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Topic: What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly? (Read 27511 times) previous topic - next topic
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What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly?

Reply #25 –
Quote
See the next couple sentences after the ones you quoted in my above post.

No problems Mike. So basically we can summarize that with a high efficiency amplifier design that only the required output power should matter and that the load impedance should be irrelevant.

Quote
I don't see how passing a blind test helps to determine "sound quality", it would only show
that there is audible difference. I have a portable amplifier that sounds tad bright and hence
possible to identify, but to say it is better would still be subjective mumbo-jumbo.

One problem here is that the phones themselves will have their own characteristics which are probably imperfect, and you're always going to be hearing the combined response of both the amplifier and phones, so yeah I agree that it's going to be hard to say that one is objectively better and not just personal preference.

At least with an RMAA test which includes the loading of the phones you can try to get a nice flat frequency response and good linearity then just hope that if the phones are well designed then they should sound natural with this excitation.

What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly?

Reply #26 –
BTW while we're talking about "subjective mumbo-jumbo" please have a look at this site for a bit of comic relief. I just found this yesterday when I was googling for info on headphone amplifiers and it's really quite funny.


See here : http://www.rock-grotto.co.uk/opamp.htm

Quote
OPA2604 sounded very warm, very laid back and very easy to listen to but slightly veiled in the detail department. "Chocolaty" and "syrupy" though a good easy to listen to Op amp but not my cup of tea as I prefer a greater insight into the mix.


That's just one gem, read the whole review it's hilarious. 

BTW. It's so uncanny how his rating of the OpAmps sonic quality correlates almost precisely with their cost in most cases. It’s a classic sighted audiophile type review for sure.

What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly?

Reply #27 –
Quote from: odigg on
Yes, you did not specifically say "sound quality" but I assumed it was implicit.  I may have done this in error so let me say you really claimed a difference in "sound quality" rather than an improvement. But you have made a claim to a sonic difference and this such a difference should be verifiable in a blind test.

You understood me correctly, but because of TOS8 I am not going to defend my position.  My point was more that even if someone passes a blind test, it tells nothing about "sound quality" to third parties.
Teemu

What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly?

Reply #29 –
Quote from: uart on
BTW while we're talking about "subjective mumbo-jumbo" please have a look at this site for a bit of comic relief. I just found this yesterday when I was googling for info on headphone amplifiers and it's really quite funny.


See here : http://www.rock-grotto.co.uk/opamp.htm


That page is virtually unreadable to my eyes makes about every web design mistake it is possible to make!  I think it should be submitted for the "roll of honor"  at  "web sites that suck".

Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly?

Reply #30 –
Quote from: tot on
My point was more that even if someone passes a blind test, it tells nothing about "sound quality" to third parties.


Not at all.  It tells you that theres actually a difference in sound quality between using the amp and not using the amp.  What else could you possibly want to know?

Well I guess you could want to know that the headphone amp isn't a complete piece of crap thats corrupting the otherwise pristine DAP output, but thats another matter.

What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly?

Reply #31 –
Quote from: uart on
Hi rpp3ro and odigg. I have to admit that most of my experience (and interest) here is not with DAP's but with sound cards and motherboard audio output stages. Here in RMAA tests I've found that onboard audio in particular can suffer a lot at low frequencies (roll off and added distortion) when low impedance phones are connected.


I can verify what you have said, at least as far as RMAA measurements are concerned.  However, the question of audibility is important for me.  I remember the first time I used headphones for a volume matched test comparing my motherboard's built in sound to eqiupment that was reportedly much better.  I was surprised to find that the audibility of the bass rolloff was fairly minor and IMHO, entirely forgettable if your goal was simply to listen to music as opposed to music production or something requiring a flat FR.  As for THD and IMD distortion, both where well below 1% even loaded with 25 ohm headphones.

Of course, when I was using the dedicated amp, it was full of chocolaty goodness with whipped cream on top. 

As always, the results depend on the sound hardware being tested.  Some sound cards sound more like 72% cocoa.

What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly?

Reply #32 –
I looked at some of the "professional" headphone amps, and they seem to be designed for the purpose of plugging many headphones in at once, where if you just use a jack splitter, the sound would be weak. So it seems the professionals in the business use amps mainly for driving many headphones.

