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Topic: Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound? (Read 14244 times) previous topic - next topic
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Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Should I use a headamp or headphone to get a colored sound? Which one will achieve the effect more drastically, distortionless?

The problem with headphones is that most of the manufactures don't reveal any information about what kind of sound they have (other than the generic "audiophile quality" slogans), and you can only rely on word of mouth from "audiophiles" about how they sound.

And also, I already have the Sennheiser HD555 and HD600, I don't want to get too many headphones.

However, for amps, many of them specifically tell you which opamp is used in them, and some deliberately exaggerate some frequencies.

Lastly, I want an amp because my HD600 with my zune sounds "thin", meaning that I can't hear the harmonic reverberance that I hear with my HD555. This is most clearly illustrated with the harpsichord, I don't hear as much "echo" with the HD600. Because the harpsichord is supposed to "echo" and produce a ringing sound field around the room.

Is this because that I need an amp? I'm not really sure what "nautral" in terms of the source recordings that I'm listening to should sound like. Either they do sound flat (without reverbration), or they do sound more reverberant but need amplifying?

Thanks.

Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Reply #1 –
The most cost-effective and in general most effective way to alter the sound is to get an equalizer. That will allow you the most precision and control over the sound, and an equalizer can not only color the sound, but make it more accurate as well (by compensating for the headphone's frequency response). Equalizing cannot make up for inadequate amplification, however (especially for high-impedance phones such as the HD600) I wouldn't worry all too much about that. The HD555 probably doesn't need an amp, and an amplifier for phones such as the HD600 can be very inexpensive - see http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHHA400. The Samson S-amp, if you want something nicer, comes in a better aluminum case and offers more output power (though it's highly unlikely you'll need it). It's usually a better course of action to buy components with low distortion and a linear frequency response, and then use an equalizer (such as http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHDEQ2496 which comes with a nice DAC built-in) and have a fully customizable setup that you can tweak to your needs.

Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Reply #2 –
Quote from: HTS on
Should I use a headamp or headphone to get a colored sound?


Neither. Amplifiers are supposed to be uncolored, or at least have some mode of operation that is uncolored.

if you want to recolor your sound to suit your preferences, get an equalizer.

I was looking around for a good-looking alternative, and I came up with this one:

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/FBQ800.aspx

Quote
Which one will achieve the effect more drastically, distortionless?


I don't think that you know that you just asked for something that is imposible. If some component changes sound quality, or adds some sort of audible effect, then it almost certainly has distortion.


Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Reply #3 –
Quote from: HTS on
However, for amps, many of them specifically tell you which opamp is used in them, and some deliberately exaggerate some frequencies.


It strikes me as incredibly odd that you'd ask about an amp coloring the sound considering you have been active in the other headphone amp thread.  An amp is not supposed to color the sound.  I have found little to no evidence to support the claim that opamps have audible differences.  People on certain forums report sonic differences but these differences are not evaluated in any controlled way.  People listen to a amp, swap the opamps, and listen again.  I've done this myself.  This method is not what most people on this forum would consider as a the type of listening test that would lead to a reliable and valid conclusion about the sonic differences of an opamp.

I have owned and heard a number of headphones.  After all my experiences I have come to this conclusion.  I have found that open headphones do not reproduce lower frequencies in a way that satisfy me.  It simply feels "off" from real life.  Consequently, all my headphones are closed or semi-open. 

If you want to color your sound get a new headphone or use an equalizer.  Amps are not for coloring the sound unless the specifically have a bass boost, treble boost, EQ, etc or suffer from some design induced alteration of the frequency response (e.g. bass rolloff).

Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Reply #4 –
Everybody's ear is slightly different. These differences are even more relevant, when you insert sound directly into the ear as with headphones.

My recommendation would be finding the one headphone, that fits you best. All good headphones have a non linear frequency response, so it's a good strategy to keep your whole playback chain perfectly neutral and put a matching speaker/headphone at the end as the only non-linear element. Speakers should mainly fit your listening room, headphones specifically your ears.

So if the HD 555 sounds better to your ears than the HD 600, it might be the better headphone for your ears, although it is the cheaper model.

Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I don't think that you know that you just asked for something that is imposible. If some component changes sound quality, or adds some sort of audible effect, then it almost certainly has distortion.

By "distortion" I meant specifically the hiss, I should have been more clear.

Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Reply #6 –
Quote from: HTS on
By "distortion" I meant specifically the hiss, I should have been more clear.


No properly built component should have hiss at any level. A solid EQ will not add any hiss, but it will also not remove it. If you currently have hiss, I would work on getting rid of that first (it shouldn't be too hard to do). If you don't have hiss and are worried about introducing hiss, stop worrying.

Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Reply #7 –
Quote from: odigg on
It strikes me as incredibly odd that you'd ask about an amp coloring the sound considering you have been active in the other headphone amp thread.  An amp is not supposed to color the sound.

That question was about an objective "quality" enchancement with amplifiers other than the volume. Preferring coloring is subjective, I didn't ask the same question.

Quote
An amp is not supposed to color the sound.
Well, I haven't done any double blind tests, but the opamps that can be plugged to those sound cards that allow swapping show very different response graphs. I'm not sure how the designers intended them to be.

Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: HTS on
Well, I haven't done any double blind tests, but the opamps that can be plugged to those sound cards that allow swapping show very different response graphs. I'm not sure how the designers intended them to be.


I've never seen anything like that before. Every opamp used for audio that I've seen data for has a flat frequency response. Do you have any graphs of these opamps, or know where I can find such info? I'm curious to see these graphs.

Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Reply #9 –
Quote
That question was about an objective "quality" enchancement with amplifiers other than the volume. Preferring coloring is subjective, I didn't ask the same question.


You'll have to define what you mean by "objective quality enhancement."  What's wrong with the quality of your current setup?  Are you sure it's not just that you do not prefer the sound of the HD600? 

If you've got a problem with hiss (noise) you've got to figure out where that is coming from.  A motherboard's onboard sound or laptop built in sound is a common source of noise.  This easily remedied.  Are you hearing hiss with the HD600 plugged into the Zune?

Quote
Well, I haven't done any double blind tests, but the opamps that can be plugged to those sound cards that allow swapping show very different response graphs. I'm not sure how the designers intended them to be.


As royalcrown said, some actual graphs would be nice.  Swapping in opamps is easy but keep in mind that you can't simply drop every opamp into a fixed circuit.  There is a reason that circuit design and opamp choice go together.  Even with a Cmoy, I'm sure I could drop in an opamp (out of heaven knows how many that are out there) that would result in an audible change in sound because the circuit is not appropriate for that opamp.  People have fried their devices by just randomly swapping opamps.

Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: royalcrown on
Quote from: HTS on
Well, I haven't done any double blind tests, but the opamps that can be plugged to those sound cards that allow swapping show very different response graphs. I'm not sure how the designers intended them to be.


I've never seen anything like that before. Every opamp used for audio that I've seen data for has a flat frequency response. Do you have any graphs of these opamps, or know where I can find such info? I'm curious to see these graphs.

I can't find them right now, I remember a site that sells like tens of thousands of kinds of opamps have them. Anyways it's probably the case that those differences in graphs are too small by your standard, as I don't remember them clearly. However, the manufacture of my sound card did say that certain opamp like the  AD8620BR opamp emphasizes high frequencies making the strings sound more prominent compared to the rest of the orchestra.

Quote
You'll have to define what you mean by "objective quality enhancement." What's wrong with the quality of your current setup? Are you sure it's not just that you do not prefer the sound of the HD600?
I meant revealing more detail in sound. Like the notes being clearer and sharper, drum beats being sharper, instead of bloated, mushy sounds. Basically all details are sharper.

The HD600 on the zune sounds anemic, that is no resonance and such. I hear such resonances on my computer, but not with the zune even at loud sound levels. It's like when a harpsichord plays you are supposed to hear a lot of resonance bouncing and echoing around. The same with wind instruments like the oboe, it's supposed to "fill the room" with resonance, but I don't hear that as I do with the HD555 or the HD600 plugged into the computer.

Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Reply #11 –
What kind of external amplifier are you using? (tube? solid-state?) Brand? Model?

BTW, all of the IC amplifier of DAPs(including Zune) in the current market are low-powered & current-driven. Since HD600 is high-impedance, in order to acquire enough power(W), it should be voltage-driven with a voltage source.

Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Reply #12 –
Quote from: udauda on
BTW, all of the IC amplifier of DAPs(including Zune) in the current market are low-powered & current-driven. Since HD600 is high-impedance, in order to acquire enough power(W), it should be voltage-driven with a voltage source.


I've heard this before but never really understood what it meant.  Can you explain?  What is current versus voltage driven?  Are you saying that current driven amplifiers can deliver a lot of current whereas a voltage driven can provide large voltage swings?

If so, why is this a problem with a portable player if the portable player can drive a high impedance headphone to loud (subjectively) volumes?  Granted, the voltage swing is restricted because of the battery, but what if it's enough for loud (subjectively) volumes?

Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Reply #13 –
Quote from: udauda on
What kind of external amplifier are you using? (tube? solid-state?) Brand? Model?

None, I plugged the HD600 directly into the zune.

Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Reply #14 –
Oh, so you're basically comparing a soundcard output with the one Zune has. I wonder how high the output impedance of a soundcard would be.. but I'm pretty sure it's much lower than Zune, which means Zune would lose its damping control(current drive) at the resonance freq(~100Hz) by some degree.

Also, make sure you're comparing HD600 under the same condition: bypass windows kernel mixer & do not add an extra dithering & upsampling & EQ and such to the DSP chain. Also, check out your soundcard's performance w/ RMAA so that it wouldn't introduce any non-linear distortions.

Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Reply #15 –
Get a headphone Y splitter, plug one end into your computer's line in, the other into your HD600s, and then run RMAA's test WAV on the Zune and see for yourself whats happening.  Will cost you maybe 30 minutes and a couple dollars for a headphone splitter if you don't have one already.

Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: udauda on
Oh, so you're basically comparing a soundcard output with the one Zune has. I wonder how high the output impedance of a soundcard would be.. but I'm pretty sure it's much lower than Zune, which means Zune would lose its damping control(current drive) at the resonance freq(~100Hz) by some degree.

Also, make sure you're comparing HD600 under the same condition: bypass windows kernel mixer & do not add an extra dithering & upsampling & EQ and such to the DSP chain. Also, check out your soundcard's performance w/ RMAA so that it wouldn't introduce any non-linear distortions.

I have done, that RMAA shows a very flat frequency response for my card.

On the zune, the notes do not sound as "fat", that is with resonance and harmonic overtones, as on the computer.

Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Reply #17 –
Quote from: HTS on
On the zune, the notes do not sound as "fat", that is with resonance and harmonic overtones, as on the computer.


Must be a cheap sound card, then. I don't know many RMAA plots of current cards that would show significant harmonic distortion.

Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Reply #18 –
Quote from: HTS on
I can't find them right now, I remember a site that sells like tens of thousands of kinds of opamps have them. Anyways it's probably the case that those differences in graphs are too small by your standard, as I don't remember them clearly. However, the manufacture of my sound card did say that certain opamp like the  AD8620BR opamp emphasizes high frequencies making the strings sound more prominent compared to the rest of the orchestra.


Really. Then take a look at the frequency response (especially 0 to 20kHz) of that opamp HERE and see if you still believe that nonsense.

Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Reply #19 –
Quote from: udauda on
Oh, so you're basically comparing a soundcard output with the one Zune has. I wonder how high the output impedance of a soundcard would be.. but I'm pretty sure it's much lower than Zune, which means Zune would lose its damping control(current drive) at the resonance freq(~100Hz) by some degree.

You are probably correct that the output impedance on the Zune is probably higher than a sound card.  But is this really an issue?  I'll just guess and say the the output impedance is between 5 and 20.  The HD600 has an impedance of 300.  There's enough space between the two for damping control to not be an issue.

