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Topic: aoTuV pre-beta 5 released! (Read 115327 times) previous topic - next topic
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aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #75 –
May I ask you if tunings will affect the complete level range (-2 to 10) or if the changes will be limited to the lowest VBR settings?

The summer is coming, and I wonder if I'll perform a third row of ~180 kbps listening test. I'm not sure to perform a new one but with new versions of each competitors I'll maybe find extra-motivation
Wavpack Hybrid: one encoder for all scenarios
WavPack -c4.5hx6 (44100Hz & 48000Hz) ≈ 390 kbps + correction file
WavPack -c4hx6 (96000Hz) ≈ 768 kbps + correction file
WavPack -h (SACD & DSD) ≈ 2400 kbps at 2.8224 MHz

aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #76 –
Quote from: guruboolez on
May I ask you if tunings will affect the complete level range (-2 to 10) or if the changes will be limited to the lowest VBR settings?

The summer is coming, and I wonder if I'll perform a third row of ~180 kbps listening test. I'm not sure to perform a new one but with new versions of each competitors I'll maybe find extra-motivation

A next version is different in all bit rates and all sampling rates, but a difference at a low bit rate is big. It is the domain where I make efforts in this time. But pre-echo (not microattack) are different at a high bitrate.

aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #77 –
I promised to do some listening tests two months (and two thread pages) ago, but I have been too busy with other activities until now.

By default Vorbis uses 44.1 kHz at -q1. Common sense would say that at a small bitrate like 48 kbps a 32 kHz sample rate would leave more room for vital information. Lame uses 22.05 kHz and iTunes AAC 32 kHz at 48 kbps.

I thought that 32 kHz would have helped Vorbis too, but it seems that it makes things better only with a couple of the samples I tried now.

I tested ten samples from Gabriel's 48 kbps AAC test. I used Vorbis aoTuVb4.51 (oggenc 2.83 2006-04-26 from Rarewares) and b5 (2006-04-08) with the following settings:

Vorbis aoTuV b4.51  32 kHz source  "-q -0.55"
Vorbis aoTuV b4.51  32 kHz source  "-q -0.55 --advanced-encode-option lowpass_frequency=15"
Vorbis aoTuV b4.51  44.1 kHz source  "-q -1"
Vorbis aoTuV b5  44.1 kHz source  "-q -1"

I resampled the 32 kHz source files with foobar's SSRC (slow mode) before encoding. I used Koss PortaPro headphones and Terratec DMX 6fire 24/96 sound card.

The results



Despite the few differences I found, it seems that all contenders are tied. It would be interesting to test the new b5 at 32 kHz and 15 kHz lowpass.

ABC/HR

Code: [Select]
ABC/HR for Java, Version 0.5b, 09 June 2006
Testname: chanchanT Vorbis

Tester: Alex B

1R = E:\test\Vorbis 48\01\Vorbis32_-055 - 01 - chanchanT.wav
2R = E:\test\Vorbis 48\01\Vorbis32_-055_lp15 - 01 - chanchanT.wav
3R = E:\test\Vorbis 48\01\Vorbis44_-1 - 01 - chanchanT.wav
4L = E:\test\Vorbis 48\01\VorbisB5 - 01 - chanchanT.wav

---------------------------------------
General Comments: Trumpet is very bad, trumpet sound from the best to the worst: 3, 2/4, 1
---------------------------------------
1R File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\01\Vorbis32_-055 - 01 - chanchanT.wav
1R Rating: 2.0
1R Comment: 
---------------------------------------
2R File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\01\Vorbis32_-055_lp15 - 01 - chanchanT.wav
2R Rating: 2.1
2R Comment: 
---------------------------------------
3R File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\01\Vorbis44_-1 - 01 - chanchanT.wav
3R Rating: 2.2
3R Comment: 
---------------------------------------
4L File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\01\VorbisB5 - 01 - chanchanT.wav
4L Rating: 2.1
4L Comment: 
---------------------------------------

ABX Results:

________________________________________________________________________

ABC/HR for Java, Version 0.5b, 09 June 2006
Testname: fools Vorbis

Tester: Alex B

1R = E:\test\Vorbis 48\02\Vorbis32_-055_lp15 - 02 - fools.wav
2L = E:\test\Vorbis 48\02\Vorbis32_-055 - 02 - fools.wav
3R = E:\test\Vorbis 48\02\Vorbis44_-1 - 02 - fools.wav
4R = E:\test\Vorbis 48\02\VorbisB5 - 02 - fools.wav