Also, wish I hadn't bought that HT omega sound card for the headphone since headphone amps are mostly a scam, I could have gotten a creative Xfi which supports hardware accleration of sounds in games.

What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly?

Reply #33 –
Quote from: uart on
BTW while we're talking about "subjective mumbo-jumbo" please have a look at this site for a bit of comic relief. I just found this yesterday when I was googling for info on headphone amplifiers and it's really quite funny.


See here : http://www.rock-grotto.co.uk/opamp.htm

Quote
OPA2604 sounded very warm, very laid back and very easy to listen to but slightly veiled in the detail department. "Chocolaty" and "syrupy" though a good easy to listen to Op amp but not my cup of tea as I prefer a greater insight into the mix.


That's just one gem, read the whole review it's hilarious. 

BTW. It's so uncanny how his rating of the OpAmps sonic quality correlates almost precisely with their cost in most cases. It’s a classic sighted audiophile type review for sure.


Yes, it is really pathetic.

A pedantic point that also has real world relevance: The word test implies comparison to a reliable standard. So, what is the reliable standard for so-called tests like these?

In general the standard is someone's perceptions about what a recording or a set of recordings is supposed to sound like. But where do they get their ideas about what the recording is supposed to sound like? It isn't any relevant live performance because in many cases there never was a live performance. And it there was a live performance, there are still as many flavors of that, as there are places to sit or stand (note that sitting or standing usally makes a very audible difference).

In the end, their so-called reliable standard is something that they imagined.

What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly?

Reply #34 –
I was told by some headphone collector (not an audiophile), that a headphone amp is needed to deliver the "power" to the high class headphones, because the low bass notes need a lot of power for the driver to shake, and if there isn't enough power then the bass notes get distorted.

So this is independent of the "loudness".

Is this true?

What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly?

Reply #35 –
Quote from: HTS on
I was told by some headphone collector (not an audiophile), that a headphone amp is needed to deliver the "power" to the high class headphones, because the low bass notes need a lot of power for the driver to shake, and if there isn't enough power then the bass notes get distorted.

So this is independent of the "loudness".

Is this true?


No, it isn't.


Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly?

Reply #36 –
I agree that headphone amps can get out of control regarding price and claims of sound quality.

I do, however, own a headphone amp.  I use it with one of my squeezeboxes.  The headphone jack on the squeezebox (SB3, aka Classic) has some digital hash that can be heard when listening to quieter recordings.  It is very annoying.  This noise is not present on the line-outs.  So, I use my headphone amp connected to the line-outs of the squeezebox.  The headphone amp being a portable one (an XM5 from Practical Devices) is very small, so it and my SB3 fit nicely on my bedside table.

I'll use the XM5 with my iPod, but I'm not convinced that there is a significant difference in SQ.  I've never done an ABX test to see if I could tell the difference between the two.

What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly?

Reply #37 –
Quote from: maggior on
The headphone amp being a portable one (an XM5 from Practical Devices) is very small, so it and my SB3 fit nicely on my bedside table.


Maggior, I have been looking at an iBasso to connect a decent pair of phones to a Windows laptop.

I see your XM5 has an internal DAC (presumably USB fed), which would make it a comparable product to the iBasso. Are you in a position to compare them?

But, reading this tread an M-Audio Transit might do all I wand for a lot less money.
Brian

What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly?

Reply #38 –
Quote from: Labarum on
I see your XM5 has an internal DAC (presumably USB fed), which would make it a comparable product to the iBasso. Are you in a position to compare them?


I haven't owned either product but I can offer a comparison.  Assuming both DACS are decently built there should be no audible differences between them in a volume matched test.  And in this day and age it's no magic to build a DAC in a "decent" way.  RMAA measurements would be ideal but somebody would have to perform them.

And yes, the Transit should be fine.  It measures very well.  These are not measurements of a loaded (with headphones) line out, so keep that in mind.  The DAC is good, but the performance with headphones is unknown.

RMAA 16/44
RMAA 24/48

The Edirol UA-1EX is another option but I haven't seem RMAA measurements for it.

What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly?

Reply #39 –
Quote from: odigg on
I haven't owned either product but I can offer a comparison.  Assuming both DACS are decently built there should be no audible differences between them in a volume matched test.  And in this day and age it's no magic to build a DAC in a "decent" way.  RMAA measurements would be ideal but somebody would have to perform them.


