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Topic: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics (Read 44741 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #75 –
Quote from: shakeshuck on
Quote from: andy o on
Saying that you're taking no position or that you're somehow in the middle implies there are 2 positions that are equivalent in the first place. You may not be taking any of your 2 imagined positions, but you are taking a position. A better way to approach this if you are a newb to the subject is to just ask what does the science say up to now.

I obviously misread the tone of the forum when I first started posting.
I assumed there would be proponents of both PCM and DSD on here, happily comparing notes - so I made a comment aimed at not offending one way or the other.



DSD is a dead format, in part because it was a technically inferior option, in part because it was used as a vehicle for pushing DRM, and in part due to questionable marketing and product positioning.

Outside of hipsters, collectors and the ignorant, you probably won't find many proponents of the format.

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #76 –
Quote from: saratoga on
Quote from: shakeshuck on
Quote from: andy o on
Saying that you're taking no position or that you're somehow in the middle implies there are 2 positions that are equivalent in the first place. You may not be taking any of your 2 imagined positions, but you are taking a position. A better way to approach this if you are a newb to the subject is to just ask what does the science say up to now.

I obviously misread the tone of the forum when I first started posting.
I assumed there would be proponents of both PCM and DSD on here, happily comparing notes - so I made a comment aimed at not offending one way or the other.



DSD is a dead format, in part because it was a technically inferior option, in part because it was used as a vehicle for pushing DRM, and in part due to questionable marketing and product positioning.

Outside of hipsters, collectors and the ignorant, you probably won't find many proponents of the format.

If a particularly masterful performance of a favourite piece of yours came out only on DSD, would you be happy to miss out on that simply because of your anti-DSD stance?
 

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #77 –
Quote from: shakeshuck on
If a particularly masterful performance of a favourite piece of yours came out only on DSD, would you be happy to miss out on that simply because of your anti-DSD stance?
If that was the case i'd join an online forum to ask how to make it PCM.
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #80 –
Quote from: greynol on
...or 256kbit Quick Time AAC.

Bet the OP won't be able to tell the difference either way. ;)

Even I won't bet against you on that one.

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #81 –
Quote from: Wombat on
Quote from: shakeshuck on
If a particularly masterful performance of a favourite piece of yours came out only on DSD, would you be happy to miss out on that simply because of your anti-DSD stance?
If that was the case i'd join an online forum to ask how to make it PCM.
Or make a better sounding copy of it on a black sacd
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #82 –
Quote from: shakeshuck on
Quote from: nastea on
Quote from: shakeshuck on
At risk of getting my head bitten off again, here's another question that might appeal more to your reasoning:

Is there any Windows software (preferably free, or a trial version) where I can load a PCM and a DSD track simultaneously and subtract one from the other to display any difference (or NO difference!) between the two?
teac hi-res editor

I have used this for converting between file types for testing, but I am not aware that it will allow me to subtract samples from each other in order to easily see any differences.

The Teac editor seems pretty limited but it adds the functions needed to do production with DSD files, including file conversions. . In general many common editing functions have never been implemented in the DSD domain, so DSD files are often converted to PCM, edited, and then converted back to DSD. Most DSD recordings also have a PCM stage of processing of sorts as part of their workflow to avoid problems that are inherent in DSD-only ADCs.

Freebie PCM editors like Audacity Audacity Team Site are far more full-function, and have built-in functions for cutting, pasting, copying, changing levels and equalization. Audacity can exploit plug-ins of several different kinds including the very numerous VST plug-ins to obtain a wide variety of  additional editing functions.

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #83 –
Quote from: shakeshuck on
Quote from: Wombat on
Quote from: shakeshuck on
If a particularly masterful performance of a favourite piece of yours came out only on DSD, would you be happy to miss out on that simply because of your anti-DSD stance?
If that was the case i'd join an online forum to ask how to make it PCM.

LOL

I have a *universal" optical player that plays SACD, DVD-A and regular CDs.

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #84 –
Quote from: shakeshuck on
Quote from: saratoga on
Quote from: shakeshuck on
Quote from: andy o on
Saying that you're taking no position or that you're somehow in the middle implies there are 2 positions that are equivalent in the first place. You may not be taking any of your 2 imagined positions, but you are taking a position. A better way to approach this if you are a newb to the subject is to just ask what does the science say up to now.

