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Topic: how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail) (Read 24608 times) previous topic - next topic
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how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail)

Hi guys,

I am a newbie to lossless but I am in a situation where I have to make an exact clone of an audio cd. By exact, I mean 100% identical to the original cd. I did some research and lossless rip format of flac, wav or wv and program like EAC are only near perfect (like 97-99.9% accuracy) of the cd that I need to clone. I am wondering if the solution is cloning the disk to an disk image files. I read on wikipedia on the file format .iso, and it turned out that iso's drawback is that:

"ISO images are not able to store and recreate CD-Audio discs, due to the fact that CD-Audio discs do not use a computer file system. CD-Audio discs are formatted in tracks, and the track numbers, index points and CD time code are encoded into the lead-in of the CD-Audio disc, and these reference points are found throughout the CD-Audio sub-channel.

So can anyone tell me what I should do to create this 100% clone copy? What file format to use, what software to make the clone? And will there be any degradation of the quality (detail) when I write it to another disk?

Thanks,



how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail)

Reply #2
Take a look at the FAQ (top right of your screen).  Its got lots of info:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....7516#entry74071

I don't see where the FAQ addresses this particular problem, but it has been discussed here so perhaps a search might turn up something.

May I ask, why is it necessary that this be an exact clone of the original?

how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail)

Reply #3
Quote
By exact, I mean 100% identical to the original cd. I did some research and lossless rip format of flac, wav or wv and program like EAC are only near perfect (like 97-99.9% accuracy) of the cd that I need to clone.
In terms of audio quality, no. Properly ripped and losslessly encoded files preserve the source audio precisely.

You’re probably talking about subchannel data and other stuff, which can be quite safely discarded and reconstructed by the burner, doesn’t really matter, and in any case can’t be read repeatably by many drives (in my experience).
For a time, I wondered about that issue, too; then I realised it wasn’t worth it.

how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail)

Reply #4
Hey guys,
thanks for your response. I've been going through all my searches on this forum related to cloning a cd exactly as the original. So far, no real answer here.

The audio cd I need to copy has only 1 track. The reason I need to make an exact copy of this disc is that it's a scientific project of bat's voice and frequency. I need to analyze some stuff in it that needs a precise source of audio.The problem is that there's only 1 in the library so I need to return the cd soon for others' use.

It is described on the case of the disk that it can be used on PC CD reader. This means that my laptop CD reader probably doesn't affect the audio quality and precision. So I was hoping that there's a software that can be used to capture 100% of whatever the laptop can read from this audio cd

how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail)

Reply #5
to describe the source I need to copy more specific, there is only one track on the cd. There will be many layers of sound here, some are clear and some are very subtle. The analysis needs all these layers to remain accurate because I need to come out with a formula from the analysis of these layers.

So the thing here is to copy all these layers 100% as they are. I am not sure here, is flac or cue/bin the way to go here?

how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail)

Reply #6
to describe the source I need to copy more specific, there is only one track on the cd. There will be many layers of sound here, some are clear and some are very subtle. The analysis needs all these layers to remain accurate because I need to come out with a formula from the analysis of these layers.

So the thing here is to copy all these layers 100% as they are. I am not sure here, is flac or cue/bin the way to go here?


If it's a CD there are no 'layers of sound' , there is potential content from 0-20kHz with a 16bit per sample depth (which can encompass audio with a dynamic range of 96dB, or more if certain 'tricks' are used).  If there's recorded content in those ranges, it's on there ,and unless the disc is damaged, any decent ripping software can copy it perfectly for all practical purposes.

how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail)

Reply #7
It's great to know that I can copy it.

By 'layers of sound', I mean a lot of sounds present at the same time (just a lot of bats here). So is it possible to clone all though sounds again  100% of their details and quality?

how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail)

Reply #8
If you need to analyze AUDIO, you WILL get a 100% AUDIO copy using EAC and FLAC.
The rest of the data is NOT audio, and hence (if are concerned with AUDIO) just garbage.