While I mostly agree that a DAC is the wrong part of the audio chain to drop much money on (go for speakers) I could instantly ABX my $1000 Benchmark DAC1 against any other DAC in the house. The point is absolute noise level, which RMAA doesn't test. I just have to plug in my Westone UM2 IEMs, which are very sensitive. For example, the Macbook Pro's analog outs have terrible background noise, that almost sounds like a "spaceship bridge" sound effect (humming, hissing, beeping, rattling depending on load). My Sony CD player has a slighter but clearly audible constant hiss without beeping or rattling. Only the DAC1 has a very faint and homogenous background noise that reminds of a distant waterfall.

The UM2 have a sensitivity 119 dB/mW at 27 ohms. With less sensitive headphones everything sounds about the same, but I have yet to conclude a formal, level-matched comparison.

Edit: Normal listening levels apply to all claims. I do not have to artificially raise volume to unnatural listening levels to hear the noise.

What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly?

Reply #40 –
Quote from: rpp3po on
The UM2 have a sensitivity 119 dB/mW at 27 ohms. With less sensible headphones everything sounds about the same, but I have yet to conclude a formal, level-matched comparison.


I wish you'd have pointed this out in the first line of your post just so your first paragraph was seen in context.  If the $300 Westone UM2 needs a $1000 DAC for noise free operation, I'm inclined to point my finger at Westone for making a product that is too sensitive, not the noise of individual DACs.  By putting this line after your first paragraph I'm more inclined to put the blame on the DACs, not the UM2.

Quote
I was told by some headphone collector (not an audiophile), that a headphone amp is needed to deliver the "power" to the high class headphones, because the low bass notes need a lot of power for the driver to shake, and if there isn't enough power then the bass notes get distorted.


Certain "high class" headphones might need a dedicated amp but it's typically not for the reasons many people think about.  It seems like a lot of people think of the range of headphones (low end to high end) are like cars.  Typically, the more expensive the car the higher grade (octane of gas) it needs for the engine to operate properly (without engine knock).  A Formula 1 car requires a special blend of gasoline rarely used in a regular daily driver car.  The analogy would state a low end car is a Corolla (regular petrol) and a high end headphone is a F1 car (special petrol).

But this analogy is not correct when you are talking about headphones drivers. If you you are talking only about dynamic drivers (not planar drivers) the headphone drivers all operate the same way.  A high end headphone doesn't require some "special petrol" that a low end headphone does not need.

This is compounded by the reality that a lot of the "features" of High End headphones fall more into luxury marketing than technical improvements.  Exotic wood cups, fancy cables, sheepskin leather, fancy boxes, and of course the prestige associated with owning a luxury product.  But many people assume the "High End" moinker is due to some magic with the headphone driver, not simply because it is a luxury product.

Of course, I should place a caveat here.  Manufacturers may assume that if you are prepared to buy a "High Class" headphone you will not be using it with a IPOD Shuffle.  So you *may* need some device that can drive the headphone to preferred volumes without distortion or clipping during dynamic swings.  An example of such a headphone would be the higher end Sennheisers rated at 300 ohms but with a 600+ ohm impedance (according to Headphone.com) in the lower frequencies.

But you don't need some magical headphone amp for that.  Some expensive amps put out in excess of 1W with some massive voltage swing (24v +)which is a total overkill.  How much power does a headphone really need to damage your hearing?  A lot less than that!  Unfortunately the market for sensibly priced and sensibly built headphone amps is squashed and ignored under a never ending struggle to make "better" headphone amps at expensive prices.

What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly?

Reply #41 –
Quote from: odigg on
If the $300 Westone UM2 needs a $1000 DAC for noise free operation, I'm inclined to point my finger at Westone for making a product that is too sensitive, not the noise of individual DACs.  By putting this line after your first paragraph I'm more inclined to put the blame on the DACs, not the UM2.


I don't think anybody is to blame here. First, to me the UM2 are by far the best IEMs money can buy. So I don't feel inclined to educate Westone's engineers that they went wrong. High sensitivity has also advantages like less power consumption. Secondly, you probably don't need a $1000 DAC to drive them properly, but simply one with a matching low power output stage. That does not have to be expensive. However, it can be the comfort of an expensive DAC/amp package like Benchmark's that all phones from 10-1000 ohms and of any sensitivity work perfectly without further modification.
 

