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Topic: Open Source DVD-Audio project (Read 57223 times) previous topic - next topic
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Open Source DVD-Audio project

Reply #50 –
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A big advantage of DVD-Audio is that it supports LPCM audio at multiples of 44.1KHz - so you can "losslessly" burn 4GB+ of Red Book CD Audio to DVD.    You can also create a DVD-Audio with no video content at all - giving all the space on the disc to audio content.


Correct me if somebody said this and I missed it, but DVD-Audio's data pipe (for audio) is much larger than DVD-Video's Audio specs; 9.6 Mbps compared to 6.144 Mbps. Unfortunately, even with the wider audio pipe, six channels of 96/24 LPCM  still exceeds the allotted bandwidth; it calculates to 13.824 Mbps (96k by 24 bits x 6 channels). That's why we have MLP; it beat out the other lossy contenders, and was selected to solve that problem (around 1999?). Until FLAC recently, no other lossless audio codec supported multiple channels in all that time, or if there is one, it's very obscure (if any of my facts are wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me).

Shorten, FLAC and Monkey's Audio (APE) have been the most commonly used lossless audio codecs for years, that I do know, because I've been an Op or Moderator in lossless Bootleg (non-commercial material only!) Direct Connect hubs for that long. Thanks to Spoon, I have the codecs for WavePak, OptimFrog, LA and other lossless formats that have never really caught on (Batagy will back me up on all this, because he's also a collector).

Since the MLP encoder is still going for $2,500, LPCM will do just fine! MLP is the COMPRESSION standard for DVD-Audio, and as you said Dave, it's optional. LPCM is not "lossless" or "lossy", it's uncompressed. DVD-Audio is also extensible, and can utilize new audio coding technology that becomes available in the future, so who knows what will even be going on a year from now. Carry on, your project is needed!-Dave

Open Source DVD-Audio project

Reply #51 –
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Shorten, FLAC and Monkey's Audio (APE) have been the most commonly used lossless audio codecs for years, that I do know, because I've been an Op or Moderator in lossless Bootleg (non-commercial material only!) Direct Connect hubs for that long. Thanks to Spoon, I have the codecs for WavePak, OptimFrog, LA and other lossless formats that have never really caught on (Batagy will back me up on all this, because he's also a collector).

Yes, you're right. Most of the bootleg material is encoded with FLAC; there are relatively small amount of Monkey's Audio, and for traditional reason most of the Pink Floyd material is in Shorten format. I don't really like Shorten, because seeking is not supported. I've never found any Wavepack, OptimFrog and LA codec encoded bootleg.

Quote
Since the MLP encoder is still going for $2,500, LPCM will do just fine! MLP is the COMPRESSION standard for DVD-Audio, and as you said Dave, it's optional. LPCM is not "lossless" or "lossy", it's uncompressed. DVD-Audio is also extensible, and can utilize new audio coding technology that becomes available in the future, so who knows what will even be going on a year from now. Carry on, your project is needed!-Dave
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=292987"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It's a pity that DVD-Audio standard doesn't support FLAC as compression format instead of MLP (well, not instead, but as a second option). But uncompressed LPCM is also more than enough at this stage I think.

Open Source DVD-Audio project

Reply #52 –
Hi Dave,

Is there any news about developing DVDA-Author?

Open Source DVD-Audio project

Reply #53 –
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Actually, if you're looking for a standard DVD-video format that just plays audio, LPCM or AC3, there is a product called 'Goland Audio DVD Creator' that costs about $25 that takes non-conforming audio input, transforms them to either conforming LPCM or AC3 (stereo only), at a bitrate of your choosing, and creates a menu structure treating each Album as a Title and each Track as a Chapter. While the track is playing, it displays a still frame detailing the Artist, Album and Title.


I agree with what you are saying - for lots of people, DVD-V may be a better choice.

A big advantage of DVD-Audio is that it supports LPCM audio at multiples of 44.1KHz - so you can "losslessly" burn 4GB+ of Red Book CD Audio to DVD.    You can also create a DVD-Audio with no video content at all - giving all the space on the disc to audio content.