You could use cdrdao or dd to make a full copy of the CD but I fail to see how that would be an advantage to your case.

how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail)

Reply #9
Using EAC as a software and FLAC or WAV (raw audio without any compression) as a format is recommended. I'm curious though, can a CD record frequencies like above 100kHz, which bats produces during echolocation? Those sounds might not be audible but important in his analysis.
sin(α) = v sound/v object = Mach No.

how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail)

Reply #10
I'm curious though, can a CD record frequencies like above 100kHz

Curious enough to investigate? Try the wiki: CD Spec

Quote
A continuous signal (analog signal) can be properly sampled, only if it does not contain frequency components above one-half of the sampling rate. This means that with cd-audio's 44.1kHz sampling rate, the maximum frequency that can be represented properly is 22.05kHz.

Source: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Nyquist_rate

C.
PC = TAK + LossyWAV  ::  Portable = Opus (130)

how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail)

Reply #11
Quote
A continuous signal (analog signal) can be properly sampled, only if it does not contain frequency components above one-half of the sampling rate. This means that with cd-audio's 44.1kHz sampling rate, the maximum frequency that can be represented properly is 22.05kHz.


That means about 77.95kHz of bat sounds are not being reproduced.
sin(α) = v sound/v object = Mach No.

how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail)

Reply #12
Quote
That means about 77.95kHz of bat sounds are not being reproduced.
Further research might reveal that bat echolocation calls can be captured using handheld devices that transform bat calls into the range of human hearing and CD audio by heterodyne modulation (against a carrier wave) or frequency division (typically by a factor of 10).

And this early point about “layers of sound” bears repeating:
Properly ripped and losslessly encoded files preserve the source audio precisely.
It doesn’t matter what that source audio is!

how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail)

Reply #13
Thanks for the info, dv1989. I just hope they used that method in recording those bat sounds.
sin(α) = v sound/v object = Mach No.

how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail)

Reply #14
wow! this is like the greatest forum I've discovered this year with such active and enthusiastic discussion. Thanks so much you guys!

On the source disc that I have to use in this project, the frequencies and several other sounds were modified (scientific stuff) so that it's possible to human to hear

So just to confirm with you guys, I should use flac or wav, rip software is exact audio copy right? Or should I go get a CD image cloner? CD image cloners like CDClone or Cdrdao often advertise themselves to be able to create 1:1 copy of audio track which is again, confusing me...

how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail)

Reply #15
As said, EAC and FLAC/WAV would be enough. As simple as that
sin(α) = v sound/v object = Mach No.

how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail)

Reply #16
So just to confirm with you guys, I should use flac or wav, rip software is exact audio copy right? Or should I go get a CD image cloner? CD image cloners like CDClone or Cdrdao often advertise themselves to be able to create 1:1 copy of audio track which is again, confusing me...
In order: yes, no, it’s a different way of doing the same thing.

Out of interest, since I did a mini-project on bats last year: what are you examining, and (to keep it relevant to this forum!) what equipment are you using?

how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail)

Reply #17
denda82,

Don't be fooled by the word "clone".  I have yet to see any self-described "cloning" software that calibrates a drive's read and write offsets resulting in a 1:1 copy; NOT(!) that you need to perform offset calibration in order to achieve what you're trying to achieve.

how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail)

Reply #18
thanks guys,

the project I am working on is determining the relationship between the bat's sound and their action. Finding out any relevant structure that might exist for an individual bat and between them and others. Then later, find any possible relevance and application usable

Seems like I got the answer I need from you guys' reply,

so I should follow this guide right? http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=EAC_and_FLAC

do I need to modify any setting to get the best quality copy? I am going to use my laptop's cd drive to copy (Asus U43F).

EAC's test on my CD drive is:

HL-DT-STDVDRAM GU10N

ACCURATE STREAM:        YES
AUDIO CACHE:                  NO
CS ERROR INFORMATION: YES

and after the rip, what should I do with EAC and foobar 2000 to check the quality of the rip?

how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail)

Reply #19
You can configure flac any way you want; lossless is lossless.

Regarding being sure you have an accurate rip and taking into account that the disc you'll be ripping, in all likelihood, will not be in the AccurateRip database, check your rip against that performed using a second drive that is not by Hitachi-LG.  In order to do so you likely will need to calibrate them to a reference offset (just run EAC and feed discs to configure AccurateRip as prompted).

