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Topic: Speakers vs amps and cd players (Read 76824 times) previous topic - next topic
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Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #75 –
Quote from: Green Marker on
Quote from: krabapple on
Is that your conclusion after having read the methods sections of the research papers ?

My attitude is that simply having, and stating a methodology doesn't automatically make it science, or make it objective. If we are talking about listening to music, then it is automatically subjective to some extent. If a research paper states "A selection of typical music tracks was chosen at random", or "The listeners were allowed to make their own music selections" it doesn't make it science. I was just reading a piece by Higher Authority Sean Olive about preferring the use of 'trained' listeners for audio evaluation. His organisation trains its listeners using a special program of sessions where listeners learn to identify characteristics of processed "music". It seems to me, there are questions prompted by this: no matter how scientific it appears, there is an element of circularity. (As an example)




Olive has used both trained and untrained listeners -- and found that their preferences converge.  Trained listeners are simply more reliable -- i.e., their individual perforamance from trial does trial does not vary widely, as can happen for untrained --  and efficient testees.  You can get a robust answer *faster* using trained listeners. 

As for training to hear artifacts or  'characteristics', that is absolutely common in perceptual testing.  It , again , is there to *increase* discriminatory power in the testees and thereby increase the detective power of the test. 

Have you actually read the research papers?  You write as if none of the points you put forward had ever been considered by the 'Higher Authorities'

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #76 –
Quote from: Green Marker on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Can we move on from obsessing over truisms?

Sorry. This branch of the discussion stemmed from my earlier objections to discussions that do nothing but quote from Higher Authorities - which are, in themselves, nothing but a form of endless regurgitation of truisms.



And your alternative to citing research is what?  "I heard it, therefore it is real?"

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #77 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: krabapple on
And I'm not understanding the second part or what you wrote --Geddes was there?  *Where*?


C'mon now, the link I provided! 
Here again:  http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/01/what...ations-are.html



Quote
The panelists included myself, Steve Temme (Listen Inc.), Dr. Earl Geddes (GedLee), Laurie Fincham (THX), Mike Klasco (Menlo Scientific), and Dr. Floyd Toole (former VP Acoustic Engineering at Harman), who served as the panel moderator. After about 30 minutes, a consensus was quickly reached on the following points:



My bad.    If Earl accepts that view of nonlinear distortion -- that its role is still unclear rather than negligable -- as the 'consensus',  then all I can fault him for is phrasing his opinion a bit more dogmatically than that, on other forums.




Quote
Quote from: krabapple on
If he only means typical THD and IM specs, that's not quite the same claim. And I don't think Sean would phrase it as strongly as Earl does..


Well, rather than continue the guesswork, we could ask him.  My reading is that of the above (THD/IM). Both think non-linear is possibly worthy of further investigation.


Might do!

 
Quote
So exactly what is JA to be bashed for, for not performing "distortion" measurements (my contention with Arnmir)?? What distortion measurements? On what basis?




I'm running the risk of GreenMarker censure for quoting a 'higher authority' yet again, but: here's Olive expanded on this matter in comments on his blog:

Quote
[N]one of the current loudspeaker specifications are very relevant -- but there is enough science to fix this.

The relevant specifications would include measures of a) frequency response performance that characterize quality of direct,early, late reflected sounds b) a perceptual meaningful measure of nonlinear distortion and maximum SPL c) perhaps spatial quality (related to directivity). I think a) is already possible, c) needs some work, and b) needs even more work.


I'm not sure I would fault JA specifically on this since few (no?) others are doing those B and C sorts of measurements, and in any case the measurements themselves 'need work'.

But really , do you really want to encourage more Arny/JA squabbling?

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #78 –
Quote from: Kees de Visser on
btw, I've always wondered about the high score at the lowest distortion, to the right. Golden ears, cheating ?

I'm sure there's some cheating and luck involved.

Case in point, I just did the "one tone" test and I passed the highest score (-60 dB = 0.1%) without a single error on "crappy" headphones with "crappy" onboard. I didn't cheat.
The distorted sample always sounded a bit higher in perceived frequency at the onset.
"I hear it when I see it."

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #79 –
Quote
(-60 dB = 0.001% right?)
60dB is a ratio of 1/1000 = 0.1%.    Still, I'm surprised you can hear that!

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #80 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: Rich B on
Define "High End"?

Rich, you were supposed to tell us what a "high end" speaker is! Help me out man, I did my best with the whole FR thing for you, which you hopefully now understand. 
Would a Revel Salon qualify?

High end : exclusive, expensive, superior construction, better finishes, more sophisticated drivers, extended frequency extension.


Which are merely claimed and which are actually delivered?