But as you say, the big disadvantage is lack of compatibility with the millions of existing DVD-Video players (unless you create a "Universal" DVD-A disk that duplicates the audio content in the VIDEO_TS directory).  This situation is only getting worse because manufacturers are still not building DVD-Audio compatibility into all their players.

Dave.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=280041"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've tried this Goland Audio DVD Creator program. It resamples all 44.1 kHz audio to either 48 or 96 kHz (your choice). You can pick 16- or 24-bit audio too. Anyone know if this is a restriction of the software or the DVD-Video specs? If it's a software restriction, I wish it could be gotten rid of and the option couldbe left to keeping the WAVs untouched, as resampling is a lossy process - especially 44100 to 48000 Hz...

I'm still going to test the software out with some of my FLAC albums and see how it goes.

PS: The option of user-selectable AC-3 encoding sound very nice. Anywhere from 96 to 640 kbps and 2 channels to 5.1!

Open Source DVD-Audio project

Reply #54 –
Quote
I've tried this Goland Audio DVD Creator program. It resamples all 44.1 kHz audio to either 48 or 96 kHz (your choice). You can pick 16- or 24-bit audio too. Anyone know if this is a restriction of the software or the DVD-Video specs? If it's a software restriction, I wish it could be gotten rid of and the option couldbe left to keeping the WAVs untouched, as resampling is a lossy process - especially 44100 to 48000 Hz...

I'm still going to test the software out with some of my FLAC albums and see how it goes.

PS: The option of user-selectable AC-3 encoding sound very nice. Anywhere from 96 to 640 kbps and 2 channels to 5.1!
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=344159"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


That's a limit of the DVD-Video specs - 16/20/24-bit LPCM audio at 48KHz or 96KHz.

If you want other samplerates on a DVD, you will have to switch to using DVD-Audio and playing those discs in a DVD-Audio capable player.

Dave.

Open Source DVD-Audio project

Reply #55 –
Quote
Quote
I've tried this Goland Audio DVD Creator program. It resamples all 44.1 kHz audio to either 48 or 96 kHz (your choice). You can pick 16- or 24-bit audio too. Anyone know if this is a restriction of the software or the DVD-Video specs? If it's a software restriction, I wish it could be gotten rid of and the option couldbe left to keeping the WAVs untouched, as resampling is a lossy process - especially 44100 to 48000 Hz...

I'm still going to test the software out with some of my FLAC albums and see how it goes.

PS: The option of user-selectable AC-3 encoding sound very nice. Anywhere from 96 to 640 kbps and 2 channels to 5.1!
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=344159"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


That's a limit of the DVD-Video specs - 16/20/24-bit LPCM audio at 48KHz or 96KHz.

If you want other samplerates on a DVD, you will have to switch to using DVD-Audio and playing those discs in a DVD-Audio capable player.

Dave.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=344162"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
OK. Are albums/groups/titles/tracks/indices allowed in DVD-Video? A good example for groups is when I might have music from different artists, I could use groups. Then, for titles, I could use, say, each album's name, then for tracks, obviously the track title would be used...

Open Source DVD-Audio project

Reply #56 –
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OK. Are albums/groups/titles/tracks/indices allowed in DVD-Video?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=344178"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Although it's a bit of thread hijacking to revive this DVD-A thread to a DVD-V topic 

DVD-V can be divided in "Titles" and "Chapters". You can have max 99 Titles divided into 99 Chapters (though I seem to remember there is an upper limit to the total chapters a bit lower than that).
Sometimes these are called differently like "Tracks" and "Chapters" or "Features" and Scenes".
There does exist a smaller part called "Program" but that might be hard to navigate? You have to build some sort of menu for that. A program in turn consists of "cells".

Anyway, Audio DVD Creator (which funily creates a DVD-Video) handles that already, doesn't it?
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

Open Source DVD-Audio project

Reply #57 –
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OK. Are albums/groups/titles/tracks/indices allowed in DVD-Video?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=344178"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Although it's a bit of thread hijacking to revive this DVD-A thread to a DVD-V topic 

DVD-V can be divided in "Titles" and "Chapters". You can have max 99 Titles divided into 99 Chapters (though I seem to remember there is an upper limit to the total chapters a bit lower than that).
Sometimes these are called differently like "Tracks" and "Chapters" or "Features" and Scenes".
There does exist a smaller part called "Program" but that might be hard to navigate? You have to build some sort of menu for that. A program in turn consists of "cells".