I obviously misread the tone of the forum when I first started posting.
I assumed there would be proponents of both PCM and DSD on here, happily comparing notes - so I made a comment aimed at not offending one way or the other.



DSD is a dead format, in part because it was a technically inferior option, in part because it was used as a vehicle for pushing DRM, and in part due to questionable marketing and product positioning.

Outside of hipsters, collectors and the ignorant, you probably won't find many proponents of the format.

If a particularly masterful performance of a favourite piece of yours came out only on DSD, would you be happy to miss out on that simply because of your anti-DSD stance?

What anti-DSD stance? 

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #85 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
In general many common editing functions have never been implemented in the DSD domain, so DSD files are often converted to PCM, edited, and then converted back to DSD. Most DSD recordings also have a PCM stage of processing of sorts as part of their workflow to avoid problems that are inherent in DSD-only ADCs.
Yeah, for example DXD
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_eXtreme_Definition

At the end the OP could just be comparing PCM with PCM.

I fiddled with Sony's DSD recorder in the past and used some tools to convert DSD to PCM.
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,107529.0.html

Apart from the shaped noise in the DSF file, RMAA did not show meaningful differences in the recorded PCM and DSD file.

https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,107528.0.html

Maybe the tools I used to convert DSF to PCM are more reliable than TEAC's.

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #86 –
Quote
Is there any Windows software (preferably free, or a trial version) where I can load a PCM and a DSD track simultaneously and subtract one from the other to display any difference (or NO difference!) between the two?

FYI, my converter ReSampler is a command-line tool which can convert DSD .dsf and .dff files to various PCM formats. (Or if you prefer a graphical interface, use ferocious)

You could use an audio editor (eg Audacity or Cool Edit / Audition) to do the subtracting.
However, in terms of subtracting / nulling a DSD and PCM version of the same track, as pointed-out by others, they would need to be converted to a common sample rate.

Also, the group delay caused by the FIR filter used in the conversion may result in the two files not being exactly time-aligned, so care would need to be taken to ensure that they are time-aligned properly,
Additionally, SACDs are supposed to be mastered so that they peak at -6dB FS or 50% (although, in practice, many are a bit hotter than that), so care would also need to be taken to ensure the levels are matched.

Finally, if you were to compare a PCM release of a track, with it's DSD-to-PCM counterpart, then you would need to be absolutely sure that the two versions are from the same master, which is not at all easy to be certain about.

In my experience, many DSD titles (with a few notable exceptions, such as the files from the 2L Hires Test-Bench, which do seem to have genuine supersonic audio content) don't appear to have meaningful musical content that the PCM version doesn't have, with the main difference being the presence of DSD dither in the DSD version (which is noise-shaped into the supersonic region, and easily recognizable in a spectrum analyzer).  

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #87 –
Thanks all, I think I'm getting the message.

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #88 –
Quote from: shakeshuck on
If a particularly masterful performance of a favourite piece of yours came out only on DSD, would you be happy to miss out on that simply because of your anti-DSD stance?
that's capitalism, you get to vote all day long with your wallet. if I was against DSD but bought 3 SACDs every month, it wouldn't make much sense.

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #89 –
Quote from: shakeshuck on
Quote from: Wombat on
Quote from: shakeshuck on
If a particularly masterful performance of a favourite piece of yours came out only on DSD, would you be happy to miss out on that simply because of your anti-DSD stance?
If that was the case i'd join an online forum to ask how to make it PCM.

LOL

The joke is on anybody who thinks that they can actually listen to DSD music without PCM being part of the signal flow.  For example, try to find any audio  product that implements bass management or room optimization in the digital domain without first converting it to PCM.

Even Sony admits that their studio recording process for DSD involves a stage of what for all practical purposes is PCM.

The latter fact is another one of those things that is hidden away in dusty academic papers, and not exactly headlined in the high end audio publications or enthusiast's web site.

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #90 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
(2) Measure the RMS or if no RMS calculation is available, the average value associated with the level of music between the two points in each piece of music.
He should probably lowpass to no greater than the nyquist of the PCM samplerate first.

