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Topic: what we're up against (Read 100503 times) previous topic - next topic
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what we're up against

A mastering engineer said it on the internets!
So it must be true. 
http://stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpo...8&postcount=38

Quote
Quote

Well, I decided to try and keep lossless audio files on an ipod as a source (Just because its so darn handy when I don't feel like digging through my 2,000 cds). It's not perfect, but I think the sound is fair enough for such a tiny device. The only thing I've noticed is that the midrange is a little ragged for my tastes. Just a little thin and sometimes harsh. I can hear it just a tad on vocals. I don't want to mess with my entire system just to tune it to this little ipod. I bought a Grant Fidelity Tube buffer, which turned out to be ineffective (invisible, I'd say ) so now I'm thinking about sticking an eq someplace just for the ipod and tweak up the sound. Apples own eq settings are a little too dramatic for my tastes. I could Rockbox the ipod for the softwares equalizer, but I'm a mac man and I like iTunes.


I would submit that much of the "edge" is a function of playing the so-called lossless files. I realize these save space but have you tried importing a CD as raw, uncompressed AIF or WAV?

In my experience, these have a clear sonic advantage over even lossless files, which will inevitably be an additional step removed from the clock, hence be more "digital" sounding.

Just my perspective.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

what we're up against

Reply #1 –
LOL

what we're up against

Reply #2 –
This "lossless audio sounds bad" comes up pretty often.
To prove that, the most obscure theories about how the decompressing itself stresses the devices so they sound bad are invented...
Slimdevices for example has build devices that play compressed or wav files natively. The audiophile section is full of people that claim to clearly hear a difference. One guy over there was able to make measurements showing how the devices really produce a different noise spectrum when playing compressed against uncompressed. If i remember right the differences were below ~85dB.
I tried to spot a difference on my Slimdevice also but had no luck
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

what we're up against

Reply #4 –
No, the link was copied wrongly, hence the ellipsis.

The 'descriptions' thrown around in such 'discussions' are endlessly inventive if nothing else. Who knew about the perils of ragged frequencies?

what we're up against

Reply #5 –
The guy needs faster hardware to remove the "digital" decoding glitches?

Or maybe some high-end vendor would be willing to adjust his foobar2000 buffer setting for a measly $2000?

what we're up against

Reply #6 –
Quote from: dv1989 on
No, the link was copied wrongly, hence the ellipsis.

The 'descriptions' thrown around in such 'discussions' are endlessly inventive if nothing else. Who knew about the perils of ragged frequencies?

Well, at least the theory about induced noise by CPU activity has some foundation in reality. I wouldn't expect to be able to hear a difference, but it's possible and IMO shouldn't be completely dismissed without measurements.

what we're up against

Reply #7 –
That's a more plausible example. However, as we know here, too often those making claims about high end equipment, lossy lossless, etc. make no recourse to evidence (or are apoplectic when asked for it: "Why don't YOU prove there's NOT a difference?"). "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof."

what we're up against

Reply #9 –
X is more impractical.
Therefore, fewer people bother with X.
Therefore, X must sound better.
And because I'm one of the few that "know" this,  I feel better about myself.


Seriously, can't these people come up with less idiotic ways to gratify themselves?
elevatorladylevitateme

what we're up against

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Porcus on
If I scroll when listening to music on my work computer, I hear the electric noise (from the graphics card).

But why not use toslink?

What you're likely hearing is bus contention, because most graphics card drives "cheat" and don't play fair with the bus.  Toslink won't solve that problem as it is not analog interference.
Creature of habit.

what we're up against

Reply #11 –
Quote from: Wombat on
One guy over there was able to make measurements showing how the devices really produce a different noise spectrum when playing compressed against uncompressed. If i remember right the differences were below ~85dB.

SORRY for confusion!! I found this thread and he measured indeed a difference as low as -110dB http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php...p;postcount=105
So we can surely say there simply isn´t any audible difference in how the Slimdevices play back flac and wav.

But this is again that kind of discussion that leads to nothing in the end
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!
 

what we're up against

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Light-Fire on
Quote from: krabapple on
A mastering engineer said it on the internets!
So it must be true. 
http://stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpo...8&postcount=38


The link is broken. Maybe the mastering "engineer" realized the stupid thing he said and took it down.



