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Topic: What is the real _lowest_ audible frequency? (Read 36543 times) previous topic - next topic
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What is the real _lowest_ audible frequency?

Bass-ically, I have the following questions:

1) How can we define the lower boundary frequency in a sensible way?
2) What is it?  The closest thing I've come to a figure allegedly quoted from experiments, is the 12 Hz that Wikipedia quotes with reference to a 1967 textbook.
3) How did the misleading "20 Hz" figure come about?  (Just because it looks nice next to the other "20"?)


And the blah-blah part:

The often quoted upper audible frequency of 20 kHz is set as a rough estimate of where the threshold of hearing hits the threshold of pain, see e.g. the graph at http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/ath-top.png .  Obviously the "20 Hz" figure is not set by the same principle - the gap between the red lines down there is a mighty fifty decibels, and the lower one doesn't even hit eighty.  Hardly ear-splitting levels.  And it has been known since ages that we actually do hear subsonics (not merely sense it in the gut) way before it gets uncomfortable - the eight-octaves-from-16-Hz Bösendorfer 290 has been in production for over a century by now.  And during the last decade, a handful of bass guitar extremists have employed instruments ranging down to subcontra C# (then detuned a half-step to match the 290), and the discussion over audibility was raised over and over again - by people with Logitech speakers, I assume, because it really isn't hard to verify with a sine tone on equipment that can reproduce it.

What is the real _lowest_ audible frequency?

Reply #1 –
Might be useful:


I'd say it's simply a matter of perception. At and below 20 Hz the tonal sensation fades.

The increase in sensitivity is smooth however so there is no abrupt cutoff.
You can still perceive lower frequencies but such tones won't sound like tones anymore but feel more like a rough and distinct periodic change in pressure.
"I hear it when I see it."

What is the real _lowest_ audible frequency?

Reply #2 –
Quote from: Porcus on
Bass-ically, I have the following questions:

1) How can we define the lower boundary frequency in a sensible way?


Perhaps  we first need to be able to define the presence of a periodic wave in a reliable way that is as free of judgement calls as possible.

I'm thinking that a test for the reliable perception of differences in pitch might be an angle to pursue.

What is the real _lowest_ audible frequency?

Reply #3 –
Quote from: xnor on
Might be useful:

[...]

The increase in sensitivity is smooth however so there is no abrupt cutoff.


Indeed! Not only smooth, it even looks like the curve might be mildly inflecting around 30 Hz. Thanks for the graph.

What is the real _lowest_ audible frequency?

Reply #4 –
Quote from: xnor on
You can still perceive lower frequencies but such tones won't sound like tones anymore but feel more like a rough and distinct periodic change in pressure.

I'd like to point out that subjectively to me "good" reproduced or live bass seems to resonate cleanly and distinctly tonal while "poorly" reproduced bass seems by comparison muddied and or muffled. I don't seem to notice a "rough" sound with low bass frequencies on my system.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?  ;~)

What is the real _lowest_ audible frequency?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Porcus on
And it has been known since ages that we actually do hear subsonics (not merely sense it in the gut) way before it gets uncomfortable - the eight-octaves-from-16-Hz Bösendorfer 290 has been in production for over a century by now.  And during the last decade, a handful of bass guitar extremists have employed instruments ranging down to subcontra C# (then detuned a half-step to match the 290), and the discussion over audibility was raised over and over again - by people with Logitech speakers, I assume, because it really isn't hard to verify with a sine tone on equipment that can reproduce it.


But can you reproduce those frequencies at a sufficient level without distortion? How we know people aren't hearing overtones or distortion rather than the fundamental?

What is the real _lowest_ audible frequency?

Reply #6 –
Here's a simple low frequency test file I made in Audacity: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ost&id=7908

It starts with 15, 20, 25, 30, and 35 Hz tones, and then has an oscillating 15-25 Hz sweep.

I played it back with my Xonar DGX through a Corda HA-1 headphone amp into my Sennheiser HD-600 headphones while recording back into the DGX with a micrphone capsule sandwiched between the headphones and one ear to try to get a rough idea of how much distortion there was: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ost&id=7909

I could hear something at 15 Hz, but that might have been distortion as the mic showed a 30 Hz harmonic, which I presume wasn't from the mic itself distorting while recording. At 20 to 25 Hz I could definitely sense the signal, but it felt more like a vibrating pressure than a "tone". 30 Hz and up is where it begins to take on a vague semblance of a tone or note with a perceivable pitch.

