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Topic: Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q (Read 18018 times) previous topic - next topic
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Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Hello title case experts,

I have been tagging my music files in accordance with the title case recommended by The Chicago Manual of Style (http://www.writersblock.ca/tips/monthtip/tipmar98.htm), which says that you need to capitalize all the prepositions unless it is longer than or equal to 5-char length or is the first or last word of the title.

Now, as I understand, the song title "Once Upon A Time" should be "Once upon a Time", since "upon" is a preposition, but when I googled for this phrase, lots of sites write it as "Once Upon a Time".  Which is correct?

Also, in the same sense, should I capitalize "But" in "Age Ain't Nothing But a Number"?

Thank you!

Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Reply #1 –
Should you use a small letter for upon? If you choose to stick with that standard, then yes. That said, most other sources I have seen capitalise four-letter words (that is, only use small letters for three-letter or shorter words [prepositions, conjunctions, articles, etc.]). It depends Upon who you want to side with, really!

As for but, it is a conjunction; so yes, it should begin with a small letter (in either case event).

Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Reply #2 –
That guide is a guide for authors.  In the case of music files the authors are the artists who have already made their decisions on capitalisation, spelling, grammar etc, which you can see by reading the CD tray/booklet/disc etc.  Your sole task is put it in the tag title field, as is and without error.

Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Reply #3 –
Really? That sounds quite nice until one realises that a lot of releases go for a dramatic type of graphic design in which ALL letters are capitalised. What then? Put up with these rather ugly titles in your library? Attempt to divine what preferences the artist might have for conjunctions et al.?

A uniform standard starts to look more appealing, and logical, when one considers things like this. For a given user/library, that is: instead of having to rigidly follow some institution, why not think about what scheme you prefer?


(Ah, the bad old days when I used to begin all words in my titles with a capital. )

Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Reply #4 –
Yes, really.  The title of an artwork, in any medium, is a creative choice.Some artists use inconsistent schemes, misspellings, ungrammatical capitalisations, superfluous or missing diacritical marks and so on.  Those choices have been good enough for the artist, their representatives, agents, manufacturers, fans, and reviewers.  And then when I rip the CD I somehow know better?  Their artistic and creative choice is secondary to some idea of a better clerical practice?  I'd no more decide I knew better than the author about a song title than put a James Joyce novel through a word processor's grammar checker.

Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Reply #5 –
Rather spurious analogy, there!

The graphic design choices used to present a given title in one location, which are highly context-dependent, do not eternally mandate particular types of formatting for it, and may or may not even be the doing of the artist anyway. An artist probably thinks of his or her song title in terms of the words that make it up, rather than of a conscious choice to always refer to it in all-caps. Quite likely, if they were to write one such title without having to fit a particular scheme of graphic design, which they may or may not have created (or cared about, really), they would not necessarily follow whichever scheme appeared on the back cover. But whatever, I guess.

Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Reply #6 –
I'm not sure what is supposed to be spurious about drawing an analogy between a song title and the title of any other work, or any element of a creative work.  Probably there are artists in all kinds of fields who don't care what title their work is given, or how it's presented, but it's clear that most make a conscious effort to create a title, and even to manipulate language and typography and graphic design to suit their purpose.

If you're second guessing how an artist is thinking, or assuming their decisions are sub or semi conscious then that is a very uncertain and tortuous road to follow, especially when you have in hard copy the actual result of their creative process.

Occam's Razor

Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Reply #7 –
IMO it's a personal style choice how my music library is tagged - after all, it's me that has to look at it. On that basis I capitalise every word regardless of length, because I think it looks better, and it's far easier to automate in MP3Tag, Foobar etc.

For what it's worth I agree with db1989 about ignoring the capitalisation as presented on the CD cover, because I also suspect that in most cases it's done for visual effect rather than artistic intent - but as I've already decided on my own personal scheme it doesn't matter, and I don't need to agonise over it!

Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Reply #8 –
@sacki, the question is, who are you doing the titles for? (As a measure of my capacity to be pedantic, some people would be all whom*, but in colloquial English other rules trump the concept of case, and I take colloquial to be the appropriate register for online forums.)

Chicago Style rules are the rules used by Chicago University Press, and you use them if you're going to publish with Chicago UP, or another house that has adopted that set of conventions (a very sensible one, BTW). OTOH, if you were publishing with Oxford UP you would use the magnificent Hart's Rules and the Oxford Writers' Dictionary, but you should know that some of their conventions are different from the prevalent choices in British usage (notable -ise forms, which Oxford spells -ize). Practice in respected, careful, publishing houses varies, which is a major PITA when it comes to preparing manuscripts for publication.

