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Topic: Why is my volume metered in -db? (Read 19197 times) previous topic - next topic
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Why is my volume metered in -db?

I'm just curious as to why my Yamaha home receiver has the volume metered in -db(why the minus?)? I can start hearing around -65db and normal listening level is around -45db. I assume 0db is as high as it goes, but -20db is about as far as I've gone.

Most other volume meters I've come across are all measured in +db with 0db being silent.  I've seen -db in other devices too, but +db is obviously more popular.

What's the difference? I really don't understand the -db.

Thanks

Why is my volume metered in -db?

Reply #1 –
Think of it as an attenuation. 0dB is the level coming out at the same as it's going in.

Why is my volume metered in -db?

Reply #2 –
0dB can't be coming out "the same", since the audio is clearly being amplified. Or maybe I'm missing something... My Pioneer receiver goes all the way up to +12 dB which seems arbitrary. I think 0dB in my case is the standard which the room correction uses for calibration.

Why is my volume metered in -db?

Reply #3 –
Quote from: mgray on
I'm just curious as to why my Yamaha home receiver has the volume metered in -db(why the minus?)? I can start hearing around -65db and normal listening level is around -45db. I assume 0db is as high as it goes, but -20db is about as far as I've gone.

Most other volume meters I've come across are all measured in +db with 0db being silent.  I've seen -db in other devices too, but +db is obviously more popular.

What's the difference? I really don't understand the -db.

Thanks


Decibels are a ratio (actually the log of a ratio), so 0dB means there is no difference between the two things you are comparing in the ratio.

Power amplifers increase the level by a fixed amount,  so to allow adjustsments there is often an attenuator before the actual amplification (your volume control).

In this case the ratio used to calculate the decibels is a comparision of the signal before and after the attentuation (which is before the power amp). 0dB means no attentuation before the power amplifier, and therefore it is at it's loudest. The negative decibles indicates that the level is less after the attenuation.

Why is my volume metered in -db?

Reply #4 –
Quote from: mgray on
Most other volume meters I've come across are all measured in +db with 0db being silent.

Since dB is a logarithmic scale, silence (zero volume) cannot be represented in dB.

Why is my volume metered in -db?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: pdq on
Quote from: mgray on
Most other volume meters I've come across are all measured in +db with 0db being silent.

Since dB is a logarithmic scale, silence (zero volume) cannot be represented in dB.

Quite right.

And generally speaking, the question put by the topic starter needs to be specified.

A volume knob of a power amplifier graduated in dBs, it’s one thing.
But the power level indicator of a power amplifier graduated in dBs, it’s just another.

I don’t find any useful volume knobs of a power amplifier to be graduated in dBs, for a user.

As for a power level indicator of a power amplifier graduated in dBs, it may be useful for to see what power is delivered by the power amp to the loudspeaker systems, and to control this power. And surely, to avoid overload of the power amp itself (above the “0 dB” (100%) power level, where “0 dB” represents 100% nominal power of the amp).

For the rest, I think, you can stay quiet and use your amp at power levels you wish, without worrying about these numbers.

Why is my volume metered in -db?

Reply #6 –
Quote from: andy o on
0dB can't be coming out "the same", since the audio is clearly being amplified. Or maybe I'm missing something...


Right, on a power amp 0 dB is simply some arbitrarily chosen level.

On a piece of audio production gear that is deisgned for line level in, line leve out, it is probable that 0 dB means that output level - input level.

Quote
My Pioneer receiver goes all the way up to +12 dB which seems arbitrary.


Yup.

Quote
I think 0dB in my case is the standard which the room correction uses for calibration.


Could be. What does the user manual and the service manual (or shop manual)  say?

Why is my volume metered in -db?

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote
I think 0dB in my case is the standard which the room correction uses for calibration.


Could be. What does the user manual and the service manual (or shop manual)  say?

I don't think the manual says anything, but the room calibration automatically sets volume to 0 dB when calibrating.

Why is my volume metered in -db?

Reply #8 –
This is an interesting subject.

Where do you guys recommend as the best place to turn down?

Even in a simple chain you get foobar, audio interface and powered speakers. You could easily add both windows and a hardware mixer.

They all prefer to work best at 0dB but if you leave everything like that you would deaf in no time flat.

I have noticed that real studio set up add another attenuation stage between the mixer and speakers called a monitor controller but this seems a bit excessive for home use.

Why is my volume metered in -db?

Reply #9 –
Usually close to the end. If you are using a receiver which is serving as your amp, use that as your volume control. If you are using a mixer + amp + speakers, or mixer + powered speakers, turn it down on the mixer.