---------------------------------------
General Comments: 
---------------------------------------
1R File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\02\Vorbis32_-055_lp15 - 02 - fools.wav
1R Rating: 3.2
1R Comment: Second worst class breaking sound at about 13 s
---------------------------------------
2L File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\02\Vorbis32_-055 - 02 - fools.wav
2L Rating: 3.0
2L Comment: Worst class breaking sound at about 13 s
---------------------------------------
3R File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\02\Vorbis44_-1 - 02 - fools.wav
3R Rating: 3.4
3R Comment: Second best class breaking sound at about 13 s
---------------------------------------
4R File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\02\VorbisB5 - 02 - fools.wav
4R Rating: 3.8
4R Comment: Best class breaking sound at about 13 s
---------------------------------------

ABX Results:

________________________________________________________________________

ABC/HR for Java, Version 0.5b, 09 June 2006
Testname: kraftwerk Vorbis

Tester: Alex B

1L = E:\test\Vorbis 48\03\Vorbis32_-055_lp15 - 03 - kraftwerk.wav
2R = E:\test\Vorbis 48\03\Vorbis32_-055 - 03 - kraftwerk.wav
3R = E:\test\Vorbis 48\03\Vorbis44_-1 - 03 - kraftwerk.wav
4L = E:\test\Vorbis 48\03\VorbisB5 - 03 - kraftwerk.wav

---------------------------------------
General Comments: Distorded, pronounced and strange highs. 3 & 4 have one extra artifact at about 22 s.
---------------------------------------
1L File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\03\Vorbis32_-055_lp15 - 03 - kraftwerk.wav
1L Rating: 1.6
1L Comment:
---------------------------------------
2R File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\03\Vorbis32_-055 - 03 - kraftwerk.wav
2R Rating: 1.6
2R Comment: 
---------------------------------------
3R File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\03\Vorbis44_-1 - 03 - kraftwerk.wav
3R Rating: 1.4
3R Comment: 
---------------------------------------
4L File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\03\VorbisB5 - 03 - kraftwerk.wav
4L Rating: 1.4
4L Comment: 
---------------------------------------

ABX Results:

________________________________________________________________________

ABC/HR for Java, Version 0.5b, 09 June 2006
Testname: Liszt_in_B Vorbis

Tester: Alex B

1R = E:\test\Vorbis 48\04\VorbisB5 - 04 - Liszt_in_B.wav
2L = E:\test\Vorbis 48\04\Vorbis44_-1 - 04 - Liszt_in_B.wav
3L = E:\test\Vorbis 48\04\Vorbis32_-055 - 04 - Liszt_in_B.wav
4R = E:\test\Vorbis 48\04\Vorbis32_-055_lp15 - 04 - Liszt_in_B.wav

---------------------------------------
General Comments: awful, 3 & 4 are slightly better
---------------------------------------
1R File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\04\VorbisB5 - 04 - Liszt_in_B.wav
1R Rating: 1.0
1R Comment: 
---------------------------------------
2L File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\04\Vorbis44_-1 - 04 - Liszt_in_B.wav
2L Rating: 1.0
2L Comment: 
---------------------------------------
3L File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\04\Vorbis32_-055 - 04 - Liszt_in_B.wav
3L Rating: 1.5
3L Comment: 
---------------------------------------
4R File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\04\Vorbis32_-055_lp15 - 04 - Liszt_in_B.wav
4R Rating: 1.5
4R Comment: 
---------------------------------------

ABX Results:

________________________________________________________________________

ABC/HR for Java, Version 0.5b, 07 June 2006
Testname: orin_ii Vorbis

Tester: Alex B

1R = E:\test\Vorbis 48\05\Vorbis44_-1 - 05 - orion_ii.wav
2R = E:\test\Vorbis 48\05\Vorbis32_-055_lp15 - 05 - orion_ii.wav
3R = E:\test\Vorbis 48\05\Vorbis32_-055 - 05 - orion_ii.wav
4L = E:\test\Vorbis 48\05\VorbisB5 - 05 - orion_ii.wav

---------------------------------------
General Comments: Bad bad bad
---------------------------------------
1R File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\05\Vorbis44_-1 - 05 - orion_ii.wav
1R Rating: 1.5
1R Comment: 
---------------------------------------
2R File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\05\Vorbis32_-055_lp15 - 05 - orion_ii.wav
2R Rating: 1.8
2R Comment: 
---------------------------------------
3R File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\05\Vorbis32_-055 - 05 - orion_ii.wav
3R Rating: 1.8
3R Comment: 
---------------------------------------
4L File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\05\VorbisB5 - 05 - orion_ii.wav
4L Rating: 1.7
4L Comment: 
---------------------------------------