What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly?

Reply #42 –
Quote from: odigg on
Of course, I should place a caveat here.  Manufacturers may assume that if you are prepared to buy a "High Class" headphone you will not be using it with a IPOD Shuffle.  So you *may* need some device that can drive the headphone to preferred volumes without distortion or clipping during dynamic swings.  An example of such a headphone would be the higher end Sennheisers rated at 300 ohms but with a 600+ ohm impedance (according to Headphone.com) in the lower frequencies.

How does the Zune and regular sized ipods compare to the Shuffle?

How do I know if it's distorting or clipping? What would it sound like? Is it when you hear a very bloated bass instead of a sharp punch?

What kind of amp will be good for the 300ohm rated sennheiser headphones? Are those cheap fiio ones good enough?

What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly?

Reply #43 –
Quote from: HTS on
How does the Zune and regular sized ipods compare to the Shuffle?

How do I know if it's distorting or clipping? What would it sound like? Is it when you hear a very bloated bass instead of a sharp punch?

What kind of amp will be good for the 300ohm rated sennheiser headphones? Are those cheap fiio ones good enough?

The "bloated" bass is most likely due to the source or the headphone/speaker. Analog distortion is something you surely have heard before, when you turn up the volume too much on your radio. Clipping is the digital equivalent, it sounds a bit different, maybe like loud pops.

"Regular sized" iPods, by the way, had some interference noise coming out of from the hard drive, so flash-based iPods or music players might (just might) have that advantage. But with my Classic 80GB, that noise is gone. I experienced it with the iPod photo, if I'm not mistaken. I had a 3G iPod before that.

What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly?

Reply #44 –
Quote from: rpp3po on
While I mostly agree that a DAC is the wrong part of the audio chain to drop much money on (go for speakers) I could instantly ABX my $1000 Benchmark DAC1 against any other DAC in the house. The point is absolute noise level, which RMAA doesn't test.


The noise floor test in RMAA when coupled with a proper impedance load should give you that result.  Of course, for best results you should also adjust the volume to your desired listening level as well.

Quote from: rpp3po on
I just have to plug in my Westone UM2 IEMs, which are very sensitive. For example, the Macbook Pro's analog outs have terrible background noise, that almost sounds like a "spaceship bridge" sound effect (humming, hissing, beeping, rattling depending on load). My Sony CD player has a slighter but clearly audible constant hiss without beeping or rattling. Only the DAC1 has a very faint and homogenous background noise that reminds of a distant waterfall.


I've also experienced this problem, particularly with laptop DACs as they're poorly isolated and couple all sorts of noise into IEMs.  Rather then buying an expensive DAC, a simple resistive impedance adapter to knock down the sensitivity worked very well for me.  Some additional EQ is nice to compensate for the frequency change from the added resistance, but not strictly necessary to my ears. 

Quote from: rpp3po on
I don't think anybody is to blame here. First, to me the UM2 are by far the best IEMs money can buy. So I don't feel inclined to educate Westone's engineers that they went wrong.


I tend to blame manufactorers who go overboard with sensitivity and choose values that are unreasonable to drive with ordinary hardware.  They should add some resistance to the cable and then tune the frequency response of the driver to compensate.  But I think having people say they need $1000 DACs to drive them probably helps their sales, so of course they don't do this.

What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly?

Reply #45 –
Quote from: Mike Giacomelli on
The noise floor test in RMAA when coupled with a proper impedance load should give you that result.  Of course, for best results you should also adjust the volume to your desired listening level as well.


You are right. When you can conduct your own test, RMAA is certainly able to provide this information. I rarely see RMAA results on the net, though, from which alone I could conclude wether a device might be suitable for the UM2s. An amp with top rated SNR could still sound terrible with too sensible phones. It would be nice if it was a RMAA standard procedure to test at different output volume settings, in my opinion.

Quote from: Mike Giacomelli on
They should add some resistance to the cable and then tune the frequency response of the driver to compensate.


That would indeed be nice, if they were able to keep exactly that sound.

Quote from: Mike Giacomelli on
But I think having people say they need $1000 DACs to drive them probably helps their sales, so of course they don't do this.