I don't know of similar codifications for music titles; sometimes the labels put out online data for tagging, and you could take that as a proxy for the artist['s/s'] decision, but there's no guarantee it's been done carefully. So with the text on the physical format; that might be the decision of the artist(s), but it might be the decision of a number of other people (including a harassed office worker at the last minute); I don't know of any evidence on how many artists do in fact take these issues seriously, but it's clear that at least with the major labels, the musicians don't have final control over a lot of stuff. But you would obviously follow the spelling of the original release (Fergie's album is The Dutchess), so you might follow original release for accidentals, too. But if the title appears as all caps, as they do sometimes, you'll end up with an untidy display in your playlists, with some songs shouting their titles.

Further considerations are whether or not, with your devices/players, capitalisation affects alphabetic ordering; what language is the title, and what are the capitalisation conventions for that language? (French is very different from English, and I don't know what happens in German, where nouns are capitalised anyway.)

tl;dr: this is one of those areas where there is no right or wrong, but a variety of acceptable conventions. You could sensibly do what you think looks nice, or follow the practice of the publishers of the particular piece. I just capitalise every word in a title, because that seems to be the most common practice.

Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Ouroboros on
...because I also suspect that in most cases it's done for visual effect rather than artistic intent


There's not really a need for suspicion when you have the benefit of plain text.  Again Occam's razor is very keen.

With classical and pre-classical music it's unusual to find a preference for effect over accuracy, in fact I can't immediately think of any such CD I own where this is the case.  And if an artist does favour effect then who am I to disagree?  Much more typical is adherence to the source description, which with earlier works might be a book of songs, a codex, a compendium, or something similar.  This usually means using spellings, capitalisation, dialect etc. from an era before standardised spelling. Failing that there is always convention.  In modern music I'm also conscious that I'm in no position to second guess the artists when I don't know their language; not everybody writes or sings in modern British or American English!  So I'll tend to believe that by the time a song has travelled author>performer>manager>label>production then I'm not being too stupid to accept that they actually intended to write what they wrote, how they wrote it, even if I don't know why.  If Jimi Hendrix says his song is Voodoo Chile, not Voodoo Child then that's fine with me.  In my book  k.d. lang is k.d. lang, not K. D. Lang, and The famous album by The Doors is L.A.WOMAN, not L.A. Woman.  Actually if the language is unfamiliar (foreign or archaic) then "correcting" the title can lead to crass errors such as changing emphasis and meaning.

Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Reply #10 –
Takla, regarding the spelling of the title I find the concept of original artist's intent vague. Who is the original artist anyway? The graphic artist? The person who declared that the song's title should be X? The performer? Did any of them talk to one-another about non-standard spelling i.e. do you see the actual original intent on the cover? How would you know?

Assuming there is actual intent in the capitalization, spelling, etc. is the intent worth preserving? Compare: "this song makes me feel so small so all the letters should be small" to "T.H.I.S.L.O.O.K.S.B.A.D.A.S.S. and is difficult to remember so the DJ won't find it when searching his database and will play a different song, great idea, let's use that"

Wouldn't we also need to preserve the font and layout?

What about different spelling on different releases? Would you replace the spelling used on the "Top Hits" compilation with the one from the album, assuming that this was closer to the original intent?

If the concept is so vague, does it make sense to adhere to it or should one follow a more generalized standard?

Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Reply #11 –
Quote from: Takla on
The famous album by The Doors is L.A.WOMAN, not L.A. Woman.

Except that the track is L.A. Woman (see the back cover of the CD, here). Hence I would conclude that the title on the front of the album/CD is in all upper case for visual effect, not because The Doors intended either the album or the track to be called L.A. WOMAN, and I would, like most people I believe, title the album L.A. Woman. I would also agree that Occam's Razor is indeed very keen, and suggest that your argument is far more convoluted than mine......

k.d. lang is different, because across many media she has consistenly used that lower case presentation, and hence I also use that style in my tagging. Again, Occam's Razor leads to a coherent result.

Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Reply #12 –
Compilations and other 3rd party offerings (bootlegs, issues from places where the copyright may be disputed etc.), where typos and odd presentations are hardly uncommon, are an obvious exception.  It didn't seem worth mentioning....

I don't see what is so puzzling or objectionable about accepting that the song titles and presentation chosen by the artists and their collaborators were actually intended to appear as they do indeed appear.  Unless there is some obvious typo or mistake then it's nothing more than a gross conceit to presume that one knows better.

Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Reply #13 –
Quote from: Ouroboros on
Except that the track is L.A. Woman (see the back cover of the CD, here). Hence I would conclude ..... I believe.


No need to believe, presume, conclude, assume....simply read.

