thing here. We have other examples here of people who post on AVS who are doing this right now.  Therefore, there is no logical reason for me to allow myself to be bullied into repeating myself yet again.  Now if there are specfiic questions that cite those statement, of course I would be pleased to expand on or explain.  This is one reason why I have decreased my activities on certain forums - I grow tired of repeating the same-old, same-old again and again.

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #144 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
The time domain and frequency domain are perfectly related to each other by a number of different mathematical means, the most common of which is Fourier analysis.  If an artifact exists in the time domain then it also exists in the frequency domain.

Thanks, but I know this. I am familiar with the use of Fourier transforms and the equivalence of the frequency and time domains - my own DSP-based audio system uses it extensively. But I also know that a room's contribution is not simply an indiscriminate "phase shift" regardless of whether the signal is a steady tone or a transient. Therefore it does not follow that it will automatically mask phase distortion in the speaker system.

Quote
Quote
This is different from a speaker that has a flat frequency response, but arbitrary phase distortion.


How?

Because the 'equation' between the original recording and what reaches the listener's ears is broken. The room didn't break it, because the delays, phase shifts and amplitude variations it introduced are all linked consistently. You may say "We can't possibly hear the difference. Let's do a scientific experiment to show it". But I'd rather just use technology (DSP) to bypass the question all together and have zero phase shift contributed by the speakers (or as close as possible).

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #145 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
(3) Avoid using accepted technology for designing the enclosure, picking drivers and designing the crossover.

That's the point I really don't get. There is free software for this. Data for a basic simulation is entered quickly.
If the simulation already comes up with dubious results then continue with that design and if the implementation is even worse, then continue and sell the product with the justification that "speaker design is art after all"?

... if there is a simulation at all.

Or do they blindly trust simplistic simulations without ever measuring the implementation?
"I hear it when I see it."

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #146 –
Quote
It's all about how sure you want to be. Why is that you quote what others have posted on AVS and throw it up at me when I answered it there, and then seem to pretend that I didn't post more specific answers?

Logic says that if someone willfully ignores what I wrote again and again on a certain topic at AVS, that is their life's pattern and they will do the same thing here. We have other examples here of people who post on AVS who are doing this right now. Therefore, there is no logical reason for me to allow myself to be bullied into repeating myself yet again. Now if there are specfiic questions that cite those statement, of course I would be pleased to expand on or explain. This is one reason why I have decreased my activities on certain forums - I grow tired of repeating the same-old, same-old again and again.


I don't spend all my time reading all your posts, but I have read some of your replies and in many cases the implication seemed to be that listener did not need the additional amplification based on your reasoning.

So I'm asking you here to help me to reassure myself of this issue. When is it or is it not necessarily to buy a bigger amplifier? What are the tell-tale signs during playback that an amplifier is running out of power?

You asked me earlier why I limit myself to doing technical tests, but the answer should be self-evident. I'm not an EE, I don't have the tools to perform the testing and I lack the expertise to interpret the results, so I'm not in a position to test amplifier clipping.

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #147 –
Quote
My criticism was not as broad and non-specific as you seem to be pretending here.

Same question - if you've read my answers to these questions on AVS why ask them here? Why ignore the additional details that are relevant?


Because those details are vague and locked inside your brain. I lack the power to determine what you mean to say instead of what you say, and sure, I could run back and forth and ask Arnold 5 months ago on a thread what he *really* meant, but the past is the past, so I look to the present.

The only course of action I have is to ask a question in hopes that you will answer in a clear and concise manner with as little obfuscation as possible.

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #148 –
Quote from: xnor on
Back to distortion, look at this Focal bookshelf.

In the best case THD is down probably -50 to -60 dB. That's over 0.3% to 0.1%. In the bass it's more like 1% to 2%.


What to expect in the bass range from a single 6" midrange-woofer and plain dome tweeter? 

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A random floorstanding speaker, same story. (93 dd)


Obviously more bass drivers, but seemingly quite a bit cleaner in the bass range. About the same price, sorta like the Paradigms I mentioned.

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A €25,000 floorstanding speaker, worse in the midrange. (91 dB)


Seemingly a good example of not getting what you pay for!  Oh, the cabinetry is avant-garde.

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A much cheaper floorstanding, cleaner. (96 dB according to manufacturer)

As you can see, these speakers don't need much power to reach high SPL and high distortion. Less than 20W @ 4ohm for 100 dB SPL.


American Iron making me a little proud.

Yet another system based on a dome tweeter at the base of a waveguide.  Note that the KEF Blade is one too, but something got lost when the price got jacked up more than an order of magnitude, I guess. ;-)

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Keep in mind that this is just harmonic distortion. As soon as you play real music you will get loads of intermodultion products.


Both THD and IM can be caused by the same basic nonlinearity. Low THD suggests but does not guarantee low IM. However when the THD is low at frequencies that are well below any measurement bandpass limit, the relationship is usually pretty tight. In this case low THD strongly suggests low IM.

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #149 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Quote
My criticism was not as broad and non-specific as you seem to be pretending here.

Same question - if you've read my answers to these questions on AVS why ask them here? Why ignore the additional details that are relevant?


Because those details are vague and locked inside your brain.


No they are not.  They are right there in black and white.

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I lack the power to determine what you mean to say instead of what you say, and sure, I could run back and forth and ask Arnold 5 months ago on a thread what he *really* meant, but the past is the past, so I look to the present.


I sense that you aren't trying, and are back trying to bully me into doing your bidding.

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The only course of action I have is to ask a question in hopes that you will answer in a clear and concise manner with as little obfuscation as possible.


No, you have other far more reasonable courses of action, such as go on AVS, retrieve my recent posts, and actually read them this time.