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #81 –
Of course * 100 for percent... 
I'm not sure if I was lucky, will try again later.  Being 4 times lucky in a row (at the lowest levels of distortion) is not that unlikely.
"I hear it when I see it."

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #82 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: Rich B on
Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: Rich B on
Define "High End"?

Rich, you were supposed to tell us what a "high end" speaker is! Help me out man, I did my best with the whole FR thing for you, which you hopefully now understand. 
Would a Revel Salon qualify?

High end : exclusive, expensive, superior construction, better finishes, more sophisticated drivers, extended frequency extension.


Which are merely claimed and which are actually delivered?


Like I said, you are highly prejudiced on this topic. You aren't exactly one to give a fair, honest assessment of the situation. I suspect your system is predominantly cheap components cobbled together. Anything expensive is just shot down because you can't afford it. But please, if I'm wrong, then please list your components for me so I can see who this grand judge is in a better light.

Let's see if the Paradigm Studio can match this :






Let's see if it can match this in dynamics, low frequency response and low distortion output. There are many, many examples out there.
 

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #83 –
Stereophile has reviewed very similar EgglestonWorks speakers. A speakers that dips to almost 2 ohms in the bass, hast an almost 10 dB high peak in the bass, really weird/bad crossover, uneven directionality ...
... in audiophile lalaland for only $20,000 a pair.

A speakers performance is not defined by price, number of drivers and "high-end" label, you know?


This, btw, is not much different for the other speaker you posted. Just check out this quote:
Quote
The Diva Utopia Be—and more particularly the Center Utopia Be—produced a mixed set of measurements. This isn't unusual in high-end speakers.

In the Stereophile tester's room they measured:
Quote
... 50Hz room-mode peak at +12dB. Further up the band, however, a deep -10dB suckout from 80 to 120Hz  is likely to have much more serious subjective consequences.

~50 Hz is also where this speaker dips dangerously low to almost 2 ohms.
Too bad they never made up to date measurements.

... in audiophile lalaland for only $80,000 for a set.

S&V also did pseudo-anechoic measurements. Weird directivity causes a couple of decibels drop from 2 to 3 kHz, much less at 6 to 8 kHz however. Fun.


Low frequency response was not great for any of those speakers I could find measurements on. Distortion measurements are not available, but I doubt that they would be less horrible.
"I hear it when I see it."

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #84 –
Quote from: krabapple on
If Earl accepts that view of nonlinear distortion -- that its role is still unclear rather than negligable -- as the 'consensus',  then all I can fault him for is phrasing his opinion a bit more dogmatically than that, on other forums.

Well, my channeling skills suck, but I suspect he's a "Show me, don't tell me" guy. Make him a believer by presenting data, but until then....

Quote from: krabapple on
I'm not sure I would fault JA specifically on this since few (no?) others are doing those B and C sorts of measurements, and in any case the measurements themselves 'need work'.

Bingo. I mean, sure bash the guy over DBTs and audiophoolery. But his measurement regime is pretty solid, I actually prefer some of how he presents to Soundstage (NRC). But steady state THD, or "to be investigated" non-linear? C'mon now.. 

Quote from: krabapple on
But really , do you really want to encourage more Arny/JA squabbling?

I'm entertained by his squabbles either way, whether he's right (DBTs, audiojewelry, et al), or wrong (Bi-amp, speaker distortion, etc.). Especially the Amir ones. 

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #85 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: Kees de Visser on
I've always wondered about the high score at the lowest distortion, to the right. Golden ears, cheating ?

Hah. I took that test myself many, many moons ago, managed to crack into the -40s IIRC (I'll have to dig up the screenshot). I was astounded others could hear well over 10db lower!!....until I realized there was a glitch in the tracks that allowed identification. I think it was pulled shortly after. Is it back now?
Btw, all of those online tests can be gamed. As the AVS wrecks demonstrated. Take the outlier results with a grain of salt.


Well, so much for my memory (2007/2008?)
.
The "tell" was a faint click IIRC in one of the tracks. Now the spike at top of the bell curve made sense. I emailed them and the test disappeared shortly after.
May have to try the new one some day. But quite frankly, I have bigger fish to fry.

cheers,

AJ

Loudspeaker manufacturer

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #86 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Let's see if it can match this in dynamics, low frequency response and low distortion output.

Where can those measurements be found for the pictures you are listing??
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #87 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Let's see if it can match this in dynamics, low frequency response and low distortion output. There are many, many examples out there.


Please provide reliable evidence that those alleged benefits exist.

Standard technical tests will suffice.

What I see in those pictures could easily be poorly integrated collections of cheaply made drivers with a lot of bling.