Yes, that's just common sense, but I need to remember that which is common sense for old hands is not necessarily common sense for newbies.

BTW I analyzed a randomly selected file from  the stereo 24/192 files ("2L-086") from the "High Rez Test Bench" Hi Rez Test bench Files

The "Total RMS Power" of the file as received was -22.23 dB (L) and -21.66 (R). High pass filtered with a filter @ 20 KHz with a 1 KHz transition band, the residual > 20 KHz was -71.68 (L) and -65.56 (R).  Rough estimate is that the residual, being > 40 dB down would at worst cause an error to the level matching process on the order of < 1% or  < 0.1 dB and would therefore not be significantly  detrimental to the level matching process.

This is consistent with other similar tests I have performed over the past 15 or so years.

That these kind of results are common is just one more reason why removing all music > 20 KHz is generally inaudible. There is hardly any energy > 20 KHz in natural music. Compound that by the ear's lack of sensitivity > 20 KHz and frost the cake with masking and you've basically got Mission Impossible.

A possible exception would be a file where there was a continuous high amplitude tone, such as might be added by a switchmode power supply and/or  a poor equipment design or test setup.

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #92 –
Quote from: judd on
FYI, my converter ReSampler is a command-line tool which can convert DSD .dsf and .dff files to various PCM formats. (Or if you prefer a graphical interface, use ferocious)

Maybe a bit off-topic but it seems that your software's UI is not DPI-aware. While hi-res audio does no harm to my ears a hi-res monitor does hurt my eyes. The recent Windows 10 Creators Update advocating improvement in UI scaling is a pure joke, I used it for no more than 3 hours and reverted to Windows 7.

Quote from: judd on
files from the 2L Hires Test-Bench

Back to the topic. Just in case shakeshuck wants to ABX 2L's files.
"Some 2L Hi-Res music samples are either botched or cooked"
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,111416.0.html

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #93 –
Quote from: bennetng on

Back to the topic. Just in case shakeshuck wants to ABX 2L's files.
"Some 2L Hi-Res music samples are either botched or cooked"
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,111416.0.html

Amen brother. A good example of a botched high-profile test would be the AIX files that were circulated via AVS a few years back.

To be sure, the best practice is to examine the high rez file with a good audio editor for glitches, including looking at its spectral content for spurious tones ands noises,  and then do the downsampling to CD quality yourself using well known or at least well-tested tools, followed by  examination of your newly created file as above and additional checks for level matching and  time synchronization.

 When you downsample, beware that some downsamplers have incredibly narrow transition bands and might  cause exceptional  ringing that in turn might even create an audible tell in the form of clipping or IM.

In addition, it can be wise to make some downsampled files to lower sample rates and word lengths then your target test for listener training.  Trying to detect something that isn't already familiar sets the stage for frustration and failure.

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #95 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote
A possible exception would be a file where there was a continuous high amplitude tone
...or DSD.

Close, but not quite. I did the same test on 24/96  silence processed by the Teac DSD editor, and found that the noise > 20 KHz had an average  power of -67 dB, which is also significantly more than 40 dB below  the average power of my reference music. So whether you filter it out or not, its impact is exceedingly unlikely to be audible (< 0.1 dB) .

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #96 –
Perhaps relevant enough to cause a noticeable difference in calculated playback gain when sent through a broken volume leveler?

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #97 –
What about a simple start with a dsd->PCM->dsd 2x converted file created with something like SoX? Pimped SoX for dsd support by Mans Rullgard
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #98 –
I think these DSD discussions often get confused because IMO there are two different questions and sometimes we end up with a moving target, deliberate or not:

1. CD quality vs. higher res, be it PCM or DSD.
2. DSD vs. higher res. PCM.

#1 is easier to test and if one can't ABX a difference, then #2 is pretty much academic.

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #99 –
Sure but this is the problem here. PCM behaves different because of the playbackchain makes it hard to do an abx. You can do dsd->44.1->dsd to have some easy start for your playbackchain in comparing the original dsd to. If there is nothing heard you are done with the dsd or PCM discussion.
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!