I've owned the album on vinyl, cassette, CD, and DVD-Audio.  I no longer own the LP or the cassette but I have the CD and DVD-A right here and it's called L.A.WOMAN.  The song is sometimes listed identically, sometimes not, but the album is L.A.WOMAN.  If a million or a billion people prefer to believe it has some other name, that is up to them.

Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Reply #14 –
Quote from: Takla on
I don't see what is so puzzling or objectionable about accepting that the song titles and presentation chosen by the artists and their collaborators were actually intended to appear as they do indeed appear.  Unless there is some obvious typo or mistake then it's nothing more than a gross conceit to presume that one knows better.
You've obviously never worked with "creative" people. I have. They will pick a font that's all upper case because they think it looks good, or because the aspect ratio looks good, or conveys some subliminal message in the context of the layout of the brochure / manual / section heading / CD cover, not because they intend that the title should actually be thought of as being in upper case. They just think it looks good. L.A. WOMAN is L.A. Woman as typed on a Telex machine, nothing more and nothing less. The title is still L.A. Woman, as the back cover makes abundantly clear.

Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Reply #15 –
Quote from: Ouroboros on
You've obviously never worked with "creative" people.


In fact I have, and I've been one too    And if the author of a work wants to make a creative choice about their work they can do so.  It's their work, their creation, their privilege.  They don't need your approval or mine. If The Doors decide they want their album to appear as "L.A.WOMAN" then who on earth are you to say that you disapprove, or don't agree.  It's a done deal.  They decided, they published, and that is what it's called.  The idea of people getting sniffy about it because they have some notion that it's the same output as would be obtained from a telex, or it doesn't look neat and tidy in their filing system is laughable.

I'm impressed that people one might presume to take great care with error free audio extraction think nothing of arbitrarily changing the names of performances and even albums.  Fantastic.

I have an album with a track by Ursula 1000, entitled "The Girl From N.O.W.H.E.R.E."  Should I change it to "Ursula one thousand - The girl from nowhere"????  Did the performer choose that format by mistake?  Is my snobbery about capitalisation and the appropriate use of numbering in text more important than the choices the artist made?  When Shuggie Otis sings "Aht Uh Mi Hed" should it in fact be "corrected to "Out of my head"?  Are you going to tell him, or shall I?  What the hell are people going to do about the so called "Guns N' Roses"?  That grammar is simply intolerable!  Pass the smelling salts!

Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Takla on
I have an album with a track by Ursula 1000, entitled "The Girl From N.O.W.H.E.R.E."  Should I change it to "Ursula one thousand - The girl from nowhere"????
No, because the band is always referred to as Ursula 1000, and the track always referred to as "The Girl From N.O.W.H.E.R.E." - it isn't an isolated piece of stylism for the purpose of visual effect, whereas L.A. Woman on the front cover of the album is just that.

The "believe" in your quote of my previous post wasn't referring to a belief about the capitalisation as your quotation implied, but a belief that most people see it as I do. I would also observe that you seem to be implying that my conclusion (title case but with stylised presentation on the front cover) is somehow less valid than your conclusion (deliberately upper case, but the back cover was misprinted), and that Occam's Razor supports your view.......

Anyway, let's leave the last word to The Doors themselves. The official website (http://thedoors.com/) has an advertisement for the "40th ANNIVERSARY of L.A. WOMAN". (Note in passing the space between the . and WOMAN, different from the album cover, so we already have a deviation from your pure interpretation). Follow the link and you end up here at The Doors official store, where the text repeatedly calls the album L.A. Woman, in title case. Q.E.D., from the horse's mouth - or as close as we will probably get.

Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Reply #17 –
I read your reply.  As the author you caused the imprint of various letters, numbers, and punctuation.  I immediately understood that this had been performed in an impeded state of mind.  Luckily I was able to interpret it correctly and work around the deficiencies in your sub/semi/un conscious implementation and understand the actual intent: your true intent was to state "Takla, you are completely correct."  Finally I begin come around to your point of view.

Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Reply #18 –
I follow these guidelines (well, try to at least: English isn't my primary language).

Artist intent is also taken into consideration.

Alessandro

Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Reply #19 –
Quote
If Jimi Hendrix says his song is Voodoo Chile, not Voodoo Child then that's fine with me. In my book k.d. lang is k.d. lang, not K. D. Lang
Quote
I have an album with a track by Ursula 1000, entitled "The Girl From N.O.W.H.E.R.E." Should I change it to "Ursula one thousand - The girl from nowhere"???? Did the performer choose that format by mistake? Is my snobbery about capitalisation and the appropriate use of numbering in text more important than the choices the artist made? When Shuggie Otis sings "Aht Uh Mi Hed" should it in fact be "corrected to "Out of my head"? Are you going to tell him, or shall I? What the hell are people going to do about the so called "Guns N' Roses"?
Irrelevant examples of intentional departure from standard presentation that have precisely nothing to do with title case.