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #88 –
Quote
Low frequency response was not great for any of those speakers I could find measurements on. Distortion measurements are not available, but I doubt that they would be less horrible.


The Eggleston Works speakers use 2 12" woofers per speaker in large cabinets. That's 4 x 12" woofers. You say the low frequency response was not great? Prove it.

Quote
A speakers performance is not defined by price, number of drivers and "high-end" label, you know?


Then what is it defined by? Cheap cabinets, cheap drivers, cheap crossovers, slapped together by super glue?

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #89 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: Rich B on
Let's see if it can match this in dynamics, low frequency response and low distortion output. There are many, many examples out there.


Please provide reliable evidence that those alleged benefits exist.

Standard technical tests will suffice.

What I see in those pictures could easily be poorly integrated collections of cheaply made drivers with a lot of bling.


The post above is just reflecting the biases and prejudices of the individual. Show me your list of equipment. I've asked you several times and not once have you bothered to do so. I want to see what system your audio journey has led you to. 

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #90 –
Double post.

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #91 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: Rich B on
Let's see if it can match this in dynamics, low frequency response and low distortion output. There are many, many examples out there.


Please provide reliable evidence that those alleged benefits exist.

Standard technical tests will suffice.

What I see in those pictures could easily be poorly integrated collections of cheaply made drivers with a lot of bling.


The post above is just reflecting the biases and prejudices of the individual.


No, its about an agressive poster's inability to provide reliable evidence to back up his counter-scientific assertions.

Quote
Show me your list of equipment.


(1) The equipment I happen to possess or use at some time is irrelevant to a discussion of basic science. 

For example yesterday I almost bought a Bose Acoustimass system just to see what I sounds like and maybe take it apart to see what's inside. So what? 

Right now I'm listening to my favorite 2-channel system: A Sansa Fuze driving a Topping NX1 driving a pair of Sony XBA1 earphones. So what?

(2) From time to time I've mentioned online some of the equipment that I'm listening to.  I just mentioned that I sometimes listen to KEF Q15s and provided a link to technical measurements of them. So what?


Quote
I've asked you several times and not once have you bothered to do so. I want to see what system your audio journey has led you to.


Its not a matter of bothering or not, its a matter of not exposing myself further to your prejudices.

You should talk about not bothering? You can't even be bothered to properly identify the speakers you seem to want to force us worship based on just your say-so.

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #92 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Quote
Low frequency response was not great for any of those speakers I could find measurements on. Distortion measurements are not available, but I doubt that they would be less horrible.


The Eggleston Works speakers use 2 12" woofers per speaker in large cabinets. That's 4 x 12" woofers. You say the low frequency response was not great? Prove it.


I read on the internet that those 12" drivers have Xmax < 1 mm and come out of one of the sleaziest and most careless speaker driver factories on the Pacific Rim. ;-)

Quote
A speakers performance is not defined by price, number of drivers and "high-end" label, you know?

Quote

Then what is it defined by? Cheap cabinets, cheap drivers, cheap crossovers, slapped together by super glue?



AFAIK you've just described any of the speakers whose images you put up for us to worship based on just your say-so.

Among rational people  speaker performance can be identified by means of good performance in proper technical tests. I provided links to some reliable evidence about the SQ of speakers that AJ & I own. Where is your corresponding evidence?

It is well known that high prices are proof of nothing but high prices and everything else needs to be judged on a case-by-case basis using reliable evidence.

Where's the evidence that the speakers you have put up images of for us to worship are anything but vastly overpriced junk?

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #93 –
Quote from: Rich B on
High end : exclusive, expensive, superior construction, better finishes, more sophisticated drivers, extended frequency extension.


...

Let's see if the Paradigm Studio can match this :

...

Let's see if it can match this in dynamics, low frequency response and low distortion output. There are many, many examples out there.



Quote from: xnor on
A speakers performance is not defined by price, number of drivers and "high-end" label, you know?



Quote
A speakers performance is not defined by price, number of drivers and "high-end" label, you know?


Quote
Then what is it defined by? Cheap cabinets, cheap drivers, cheap crossovers, slapped together by super glue?


Wow factor, apparently. And as a recovering audiophile () I'd say that's just it. We are like guys in a bar talking about women: Just look at the high-end drivers on that one.

I hope this is not offensive: I'm thinking on my feet, introspection, and talking about myself as much as  others.

Yes, I got some "wow" from the photographs. Then I had an interesting thought, which was that one doesn't see stuff like this (not that I've got closer than photos) in studio control roome; not even the big ones with equally big (and quite possibly much more expensive) monitor setups.

Of course, in the home, speakers do have to be acceptable pieces of furniture. It helps if they are beautiful, especially if big. It's one of those preference things.