What is the real _lowest_ audible frequency?

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Porcus on
Indeed! Not only smooth, it even looks like the curve might be mildly inflecting around 30 Hz. Thanks for the graph.

Yeah, at some point the pressure changes are so high that frequency becomes less important.


Quote from: 2tec on
I'd like to point out that subjectively to me "good" reproduced or live bass seems to resonate cleanly and distinctly tonal while "poorly" reproduced bass seems by comparison muddied and or muffled. I don't seem to notice a "rough" sound with low bass frequencies on my system.

What frequencies are we talking about? I doubt lower than ~20 Hz. Also, the "roughness" of very low frequency tones is not a matter of reproduction.. Poorly reproduced bass would actually make it sound more tonally due to higher frequency distortion products.
"I hear it when I see it."

What is the real _lowest_ audible frequency?

Reply #8 –
Quote
I'd like to point out that subjectively to me "good" reproduced or live bass seems to resonate cleanly and distinctly tonal while "poorly" reproduced bass seems by comparison muddied and or muffled.
The lowest note on a standard bass guitar is about 40Hz.  A kick drum may go lower.  A piano also goes lower, but I'm pretty sure you mostly hear harmonics when the lowest notes on a piano are played.  Most professional sound reinforcement woofers/subwoofers are rated down to around 40Hz.  Some Cerwin-Vega subwoofers go down to about 30Hz.

So in a typical live performance, you probably are not getting to the lower limits of perception.

What is the real _lowest_ audible frequency?

Reply #9 –
The lower limit we can sense through cochlear stimulation is different from the lower limit we can sense through sound exposure in a room because part of really deep sound is picked up tactilely largely through hairs on our skin vibrating and perhaps even pinna flapping. So test results using IEMs, vs circumaural headphones, vs subwoofers can all yield different results even for the same individual.

As I understand it, the often quoted "20 Hz" is indeed the rough lower limit for cochlear sound perception. Sensing, for instance, your pant legs are flapping back and forth or hair cells are being modulated goes a bit lower.

What is the real _lowest_ audible frequency?

Reply #11 –
Infra-low frequencies for people subconsciously associated with danger, these frequency bands is better not to hear. Designed (seems) even work to create "fear emitters" for military forces, with ranges of more than 8 Hz.

What is the real _lowest_ audible frequency?

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Rotareneg on
Here's a simple low frequency test file I made in Audacity: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ost&id=7908

It starts with 15


Dangerous order ;-) I assume that people here have the common sense to play it through once or twice before turning up. Yeah the drop from 35 (total effect in my ears and my speakers) is massive.

The sweep is useful (more than the first youtube hits a lazy person can find), thank you for that one... not on behalf of my neighbours I bet.

What is the real _lowest_ audible frequency?

Reply #13 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
The lowest note on a standard bass guitar is about 40Hz.


Yep, but in genres like metal and funk, there are lots of five-string basses tuned to B0 at 31 Hz. Still not quite the piano range, but these basses are there for the deeper fundamental.

The 23 Hz F# is quite rare, and instruments designed for that tuning were AFAIK only recently available as retail from a major manufactorer.
Sound samples of tuning to subcontra C# at 17: http://jauqoiii-x.com/JK_pages/JK_music.html (too bad the music is boring.)

Quote from: DVDdoug on
A kick drum may go lower.  A piano also goes lower, but I'm pretty sure you mostly hear harmonics when the lowest notes on a piano are played.


Yes and the harmonics is one good justification for having the lower strings at all. A bass line that progresses down will be perceived to do just that even though the fundamental "disappears".



Quote from: mzil on
Sensing, for instance, your pant legs are flapping back and forth


If you ever attend a Sunn O))) concert, you can delete the "pant" part of the sentence. 


Quote from: lsn_RU on
Infra-low frequencies for people subconsciously associated with danger, these frequency bands is better not to hear.


I take that to mean you do not like action movies ...

What is the real _lowest_ audible frequency?

Reply #15 –
Quote from: TomasPin on
Quote from: Porcus on
I take that to mean you do not like action movies ...

That reminded me of a certain French cult film I never dared to watch, though not for that particular reason.