Quote
The famous album by The Doors is L.A.WOMAN, not L.A. Woman.
More assertions that graphic design necessarily equals artistic intent; or that the artists were involved in / cared that much about the presentation of their release, ever thought about title case, etc.

And now we can add to the list comparisons to textual interference and Orwellian revisionism . . . This is a good discussion!

Unless you can find anyone else who shares your unconventional stance, which quite frankly seems more like trolling, you might want to save your energy. Chill out! Relax with a bit of Discovery by ELECTRIC LIGHT ORCHESTRA, POWER WINDOWS by R U S H, Le Onde by LUDOVICO EINAUDI, or ReunionTour by TheWeakerthans.

Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Reply #20 –
Quote from: Takla on
Compilations and other 3rd party offerings (bootlegs, issues from places where the copyright may be disputed etc.), where typos and odd presentations are hardly uncommon, are an obvious exception.  It didn't seem worth mentioning....

I'm not talking about typos or copyright infringement. I'm talking about a deliberate decision on part of a compilation's cover designer to choose a certain form of presentation (e.g. all caps) for all titles. Wouldn't you like to preserve this as part of the creative work that is this particular compilation? Apparently not. I wouldn't either but for different reasons it seems.

What about preserving the font? The band Eluveitie uses a font on most (if not all) of their albums which mixes lower and upper case characters. This is something which I can not reproduce in my music player or Windows Explorer on a per-album basis, so I choose to apply a standard font and some general capitalization rules.

I think this shows that when a work of music is presented in a different context (such as a compilation or a music library on a computer or DAP) it is reasonable/necessary to re-evaluate certain things like capitalization and font to achieve a more consistent and aesthetically pleasing display. This doesn't mean that "a-ha" needs to become "A-Ha" etc. But Lady Gaga's "Poker Face" will be just that and not "POKER FACE" like on the album or "POKER F<SpadeSymbol>CE" like on the single cover.

Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Takla on
..... your true intent was to state "Takla, you are completely correct."  Finally I begin come around to your point of view.
No. My true intent was to state "Takla, you are completely wrong" - but I was being polite by presenting the evidence from the artist in question so that you could reach that realisation yourself.

Actually, overnight I realised that I missed the most obvious example to prove my point and disprove yours. The cover of "L.A. Woman" has the artist as "DOORS", whereas everywhere else I can find or remember they are called "The Doors". Surely you aren't suggesting that they changed their name for this one album? I also note that, for example, on "Strange Days" they are called "THE doors" on the back, in a highly stylised font. Again, I would assert that this is done for visual effect, not because they actually wanted to be known as "THE doors".

Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Reply #22 –
The only thing I'm suggesting is that the artists know what they are doing.  Doing something "for effect" doesn't invalidate the choice.  Creative people are not imbeciles requiring spurious "improvements" and "corrections" by people who merely purchase the finished work.

Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Reply #23 –
On the other hand, I'm agreeing that some artists know what they are doing with regard to the presentation of their names and the names of their works (your example of k.d. lang is an excellent one), but many don't care in the way you imply that they do, and instead rely on others to do the graphic design and typesetting for their output. It is these graphic designers who decide to use "DOORS" or "THE doors" or "The Doors" on the album covers, and they do so purely for visual effect, not because that was the artist's original intent, or because it is the correct way to represent the artist's name (or the name of their work) in perpetuity.

Anyway, have a Happy New Year.

Title Case for Song Names - Should I Capitalize "upon" in &q

Reply #24 –
Quote from: Gecko on
What about preserving the font?


What about preserving the font colour?
What about preserving the artist's breakfast?

This is a discussion on case.

Quote from: Takla on
The only thing I'm suggesting is that the artists know what they are doing.


Replace "the artists know" with "some artists have control over" and I think we can all agree.

While I'm a huge fan of Artistic Intent, I feel you have chosen to ignore the role of The Marketing Department and a search for the preponderance of the evidence.  One album cover does not a preponderance make!


Quote from: Ouroboros on
I'm agreeing that some artists know what they are doing with regard to the presentation of their names and the names of their works (your example of k.d. lang is an excellent one), but many don't care in the way you imply that they do, and instead rely on others to do the graphic design and typesetting for their output. It is these graphic designers who decide to use "DOORS" or "THE doors" or "The Doors" on the album covers, and they do so purely for visual effect, not because that was the artist's original intent, or because it is the correct way to represent the artist's name (or the name of their work) in perpetuity.


I agree with this 100%.  The idea that Brittney Spears exercised intentional control over track listing presentation is just as absurd as the idea that Nurse With Wound didn't.
Creature of habit.