My Nokia phone has a higher than 0 output impedance.  I use 25 ohm headphones with them.  There is a bit of a bass boost (less than a 1db bass hump).  It's not easily audible and I detect no loss of control in the bass range.

I'll throw another theory out there.  My sound card can easily drive the DT880 to volumes my portable player is unable to.  So it's very easy to listen to one device at louder volumes than the other.

Are you sure you are listening to the Zune and your sound card at the same volume?  If you are used to a certain volume on one device and listen to lower volumes on the Zune the Zune is going to sound muffled in comparison.  This happens to me from time to time and it usually takes me a bit of time to realize turning up the volume resolves this.

Finally, are you sure all EQ settings are off?

Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Reply #20 –
Quote from: uart on
Quote from: HTS on
I can't find them right now, I remember a site that sells like tens of thousands of kinds of opamps have them. Anyways it's probably the case that those differences in graphs are too small by your standard, as I don't remember them clearly. However, the manufacture of my sound card did say that certain opamp like the  AD8620BR opamp emphasizes high frequencies making the strings sound more prominent compared to the rest of the orchestra.


Really. Then take a look at the frequency response (especially 0 to 20kHz) of that opamp HERE and see if you still believe that nonsense.

Ok nevermind then.

Quote
Are you sure you are listening to the Zune and your sound card at the same volume? If you are used to a certain volume on one device and listen to lower volumes on the Zune the Zune is going to sound muffled in comparison. This happens to me from time to time and it usually takes me a bit of time to realize turning up the volume resolves this.

Yes, it's not a problem with "muffled" sound, it's a problem of harmonic overtones not being heard as they are on the computer.

Quote
Finally, are you sure all EQ settings are off?
Let me take a look at that. They should be.

Quote
Must be a cheap sound card, then. I don't know many RMAA plots of current cards that would show significant harmonic distortion.
How do you know that they are "distortion" and not supposed to be there?

Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: HTS on
Quote
Must be a cheap sound card, then. I don't know many RMAA plots of current cards that would show significant harmonic distortion.
How do you know that they are "distortion" and not supposed to be there?


When the sound card adds harmonic overtones, that are not in the original signal, that's called harmonic distortion.

According to what you have posted, you have them on the sound card, but not the Zune. Playback devices which would suppress harmonic overtones contained in the original signal are not existing. So either your sound card must be adding them or your provided information is wrong.

Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Reply #22 –
Quote from: HTS on
Yes, it's not a problem with "muffled" sound, it's a problem of harmonic overtones not being heard as they are on the computer.


Again, are you sure you are comparing the two devices at similar volume levels?  You wouldn't believe the differences in sound people can perceive because of different volume levels.

I have two more suggestions to try and isolate what you are describing.

1. Swap your headphones around (right/left) on your head with the Zune. 
2. Do you have any other device (another computer, a speaker amp, etc) with a headphone out?  Are you still hearing these differences when using those?




 

Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Reply #23 –
Quote from: odigg on
Quote from: HTS on
Yes, it's not a problem with "muffled" sound, it's a problem of harmonic overtones not being heard as they are on the computer.


Again, are you sure you are comparing the two devices at similar volume levels?  You wouldn't believe the differences in sound people can perceive because of different volume levels.

I have two more suggestions to try and isolate what you are describing.

1. Swap your headphones around (right/left) on your head with the Zune. 
2. Do you have any other device (another computer, a speaker amp, etc) with a headphone out?  Are you still hearing these differences when using those?

Actually I now think that it is an EQ thing, the Zune doesn't have an EQ, and it's default factory setting is too bright. I think I need the fiio amp for a bass boost to get the sounds that I want.

I think the soundcard has EQ on by default and can't be turned off, because there is an "environment size" option, that can't be disabled, ie. you have to select either large, medium or small.

I think all I need is a bass boost, and the fiio e5 should be a cheap way to do that right?

Using an amp or headphone for coloring sound?

Reply #24 –
Quote from: HTS on
I think the soundcard has EQ on by default and can't be turned off, because there is an "environment size" option, that can't be disabled,


Another symptom of the soundcard being close to useless.
Ceterum censeo, there should be an "%is_stop_after_current%".