The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #94 –
Quote from: Thad E Ginathom on
Quote from: Rich B on
High end : exclusive, expensive, superior construction, better finishes, more sophisticated drivers, extended frequency extension.


...

Let's see if the Paradigm Studio can match this :

...

Let's see if it can match this in dynamics, low frequency response and low distortion output. There are many, many examples out there.



Quote from: xnor on
A speakers performance is not defined by price, number of drivers and "high-end" label, you know?



Quote
A speakers performance is not defined by price, number of drivers and "high-end" label, you know?


Quote
Then what is it defined by? Cheap cabinets, cheap drivers, cheap crossovers, slapped together by super glue?


Wow factor, apparently. And as a recovering audiophile () I'd say that's just it. We are like guys in a bar talking about women: Just look at the high-end drivers on that one.

I hope this is not offensive: I'm thinking on my feet, introspection, and talking about myself as much as  others.

Yes, I got some "wow" from the photographs. Then I had an interesting thought, which was that one doesn't see stuff like this (not that I've got closer than photos) in studio control roome; not even the big ones with equally big (and quite possibly much more expensive) monitor setups.

Of course, in the home, speakers do have to be acceptable pieces of furniture. It helps if they are beautiful, especially if big. It's one of those preference things.

Abbey Road Studios use domestically available (and rather nicely finished) B&W speakers and Classé power amps. They may be an exception, but they are a major recording studio.

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #95 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Let's see if it can match this in dynamics, low frequency response and low distortion output. There are many, many examples out there.

Amazing that when price and dimensions are no object, they still feel the need to add bass resonators to some of them.

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #96 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Then what is it defined by?

Sound and corresponding measurements of soundwave attributes. You have made a very specific claim about a set of those measurable attributes: "Let's see if it can match this in dynamics, low frequency response and low distortion output."
Your "pictures" show nothing of the sort. Rich, the measurements of the 3 speaker pictured above, that show these attributes? 2 appear to be 1" dome direct radiators, just like the Paradigm, so this ought to be interesting when you present your data.
If you have polar response data, which is critical to what your perceive at the LP (hopefully you finally got this!  ) for that dual tower festooned with drivers speaker, by all means present it.
It ought to be fascinating, much like your visual assessments of loudspeaker "performance". 

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #97 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Quote
Low frequency response was not great for any of those speakers I could find measurements on. Distortion measurements are not available, but I doubt that they would be less horrible.

The Eggleston Works speakers use 2 12" woofers per speaker in large cabinets. That's 4 x 12" woofers. You say the low frequency response was not great? Prove it.


That's for the Andra II (nearfield response of woofers = red). Feel free to show us other measurements.
You call that a great low frequency response?

Good frequency response is not just defined by the bandwidth. Eggle uses this huge peak so they can trick customers into believing that their speaker is flat down to ~35 Hz.

If they were honest they'd have to specify the frequency response as 100 Hz - 18 kHz +/- 3 dB, or 80 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 5 dB, still ignoring the 5 dB dip at 1 kHz as shown in Stereophile's anechoic measurements.


Quote from: Rich B on
Quote
A speakers performance is not defined by price, number of drivers and "high-end" label, you know?

Then what is it defined by? Cheap cabinets, cheap drivers, cheap crossovers, slapped together by super glue?

So you really haven't learned anything at all from the "Audio Hardware with Blind Tested Sonic Signature, specifically speakers" thread?
You didn't read anything we pointed you to?
I'm not going to repeat myself.

This reminds me so of "high-end" devices, where the designers (as in fashion) really think that putting $10 instead of $1 chips into their crap circuits will drastically improve the sound ...
"I hear it when I see it."

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #98 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Show me your list of equipment. I've asked you several times and not once have you bothered to do so. I want to see what system your audio journey has led you to.

This is excellent audiophile logic, congrats, you've passed.
Unfortunately, amongst rational, educated people, it's known as a Red Herring. Rather than have my sucky explanation, do you know how to do the Googles on the internets thing?
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Speakers vs amps and cd players

Reply #99 –
Quote from: Rich B on
The Eggleston Works speakers use 2 12" woofers per speaker in large cabinets. That's 4 x 12" woofers. You say the low frequency response was not great? Prove it.

Rich, it looks like you made an excellent audiophile knowledge choice with your Eggleston pic!!
The Savoy Signature claims Frequency Response: -3dB @18Hz . Definitely spanks the Paradigm!...on paper and audiophile mind at least. Unfortunately, no measurements, but wait, do not despair, because we do have measurements of another to get an idea of actual performance.
EgglestonWorks Andra II loudspeaker, with even better 17hz extension.
As you can clearly see here:


cheers,

AJ


Loudspeaker manufacturer