ABX Results:

________________________________________________________________________

ABC/HR for Java, Version 0.5b, 07 June 2006
Testname: sandman Vorbis

Tester: Alex B

1R = E:\test\Vorbis 48\06\Vorbis44_-1 - 06 - sandman.wav
2L = E:\test\Vorbis 48\06\VorbisB5 - 06 - sandman.wav
3R = E:\test\Vorbis 48\06\Vorbis32_-055 - 06 - sandman.wav
4L = E:\test\Vorbis 48\06\Vorbis32_-055_lp15 - 06 - sandman.wav

---------------------------------------
General Comments: Surprisingly good
---------------------------------------
1R File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\06\Vorbis44_-1 - 06 - sandman.wav
1R Rating: 3.8
1R Comment: 
---------------------------------------
2L File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\06\VorbisB5 - 06 - sandman.wav
2L Rating: 3.6
2L Comment: 
---------------------------------------
3R File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\06\Vorbis32_-055 - 06 - sandman.wav
3R Rating: 3.4
3R Comment: 
---------------------------------------
4L File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\06\Vorbis32_-055_lp15 - 06 - sandman.wav
4L Rating: 3.8
4L Comment: 
---------------------------------------

ABX Results:

________________________________________________________________________

ABC/HR for Java, Version 0.5b, 07 June 2006
Testname: Stravinsky_Capriccio Vorbis

Tester: Alex B

1L = E:\test\Vorbis 48\07\Vorbis44_-1 - 07 - Stravinsky_Capriccio.wav
2L = E:\test\Vorbis 48\07\Vorbis32_-055 - 07 - Stravinsky_Capriccio.wav
3L = E:\test\Vorbis 48\07\VorbisB5 - 07 - Stravinsky_Capriccio.wav
4L = E:\test\Vorbis 48\07\Vorbis32_-055_lp15 - 07 - Stravinsky_Capriccio.wav

---------------------------------------
General Comments: 
---------------------------------------
1L File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\07\Vorbis44_-1 - 07 - Stravinsky_Capriccio.wav
1L Rating: 2.6
1L Comment: 
---------------------------------------
2L File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\07\Vorbis32_-055 - 07 - Stravinsky_Capriccio.wav
2L Rating: 2.6
2L Comment: 
---------------------------------------
3L File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\07\VorbisB5 - 07 - Stravinsky_Capriccio.wav
3L Rating: 2.6
3L Comment: 
---------------------------------------
4L File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\07\Vorbis32_-055_lp15 - 07 - Stravinsky_Capriccio.wav
4L Rating: 2.8
4L Comment: 
---------------------------------------

ABX Results:

________________________________________________________________________

ABC/HR for Java, Version 0.5b, 07 June 2006
Testname: Toms Diner Vorbis

Tester: Alex B

1R = E:\test\Vorbis 48\08\VorbisB5 - 08 - TomsDiner.wav
2R = E:\test\Vorbis 48\08\Vorbis32_-055 - 08 - TomsDiner.wav
3R = E:\test\Vorbis 48\08\Vorbis32_-055_lp15 - 08 - TomsDiner.wav
4L = E:\test\Vorbis 48\08\Vorbis44_-1 - 08 - TomsDiner.wav

---------------------------------------
General Comments:  Human voice seems to be easy for Vorbis. 
---------------------------------------
1R File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\08\VorbisB5 - 08 - TomsDiner.wav
1R Rating: 3.9
1R Comment: 
---------------------------------------
2R File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\08\Vorbis32_-055 - 08 - TomsDiner.wav
2R Rating: 3.6
2R Comment: 
---------------------------------------
3R File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\08\Vorbis32_-055_lp15 - 08 - TomsDiner.wav
3R Rating: 3.6
3R Comment: 
---------------------------------------
4L File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\08\Vorbis44_-1 - 08 - TomsDiner.wav
4L Rating: 4.0
4L Comment: 
---------------------------------------

ABX Results:

________________________________________________________________________

ABC/HR for Java, Version 0.5b, 07 June 2006
Testname: Twist & Shout Vorbis

Tester: Alex B

1L = E:\test\Vorbis 48\09\Vorbis32_-055_lp15 - 09 - twist_shout.wav
2R = E:\test\Vorbis 48\09\VorbisB5 - 09 - twist_shout.wav
3R = E:\test\Vorbis 48\09\Vorbis32_-055 - 09 - twist_shout.wav
4L = E:\test\Vorbis 48\09\Vorbis44_-1 - 09 - twist_shout.wav

---------------------------------------
General Comments: 
---------------------------------------
1L File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\09\Vorbis32_-055_lp15 - 09 - twist_shout.wav
1L Rating: 3.5
1L Comment: 
---------------------------------------
2R File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\09\VorbisB5 - 09 - twist_shout.wav
2R Rating: 3.5
2R Comment: 
---------------------------------------
3R File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\09\Vorbis32_-055 - 09 - twist_shout.wav
3R Rating: 3.5
3R Comment: 
---------------------------------------
4L File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\09\Vorbis44_-1 - 09 - twist_shout.wav
4L Rating: 3.3
4L Comment: 
---------------------------------------

ABX Results:

________________________________________________________________________

ABC/HR for Java, Version 0.5b, 07 June 2006
Testname: waiting Vorbis

Tester: Alex B

1L = E:\test\Vorbis 48\10\Vorbis32_-055_lp15 - 10 - waiting.wav
2L = E:\test\Vorbis 48\10\Vorbis32_-055 - 10 - waiting.wav
3L = E:\test\Vorbis 48\10\Vorbis44_-1 - 10 - waiting.wav
4L = E:\test\Vorbis 48\10\VorbisB5 - 10 - waiting.wav

---------------------------------------
General Comments:
---------------------------------------
1L File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\10\Vorbis32_-055_lp15 - 10 - waiting.wav
1L Rating: 3.8
1L Comment: 
---------------------------------------
2L File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\10\Vorbis32_-055 - 10 - waiting.wav
2L Rating: 3.2
2L Comment: 
---------------------------------------
3L File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\10\Vorbis44_-1 - 10 - waiting.wav
3L Rating: 3.8
3L Comment: 
---------------------------------------
4L File: E:\test\Vorbis 48\10\VorbisB5 - 10 - waiting.wav
4L Rating: 3.5
4L Comment: 
---------------------------------------

ABX Results:

The samples are available here: http://www.mp3-tech.org/tests/aac_48/samples/

I analyzed the bitrates with MrQuestionMan. The html reports are available here: Vorbis48kbps_bitrates.rar


Edit: fixed a few typos

aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #78 –
Quote
The average bitrate was exactly 48 kHz.

I doubt that

Edit: Argh, sorry. You wrote that on March, 25th. I didn't pay attention. Damn weather

aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #79 –
Thanks! I fixed the typo now (...better than never).


Edit: damn, a typo again 

aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #80 –
Thanks, Alex B.

A formal version is the schedule of near inside. 

aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #81 –
Quote from: Aoyumi on
I repeat a test and tuning mainly now. I want to release it by the end of this month.
Jul 1 2006 now

aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #82 –
Yeah, it'd be nice to have an official release soon.  Regardless, I understand how things can be with other obligations when you're working on a time-consuming project that doesn't pay the bills.

aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #83 –
Let the man finish it peacfully. QA and integral part of any development and it takes time. He makes high quality work since regressions are almost unheard of. To stay that way we must not hurry him.

Take your time Aoyumi

Now that I am writing these lines I realized that I do not even know his/her gender. Can anyone help?

Triza

aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #84 –
The work list still remains. Therefore, I postponed the release.  Sorry.

Quote
Now that I am writing these lines I realized that I do not even know his/her gender. Can anyone help?

I am not called her. 

aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #85 –
Quote
I am not called her.


  there are only a few females on this forum that I am aware.
budding I.T professional

aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #86 –
There's few reasons for them to be here if their bf's / fiance's are active.

We (the male gender, I mean) have enslaved ourselves to them...

aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #87 –
Aoyumi, I just wanted to say a big Thank You for all your work on improving ogg.
You've done a great job so far.
 

aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #88 –
Yeah, I second that- I'm a major Ogg Vorbis fan, and I really owe a lot to you- I can enable my website listeners to hear recordings as I've created them, not as some different-sounding MP3 file.

Question: Will there be much difference at the higher bitrates? It'd be really nice if someone made an effort with OGG at higher bitrates, instead of focusing at q1 (who uses q1?), for example.