Anyway, Audio DVD Creator (which funily creates a DVD-Video) handles that already, doesn't it?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=344199"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes. Goland Audio DVD Creator handles it.

Let the DVD-A discussion continue...

Who here would like 8-cm DL DVD-R being run in some small portable player that can play the top three used lossless formats, MLP, 'music DVD', DVD-Audio (pressed or burnt), plus WAV/AIFF/AU & MP3, WMA, Ogg Vorbis, AC-3, AAC/other MPEG-4 audio, other [lossy or lossless] format not mentioned here? I certainly would love this. Small nearly MD-sized DVD player made for audio...

Open Source DVD-Audio project

Reply #58 –
why 8cm DVD?  that form factor is already covered by hard-drive-based systems at higher capacity.

Josh

Open Source DVD-Audio project

Reply #59 –
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Let the DVD-A discussion continue...

Who here would like 8-cm DL DVD-R being run in some small portable player that can play the top three used lossless formats, MLP, 'music DVD', DVD-Audio (pressed or burnt), plus [..][a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=344242"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't think we will see a combination of 8cm discs and DVD-A(pressed), so no MLP either. IMO Hi-Rez audio is a terrible waiste on a portable, lossless stereo is pushing it already 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

Open Source DVD-Audio project

Reply #60 –
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Let the DVD-A discussion continue...

Who here would like 8-cm DL DVD-R being run in some small portable player that can play the top three used lossless formats, MLP, 'music DVD', DVD-Audio (pressed or burnt), plus [..][a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=344242"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't think we will see a combination of 8cm discs and DVD-A(pressed), so no MLP either. IMO Hi-Rez audio is a terrible waiste on a portable, lossless stereo is pushing it already 
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=344357"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
OK. Maybe the 8-cm thing isn't so useful? So why no regular-size DVD DAPs? People've been dealing with technically lossless digital audio way before even MP3: thanks to CDs in 1982! So why all of a sudden are crappy-sounding lossy music being sold in online stores instead of WAV files or FLAC/similar? I'd gladly pay the 1 USD or so for a song, as long as it's _lossless_.

How much harder is it to make a DVD DAP focused mainly on audio that can at least play MP3, Vorbis, FLAC, WAV, & WMA (gaplessly too) and do it well? Would this sell well? The way I see it, if a device with a hard drive in it with batteries that die for good after a year (coughicoughpcoughcoughocoughdcough), can sell (and make millions too), so should this...
 

Open Source DVD-Audio project

Reply #61 –
First off Thank You much for this work!

I was reading the bandwidth issue .. because I too would like to make 24/96 surround files.
And I happened upon a Ambisonic/dvda pdf.... http://www.ambisonic.net/pdf/dvda.pdf  where the writer notes that

"you could use 24/96 at the front and
16/48 at the rear. The sample rates
must be in the same ‘family’ (ie. related by a
simple multiplier, such as 48/96/192kHz or
44.1/88.2/176.4kHz). I would recommend
that people use the longest word lengths they
can and avoid weird hybrids like 16/96. There
probably isn’t much point."

The other thing that interested me was the dual layer

"give the listener the best of all possible
worlds: a single-inventory disc, holding on it
everything you could possibly want. This
disc would probably include the following:
a high-density DVD-Audio stream of up to
six channels at 24/96 with MLP, maybe with
a stereo LPCM stream; a simple sample-rate
converted AC-3 5.1 version at 48kHz on the
DVD-Video portion; and a Red Book CD
layer at 16/44.1 so you don’t even need to
release a separate CD version."


1.Can something mux like this?  Would it be crap?
2. What can we fit on the sucker?.. 5.1/2.0HD 2.0CD .. i see no need to bring dolby into this  heh

Thanks again for this free tool to make 24/192 DVDA