Why is my volume metered in -db?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: RonaldDumsfeld on
They all prefer to work best at 0dB but if you leave everything like that you would deaf in no time flat.


Why?

0db in all those controls usually just means Max i.e. Not Attenuated i.e. Passthrough.


Then finally tone it down with your amp, and all is well.


Or do you mean someone could conceivably listen to damaging amounts of volume and somehow not notice it? 


Edit:
I read too quickly and did not account for hardware mixers between the computer and the final amplifier. I'm unsure if 0db in those devices always means passthrough.

Why is my volume metered in -db?

Reply #11 –
Here is something else that puzzles me.

For sake of simplicity lets assume I'm playing a new commercial quality CD track via foobar. I have the gain at max (i.e. 0dB?) and use ASIO drivers so I'm 'bit perfect'.

When that signal hits my audio interface (MOTU Ultralite Hybrid) via USB or Firewire then according to the built in hardware metering and the software tool CueMix  that signal occasionally exceeds 0dB and goes into the red.  I don't see how that is possible unless the MOTU is designed to err on the side of caution and is calibrated to over read. Is this likely? What's going on.

That level of output registers on a mixer as top of the green (0dB + 4dBu). It's an old analogue mixer designed for analogue input and  it's normal to push it into at least the orange and the red warnings don't flash until it reaches +12dB. So what gives? Why are analogue and digital levels treated differently.

Quote
Then finally tone it down with your amp, and all is well.


Yes. Of course. Powered monitors are rightly very popular at the moment but not everyone is aware that they quite often come with a centre indent set at 0dB. The manufacturers want you to enjoy them at their best and they figure that no attenuation (or gain) on the input signal will give the best results.

For example I have a pair of ADAM A3X (bi-amped 4x25W amps). They used to live on my desktop but if I fed them a 0dB signal, which you ought to from a mixer, then the gain on the ADAMs was barely 10% of the travel and the best solution proved to be moving the monitors further away.
What I f

Why is my volume metered in -db?

Reply #12 –
Quote from: RonaldDumsfeld on
Here is something else that puzzles me.

For sake of simplicity lets assume I'm playing a new commercial quality CD track via foobar. I have the gain at max (i.e. 0dB?) and use ASIO drivers so I'm 'bit perfect'.

When that signal hits my audio interface (MOTU Ultralite Hybrid) via USB or Firewire then according to the built in hardware metering and the software tool CueMix  that signal occasionally exceeds 0dB and goes into the red.  I don't see how that is possible unless the MOTU is designed to err on the side of caution and is calibrated to over read. Is this likely? What's going on.
I'm no expert, but perhaps this is due to clipping in the digital signal on the CD itself, especially if it's a "new commercial . . . CD" (loudness war). I wondered / was slightly paranoid about something similar in an interface I previously owned.

Why is my volume metered in -db?

Reply #14 –
Quote from: mgray on
I'm just curious as to why my Yamaha home receiver has the volume metered in -db(why the minus?)? I can start hearing around -65db and normal listening level is around -45db. I assume 0db is as high as it goes, but -20db is about as far as I've gone.

You might need to start here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel. Decibels are relative to some reference. In the case of your amplifier, they should be relative to rated power output. If you set your amp to 0 dB and supply a full-scale signal at the proper reference level at the input (the reference level for consumer gear is typically -10 dBV*), you should get maximum power output. You can go above 0 dB to accommodate a low input signal or to drive the amp into clipping.

*dBV is a special form of Decibel with a built in 1 V reference.

Why is my volume metered in -db?

Reply #15 –
Great link. Thanks Alex. That nails it

Why is my volume metered in -db?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: tropicalfish on
Usually close to the end. If you are using a receiver which is serving as your amp, use that as your volume control. If you are using a mixer + amp + speakers, or mixer + powered speakers, turn it down on the mixer.



Although it might add a tiny bit of noise, I actually prefer to have more than one stage that isn't at zero.  That's purely for "safety" reasons, since if the only stage not at full level is the last one and someone say, knocks or drops a remote control then the sound could end up coming out at full blast!  If there are two or three controls in the path not at full level then it's less likely to be damaging or annoying if something like that happens.

Why is my volume metered in -db?

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Notat on
In the case of your amplifier, they should be relative to rated power output.
"should"  I think, if you're lucky, it might be a real dB scale that's related to something - possibly a made up number or arbitrary reference.

But I bet there's even some equipment out there that says "dB" when it's not really a dB scale at all.

I wouldn't take it too seriously, unless it's proven or known to be accurate.

Cheers,
David.

Why is my volume metered in -db?

Reply #18 –
My amplifier goes to 11 dB.