I thought of exactly the same thing,  when I  saw a discussion about low frequency. But I  just learned, thanks to your link that it's only "28 hz" (I  thought it was much lower). This film is sick, it's almost a traumatic experience (why someone sane, would want to see that ?).

I  also got once a sensation of "vertigo" with a game, they added low frequency on purpose when evolving above a pit ( no idea of the low  frequency added).
But the sound was clearly disturbing my gaming abilities, I  got to remove my headphones.

Finally , I  must also mention the dark ambient  artist Lustmord, that use very low frequencies on purpose, I  got once a "mild"  vertigo sensation while listening to the Heresy album.

What is the real _lowest_ audible frequency?

Reply #16 –
This cat, perhaps through whisker modulations (much like as I mentioned we use skin hair modulations for infrasonic detection), is registering individual puffs of compressed air and seems very confused why there is no visual component to what is being experienced:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcUtsFzYDk4

What is the real _lowest_ audible frequency?

Reply #17 –
I recall reading that our hearing sensitivity begins to decrease below about 80 Hz and is augmented by our body feeling the vibration on the skin and internally.  I need to find a reference, but I also recall that clinically deaf people can perceive low frequency vibrations through this mechanism. So "sub-sonic" frequencies are different than "ultra-sonic" in that we can perceive them through feeling and not just pure hearing via ears. So I think defining a low frequency cutoff is a little more complex.
Was that a 1 or a 0?

What is the real _lowest_ audible frequency?

Reply #18 –
Quote from: DigitalMan on
I recall reading that our hearing sensitivity begins to decrease below about 80 Hz and is augmented by our body feeling the vibration on the skin and internally.


Does that mean that to get the best possible bass reproduction, we should listen naked?

What is the real _lowest_ audible frequency?

Reply #19 –
Quote from: julf on
Does that mean that to get the best possible bass reproduction, we should listen naked?

Particularly at any live acoustic concert! 

(but seriously, I almost did make that suggestion to an ~audiophile which insists, among other things, that skin hair are instrumental in our perception of sound...)

What is the real _lowest_ audible frequency?

Reply #20 –
Quote from: julf on
Does that mean that to get the best possible bass reproduction, we should listen naked?

Umm - you mean you don't already? I thought everyone did...
Was that a 1 or a 0?

What is the real _lowest_ audible frequency?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Porcus on
Bass-ically, I have the following questions:

1) How can we define the lower boundary frequency in a sensible way?
2) What is it?  The closest thing I've come to a figure allegedly quoted from experiments, is the 12 Hz that Wikipedia quotes with reference to a 1967 textbook.
3) How did the misleading "20 Hz" figure come about?  (Just because it looks nice next to the other "20"?)


And the blah-blah part:

The often quoted upper audible frequency of 20 kHz is set as a rough estimate of where the threshold of hearing hits the threshold of pain, see e.g. the graph at http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/ath-top.png .  Obviously the "20 Hz" figure is not set by the same principle - the gap between the red lines down there is a mighty fifty decibels, and the lower one doesn't even hit eighty.  Hardly ear-splitting levels.  And it has been known since ages that we actually do hear subsonics (not merely sense it in the gut) way before it gets uncomfortable - the eight-octaves-from-16-Hz Bösendorfer 290 has been in production for over a century by now.  And during the last decade, a handful of bass guitar extremists have employed instruments ranging down to subcontra C# (then detuned a half-step to match the 290), and the discussion over audibility was raised over and over again - by people with Logitech speakers, I assume, because it really isn't hard to verify with a sine tone on equipment that can reproduce it.


check this out 

What is the real _lowest_ audible frequency?

Reply #22 –
Honestly, "0.189Hz" .. that sounds like a load of BS.

I don't think it is physically possible for ~2.5cm vocal cords to produce any significant SPL that low.

Lower generally accepted vocal folds range is what, 80 Hz?
"I hear it when I see it."

What is the real _lowest_ audible frequency?

Reply #23 –
 Since humans don't perceive .187 Hz (at least not as "sound"), and no microphone can record it, are we asking the elephants what frequency he is emitting?

What is the real _lowest_ audible frequency?

Reply #24 –
Quote from: mzil on
Since humans don't perceive .187 Hz (at least not as "sound"), and no microphone can record it, are we asking the elephants what frequency he is emitting?

It's certainly feasible to design a microphone that can record this - accurate reproduction would be a bit more challenging though!