Nope, it's still there.  I pasted an ellipsed URL by mistake.  Here's the expanded one:

http://stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php...mp;postcount=38


And btw they were talking about 'differences' heard when playing lossless compressed (presumably Apple Lossless) vs uncompressed from an iPod.  Graphics card noise?  Bus contention?

what we're up against

Reply #13 –
Quote from: Soap on
Quote from: Porcus on
If I scroll when listening to music on my work computer, I hear the electric noise (from the graphics card).

But why not use toslink?

What you're likely hearing is bus contention, because most graphics card drives "cheat" and don't play fair with the bus.  Toslink won't solve that problem as it is not analog interference.

Huh. Never thought of that.

<ironydetectorcalibrationmode>
Well surely this problem can only manifest itself with compressed file formats and never with WAV, making the former sound way more digital   
</ironydetectorcalibrationmode>

what we're up against

Reply #14 –
<sarcasmmode on>
No, that is jitter what you are hearing.
</sarcasmmode off>
TAPE LOADING ERROR

what we're up against

Reply #15 –
Some impressive-looking boxes they got there, along with equally impressive price tags. If most mastering engineers indeed use that sort of thing, or even (heaven forbid) magic stones and platinum-plated cables, we as consumers of CDs may be the ones who end up paying for the stuff. What goes around comes around! Not that I'm equating EQ components with voodoo, but if the same effects can be had for much less $ in properly-designed software (and would be, if it weren't for mythmongers like Diament), such engineers are being fiscally irresponsible. So much for the old argument that it doesn't hurt anyone if a lot of folks exercise their right to believe in rubbish and buy accordingly.

what we're up against

Reply #16 –
There's a really key phrase in what Barry said which highlights his thinking:

Quote
additional step removed from the clock


... as if "the clock" is some tangible, physical entity, located with a pin on a map (also tangible!)

"What we're up against" is largely a folksy, common-sense thinking about deeply technical subjects, instead of how such subjects are traditionally taught - with rigor. The intrinsics of the components, and the basic principles of operation, matter more than the actual behavior of the device and its actual effect on the human sensorium.

Faith-based engineering, if you will.

what we're up against

Reply #18 –
Quote from: MedO on
Well, at least the theory about induced noise by CPU activity has some foundation in reality. I wouldn't expect to be able to hear a difference, but it's possible and IMO shouldn't be completely dismissed without measurements.


No the theory about induced noise by CPU activity has no foundation in reality at all.

Decoding both lossless and lossy files happens entirely in the digital domain. All of this software is digital in, digital out.  If the CPU made enough noise or other errors to affect this process, then it would affect other decompression processes, such as the decompression of .EXE files before they are executed. If you change even just one bit in a million in EXE files during decompression, your system won't boot.

Now if someone said that system activity can cause electrical trash on some analog audio output of some audio interface on a system board, then yes that can and does happen. But you can't generalize from that factoid to much of anything related to compressed audio files in general.

Let's face it, if some cheapskate or penniless person has trashy audio gear that performs in an audibly substandard fashion, we need to man up and help the guy straighten out his life and call a spade a space. We shouldn't formulate half-baked hypotheses that needlessly libels such a wide category of valuable things as compressed audio files.

what we're up against

Reply #19 –
Quote from: krabapple on
http://stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php...mp;postcount=38



"Originally Posted by chadbang" 
Well, I decided to try and keep lossless audio files on an ipod as a source (Just because its so darn handy when I don't feel like digging through my 2,000 cds). It's not perfect, but I think the sound is fair enough for such a tiny device. The only thing I've noticed is that the midrange is a little ragged for my tastes. Just a little thin and sometimes harsh. I can hear it just a tad on vocals. I don't want to mess with my entire system just to tune it to this little ipod. I bought a Grant Fidelity Tube buffer, which turned out to be ineffective (invisible, I'd say ) so now I'm thinking about sticking an eq someplace just for the ipod and tweak up the sound. Apples own eq settings are a little too dramatic for my tastes. I could Rockbox the ipod for the softwares equalizer, but I'm a mac man and I like iTunes."

Can we all say "Sighteed evaluation"?

Quote
And btw they were talking about 'differences' heard when playing lossless compressed (presumably Apple Lossless) vs uncompressed from an iPod.  Graphics card noise?  Bus contention?


Two probable causes.

Or, bad grounding on the system board or PC chassis.

Someone mentioned the possibility of using a digital output, but data loss due to bus contention will show up in the output digital datastream.