I'm not sure about this one. Westone isn't that integrated into the audiophile scene. Large shares of their business are hearing aids and stage monitors. But for other well known brands this could be comprehensible.

What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly?

Reply #46 –
Quote from: HTS on
What kind of amp will be good for the 300ohm rated sennheiser headphones? Are those cheap fiio ones good enough?


When your playback device can drive them sufficiently loud at a volume setting of 75%, a dedicated headphone amp is very likely not going to improve your sound quality at all.

For most common output stages it is easier to drive a 300 ohm load than a 16 ohm load without distortion.

What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly?

Reply #47 –
Quote from: rpp3po on
Quote from: HTS on
What kind of amp will be good for the 300ohm rated sennheiser headphones? Are those cheap fiio ones good enough?


When your playback device can drive them sufficiently loud at a volume setting of 75%, a dedicated headphone amp is very likely not going to improve your sound quality at all.

For most common output stages it is easier to drive a 300 ohm load than a 16 ohm load without distortion.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=73339

Thanks.

What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly?

Reply #48 –
Quote from: HTS on
How does the Zune and regular sized ipods compare to the Shuffle?


The problem with the IPOD Shuffle (the older one at least) is that you won't get all that much volume out of it if you are using a high impedance headphone.  So you need a separate amp. I don't know about the Zune but the IPOD seems to have adequate volume for a lot of music.  Right now I'm listening to music (classical and rock) using a 250 DT880 connected directly a Nokia 5800 phone.  I hear no clipping or distortion and have no reason to believe a dedicated amp is going to give me any improvement in "sound quality."  However, with some music that is very quiet I feel the volume is not loud enough.  I wouldn't be surprised if the output section of the IPOD was louder than the Nokia.

Quote
How do I know if it's distorting or clipping? What would it sound like? Is it when you hear a very bloated bass instead of a sharp punch?


I'm with andy o on this one.  In my experience bloated bass is typically the result of a bass enhanced headphone or bass bloated music (e.g. some techno/dance and rap music).  Other than a bass boost circuit, the only other amp related bass boost I've seen was when I connected a low impedance bass boosted headphone (25 Denon series) to a high impedance output.  This result was a even more boosted bass!

I'm not sure how to explain clipping in a easy to understand manner.  I've found it sounds like an image of it.  Wikipedia Clipping.  On one particular song I have a bass note grows louder than suddenly sounds like it is cut off. andy o said it sounds like a pop and that seems right.  This is in the recording itself so it's not because of my hardware.

Quote
When your playback device can drive them sufficiently loud at a volume setting of 75%, a dedicated headphone amp is very likely not going to improve your sound quality at all.


I agree with rpp3po on this on.

I'll add on a little bit.  How much you need a dedicated amp (assuming you need an amp at all) is highly dependent on the music you listen to and your listening volume.  Some people listen to highly dynamic music at loud volumes.  You might hear clipping and distortion then.

As already stated, sometimes distortion and clipping are in the recording.  A good quality headphone may reveal these flaws with more ease than other headphones.

Don't use this as an excuse to buy an amp though.  Do you hear problems with you suspect are not from the particular sound of your headphone?

What does a secondary headphone amp do exactly?

Reply #49 –
Quote from: Labarum on
Quote from: maggior on
The headphone amp being a portable one (an XM5 from Practical Devices) is very small, so it and my SB3 fit nicely on my bedside table.


Maggior, I have been looking at an iBasso to connect a decent pair of phones to a Windows laptop.

I see your XM5 has an internal DAC (presumably USB fed), which would make it a comparable product to the iBasso. Are you in a position to compare them?

But, reading this tread an M-Audio Transit might do all I wand for a lot less money.


Hi Labarum -

I recognize your name from the squeezebox forums. 

I mispoke in my message - I have the XM3, not the XM5.  The XM3 doesn't have a DAC.    The XM5 DAC is indeed USB.

If you go over to here (http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f105/updated-2-22-review-13-usb-dac-amp-predator-pico-2-3move-d10-d3-d2-viper-boa-d1-lyrix-microamp-vivid-v1-nuforce-xm5-306883/) you can find a very detailed comarpison of the XM5, the iBasso, and others.

I also discovered something called the NuForce Icon Mobile today which is very reasonably priced.  It is included in the comparison as well.

Rich

Sorry!