Because a couple of models of HL-DT drives have been reported as offsetting data by two bytes, I would be suspect.  Having data offset by two bytes is far different than the typical way in which drives offset data (by multiples of four bytes) and unlike the typical way, it is not a good thing.  Am I paranoid?  Perhaps, but I would not overlook the possibility here.

how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail)

Reply #20
Not that an infinitesimal offset will affect the audio or your ability to analyse it at all. And if EAC tells you it got 100% quality, why rip a second time? I assume your source CD is in fair condition, so it should rip with ease.

how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail)

Reply #21
Two-byte offsets can be consistent and are linked to specific makes and models of drives.  The can absolutely have an effect on sound quality.

how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail)

Reply #22
So how about this one, Greynol?

PIONEER DVD-RW  DVR-K16M
ACCURATE STREAM: YES
AUDIO CACHE: YES
C2 ERROR INFORMATION: NO

Is it better?

how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail)

Reply #23
Make sure AccurateRip has configured both drives.

Assuming they have different read offsets then they are likely going to be more helpful in identifying possible consistent errors presented by either drive.

Rip with one drive to flac (Shift + F5), and then generate a test CRC (F8) with the other.  If the Read CRC matches the Test CRC then you are good to go.  If not, then use EAC's compare feature to see where they differ.  If they differ only at the edge(s) of the file then this is due to each of the drives having different read offsets but one or both not being able to overread, in which case everything is still ok.  If they differ elsewhere then there is a problem with the rip coming from at least one of the drives, if not both.

how to clone an audio cd pefectly (1:1 quality of detail)

Reply #24
Hi Greynol, so is this result means we did it successfully?

First rip, using Pioneer drive (F5, no CRC check)
Code: [Select]
Used drive  : PIONEER DVD-RW  DVR-K16M   Adapter: 0  ID: 0

Read mode              : Secure
Utilize accurate stream : Yes
Defeat audio cache      : Yes
Make use of C2 pointers : No

Combined read/write offset correction      : 0
Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out          : No
Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
Delete leading and trailing silent blocks  : No
Null samples used in CRC calculations      : No
Used interface                              : Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000
Gap handling                                : Not detected, thus appended to previous track

Used output format              : User Defined Encoder
Selected bitrate                : 768 kBit/s
Quality                        : High
Add ID3 tag                    : No
Command line compressor        : E:\Exact Audio Copy\FLAC\FLAC.EXE
Additional command line options : -6 -V -T "ARTIST=%a" -T "TITLE=%t" -T "ALBUM=%g" -T "DATE=%y"
 -T "TRACKNUMBER=%n" -T "GENRE=%m" -T "COMMENT=%e" %j--picture="%i"%j %s -o %d


TOC of the extracted CD

    Track |  Start  |  Length  | Start sector | End sector
    ---------------------------------------------------------
        1  |  0:00.00 | 23:58.51 |        0    |  107900 


Track  1

    Filename D:\Track01.wav

    Peak level 61.6 %
    Extraction speed 1.5 X
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC 5E887294
    Copy OK

No errors occurred

End of status report
Second rip log (with HL drive, F8, with CRC check)
Code: [Select]
Used drive  : HL-DT-STDVDRAM GU10N   Adapter: 0  ID: 1

Read mode              : Secure
Utilize accurate stream : Yes
Defeat audio cache      : No
Make use of C2 pointers : No

Read offset correction                      : 667
Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out          : No
Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
Delete leading and trailing silent blocks  : No
Null samples used in CRC calculations      : No
Used interface                              : Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000
Gap handling                                : Not detected, thus appended to previous track

Used output format              : User Defined Encoder
Selected bitrate                : 768 kBit/s
Quality                        : High
Add ID3 tag                    : No
Command line compressor        : C:\Program Files (x86)\Exact Audio Copy\FLAC\FLAC.EXE
Additional command line options : -6 -V -T "ARTIST=%a" -T "TITLE=%t" -T "ALBUM=%g" -T "DATE=%y"
 -T "TRACKNUMBER=%n" -T "GENRE=%m" -T "COMMENT=%e" %j--picture="%i"%j %s -o %d


TOC of the extracted CD

    Track |  Start  |  Length  | Start sector | End sector
    ---------------------------------------------------------
        1  |  0:00.00 | 23:58.51 |        0    |  107900 


Track  1

    Filename D:\Final Fantasy\Track01.wav

    Peak level 61.6 %
    Extraction speed 5.2 X
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC 5E887294
    Track not present in AccurateRip database
    Copy OK