Reaching deep into my recollections of the history of computer audio interfaces...  ;-)

One of the first audio interfaces to be widely afllicted data loss due to bus contention was a PCI card with digital outputs.  It was called the Zefiro ZA2.

what we're up against

Reply #20 –
I never put the losslessness of the decoding process into question. But the normal operation of a computer system can cause noise to be induced into the analog audio circuits (by electromagnetic interference or fluctuations in the system voltage) that can be dependend on the system load and can be audible.

Yes, this is caused by badly designed audio hardware that doesn't filter/shield from that interference appropriately. Yes, it is not conclusive that this would make compressed files sound worse. However, you claim that
Quote
the theory about noise by CPU activity has no foundation in reality at all
, and I don't see how your post supports this statement. A badly designed portable audio player could very well have problems of that type.

As an aside, some CPUs even create noise directly under some load conditions (i.e. you can hear a low volume buzzing or beeping sound coming from the CPU, usually when the system is idle). It was a pretty widespread problem with some thinkpad models.

what we're up against

Reply #21 –
Quote from: MedO on
As an aside, some CPUs even create noise directly under some load conditions (i.e. you can hear a low volume buzzing or beeping sound coming from the CPU, usually when the system is idle). It was a pretty widespread problem with some thinkpad models.


 

It does not come from CPU!
CPU's does not "buzz" or make chirping sounds, they are not crickets! They have no moving parts whatsoever, that could move or vibrate in any possible way!

The high pitched noise that comes from some computers are produced by DC/DC converters. Here is a thread, look for jimmy274's explanation of a problem.
TAPE LOADING ERROR

what we're up against

Reply #22 –
Quote from: hlloyge on
Quote from: MedO on
As an aside, some CPUs even create noise directly under some load conditions (i.e. you can hear a low volume buzzing or beeping sound coming from the CPU, usually when the system is idle). It was a pretty widespread problem with some thinkpad models.


 

It does not come from CPU!
CPU's does not "buzz" or make chirping sounds, they are not crickets! They have no moving parts whatsoever, that could move or vibrate in any possible way!

The high pitched noise that comes from some computers are produced by DC/DC converters. Here is a thread, look for jimmy274's explanation of a problem.

Piezo speakers have no "moving parts" either. I just saw this being attributed to the CPU directly several times, and the sound does come from that direction. It might not be the CPU itself, but that doesn't make much of a difference for the purposes of this thread.

By the way, what are the moving parts in DC/DC converters?

what we're up against

Reply #23 –
Quote from: hlloyge on
Quote from: MedO on
As an aside, some CPUs even create noise directly under some load conditions (i.e. you can hear a low volume buzzing or beeping sound coming from the CPU, usually when the system is idle). It was a pretty widespread problem with some thinkpad models.


 

It does not come from CPU!
CPU's does not "buzz" or make chirping sounds, they are not crickets! They have no moving parts whatsoever, that could move or vibrate in any possible way!

The high pitched noise that comes from some computers are produced by DC/DC converters. Here is a thread, look for jimmy274's explanation of a problem.


Some chips do actually emit audible noise due to instanteous changes in electrical power dissipation. It is not uncommon with high powered audio amplifiers. I believe this is either piezoelectric or thermal. Chips definately power cycle rapidly under stress.

Another common clase of noisemakers are transformers and inductors. I've seen system boards with upwards of a half-dozen DC-DC converters lined up next to the CPU like little tin soldiers. The usual mechanism is called magnetostriction. Magnetostrictive materials change size and/or shape when subjected to a variable magnetic field. Iron and steel are generally magnetostrictive. There can also be vibration of windings if they aren't properly glued down.

As components get smaller but handle signficant power, the magnetic field intensities inside them can become large enough to make once subtle effects far more apparent.

Power management inside PCs is getting to be a big thing. This means that power levels can vary rapdily and follow changes in the computational load.

what we're up against

Reply #24 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
As components get smaller but handle signficant power, the magnetic field intensities inside them can become large enough to make once subtle effects far more apparent.

Power management inside PCs is getting to be a big thing. This means that power levels can vary rapdily and follow changes in the computational load.
Could that mean that an iPod actually could sound different when it handles different codecs?? Because of power fluctuations?

Until now I didn´t answer in this thread because I thought if an audio engineer like Barry making such a statement is an abomination... sorry. Look here, he even uses some fancy racks for components with non-moving parts. For me, these racks make sense with moving-parts... but that?
marlene-d.blogspot.com