Regards,
- Spike

aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #89 –
Quote from: Spikey on
Question: Will there be much difference at the higher bitrates? It'd be really nice if someone made an effort with OGG at higher bitrates, instead of focusing at q1 (who uses q1?), for example.

I think the standard answer is that Vorbis is somewhere between excellent and transparent for most people at higher bitrates, so those rates are not really interesting and fruitful cases to optimize.  (FYI I use aotuv-q0 - or even lower - for audio intended for casual downloaders.)

aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #90 –
Quote from: Spikey on
who uses q1
Not me, too high of bitrate for my taste 

I think the negative qualitly settings are where the most improvement is needed.. I hope to eventually see -q -3 and take the bitrate even lower.

Aoyumi, you rule!  Keep up the great work
Vorbis-q0-lowpass99
lame3.93.1-q5-V9-k-nspsytune

aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #91 –
Quote
(who uses q1?)

Chalk up another one who uses q1 for his Rockboxed Nano and subsequently for his JVC head unit with USB device plus Vorbis support.

aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #92 –
Hehe. I used to use -q 0 for my iPaq 2210, now -q 0.5 (52 kbps nominal bitrate)

For my PC, now that is different; ranges from -q 1 to -q 4. Usually I can ABX less than -q 1 on the PC.

These are all usable thanks to you, Aoyumi. Hats off to you!

aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #93 –
For lossy I started with Lame and now I use Vorbis -q2.
This decision was made because both my protable (Karma) and PC supports vorbis and as my collection grew I was forced to bring down the bitrate (portable is limited to 20GB).

This is my (ongoing) saga:
LAME --preset standard (with 3.90.3 back in the ol' days)
LAME --preset fast standard
LAME --preset fast medium
Vorbis -q4 (lancer)
Vorbis -q2 (lancer)

q2 gives me 96kbps on average and I have to say I cannot tell the difference to the original. In the future I intend to bring the bitrate lower (64kbps) as the music collection grows. Of coarse I keep a lossless copy of everything so I can switch back and forth whenever needed.

aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #94 –
For me, ogg Vorbis q1 sounds great, and that's kind of my standard.  Ogg has many great advantages, the main one being that it's completely free, but it is pretty clear to me that AAC is technically superior, and can offer much better quality at extremely low bitrates.  I don't think that Ogg can compete against AAC at under 50 kb/s.  The problem is that AAC can be something of a pain to get working correctly, I've found, but thanks to Nero, now anyone can encode to it easily, and for free.

Nonetheless, I really appreciate Aoyumi's work.  I think that someday perhaps a new version of Ogg Vorbis or something in it's image will even exceed the capabilities of AAC, so it's important to keep developing it.  The world needs free codecs like Ogg Vorbis!

aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #95 –
Quote
q2 gives me 96kbps on average and I have to say I cannot tell the difference to the original. In the future I intend to bring the bitrate lower (64kbps) as the music collection grows. Of course I keep a lossless copy of everything so I can switch back and forth whenever needed


That's what I do for the most part. I have a large number of FLAC files on my machine encode to Vorbis be it whatever the purpose is when I need to 

Quote
Nonetheless, I really appreciate Aoyumi's work. I think that someday perhaps a new version of Off Vorbis or something in it's image will even exceed the capabilities of AAC, so it's important to keep developing it.


Perhaps if you can get around all of the patents and come up with some innovative ideas. I have seen a few of those already.
budding I.T professional

aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #96 –
I don't expect that I can come up with such ideas... maybe a company I start in the distant future could have some input into such a codec though

aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #97 –
Quote
I don't expect that I can come up with such ideas... maybe a company I start in the distant future could have some input into such a codec though


Really the only things that need to be done with Vorbis right now are:

- re-writing the encoder to support peeling, a feature that can be exploited due it's VQ backend
- adding 5.1 and ambisonics channel coupling for most modes below -q 6
- annally tuning lower -q modes in relation to masking and noise normalization

other then that the appropriate thing to do for further developement would be to work on some new type of filterbank scheme that's backwards compatible.
budding I.T professional

aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #98 –
I don't know why it doesn't work... (foobar 0.9 b13)


Error writing to file (Generic Error) : file://H:\_zik\wv\1971.The Brothers & Sisters (wv)\1971.Dylan's Gospel.The Brothers & Sisters (ogg)\05. All Along the Watchtower.ogg

aoTuV pre-beta 5 released!

Reply #99 –
For one thing, you could probably stand to update your foobar... 0.9.2 is final now.