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Topic: IEM Cables, do they make a difference? (Read 12435 times) previous topic - next topic
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IEM Cables, do they make a difference?

I've seen a lot of people on local forums and Head-fi changing their stock Custom IEM cables, and descriptions like "night and day" are common.

I'm hoping someone has experience comparing $300 cables like twag, lune, or whatever fancy cable there is out there, to stock ones.

IEM Cables, do they make a difference?

Reply #1 –
Cables have no effect on sound whatsoever considering the length*watt/diameter ratio that concerns headphones. This is scientifically proven. All other claims are audiophile nonsense invented by some charlatans in order to make money by selling absurdely overpriced producs.

IEM Cables, do they make a difference?

Reply #2 –
Quote from: Rasp on
I've seen a lot of people on local forums and Head-fi changing their stock Custom IEM cables, and descriptions like "night and day" are common.

Ask those making the claims to provide scientific evidence of those claims before spending a single penny. When they can't, enjoy the money you've saved, or spend it on something else that can be scientifically proven to make an audible difference. Simples.

IEM Cables, do they make a difference?

Reply #3 –
When coupled w/ a high output impedance source, BA driven IEMs seem to lose damping on their resonant frequency:
http://fuchinove.ninja-mania.jp/ampand10pro.html
(for Triple.Fi10Pro, the crossover lies @ 1kHz thus with increasing outputZ, 1kHz pops out while attenuating upper/lower freqs)

If IEM is equipped with a poor quality cable, then the cable replacment would be something to think about. But I think it's just better to change the amplifier with an output impedance less than 1ohm.

IEM Cables, do they make a difference?

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Slipstreem on
Quote from: Rasp on
I've seen a lot of people on local forums and Head-fi changing their stock Custom IEM cables, and descriptions like "night and day" are common.

Ask those making the claims to provide scientific evidence of those claims before spending a single penny. When they can't, enjoy the money you've saved, or spend it on something else that can be scientifically proven to make an audible difference. Simples.


I would be stiring a shitstorm, like an atheist in a christian forum, asking honest questions about the bible... I've always be a very objective person in life too, so reading the forums here on such issues is enlightening. Luckily the only money I wasted on cables was buying a silver interconnect for my ipod rather then a copper one. Head-Fi is full of people advocating cables and stuff. Wondering if I should come here for equipment advice instead.

Udauda, I don't really understand! But I own a portable amp (iqube). Specs on the net shows that it has

Output impedance:
<0,1 ohm @ f<5kHz
< 1,5 ohm @ 20kHz

Also, do desktop amps do a much better job than portable amps for IEMs? After all the hype about portable amps, I decided to get a decent one to try, in 2009. For the little improvement the iqube provides, I could have bought an outstanding desktop amp instead. =/

Currently using a pair of 3 year old Livewires (2 driver custom). Ordered a pair of JH16s that will arrive in a few weeks!!

IEM Cables, do they make a difference?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Rasp on
I've seen a lot of people on local forums and Head-fi changing their stock Custom IEM cables, and descriptions like "night and day" are common.


One of the ironies of life is that *real* differences among enitre whole pieces of audio gear like a complete digital player are rarely "night and day".  Yes there may be slight audible differences (or not), but "night and day" is truely rare. It takes  true POS junk equipment to play the role of "night" to the most ideal and perfect player's "day".

Moving on to a relatively short piece of wire, operating at with a moderately low impedance source into a moderate impedance load like a IEM, the likely or even possible differences are far, far smaller.

OTOH, humans can be very suggestable, and paying $100s for a cable that should only cost a few dollars or a few dozen dollars is a powerful suggestion.

Not that making an IEM cable is trivial - the demands for extreme flexibility and light weight are significant. But, when produced in reasonable quantities, the costs should still be only a few dollars or a couple of dozen dollars at the most.

Quote
I'm hoping someone has experience comparing $300 cables like twag, lune, or whatever fancy cable there is out there, to stock ones.


The problem is that anybody smart enough to do proper comparisons is way too smart to waste that kind of money on something whose price should be far, far less.

We have decades of experience with the same kind of thing related to speaker cables and interconnecting cables for home hifi, and it has long been known to be a complete and total bluff.

IEM Cables, do they make a difference?

Reply #6 –
Yeah, IEM cables often (perhaps usually) have impedance networks in their cabling to tune their response. It is, perhaps, not appreciated enough that the different Etymotic ER4 series IEMs only differ in terms of the impedance they stick in the cabling, and in fact, you can convert an ER4P to an ER4S by connecting an adapter which is merely a couple resistors.

So, varying those impedances - which, superficially, is a cable change - can cause measurable impacts to the sound. But this is an absurdly special case - adding resistors inline to the signal path, of this magnitude, generally compromises performance in every other use of audio cables. So you can't really generalize it.

IEM Cables, do they make a difference?

Reply #7 –
Quote
I own a portable amp (iqube). Specs on the net shows that it has

Output impedance:
<0,1 ohm @ f<5kHz
< 1,5 ohm @ 20kHz


These seem to be pretty ordinary specs.

Quote
Also, do desktop amps do a much better job than portable amps for IEMs? After all the hype about portable amps, I decided to get a decent one to try, in 2009. For the little improvement the iqube provides, I could have bought an outstanding desktop amp instead. =/


There's nothing good that can be done with a headphone amp that can't be also be done in a portable version.

Quote
Currently using a pair of 3 year old Livewires (2 driver custom). Ordered a pair of JH16s that will arrive in a few weeks!!


Rather than spending so much on IEMs, you'd get far more enjoyment for your money from a good parametric equalizer.

IEM Cables, do they make a difference?

Reply #8 –
Axon, that is very interesting.

Arnold, does it mean any amp that is properly built (decent) is sufficient for IEMs/headphones, regardless of cost? Are the equalizers in rockboxed portable players comparable to "parametric" equalizers? I read wikipedia on it, and it seems to be desktop equipment.

Regarding the purchase of the JH16, I spend many hours a week commuting, so I'll definitely clock lots of time on it. It will probably not be that great an improvement compared to my old $60 IEMs -> Livewires (2 driver custom). Sold off my HD650 because I preferred the weightlessness feeling IEM gives. Now wondering if I should sell off my portable amp too.

IEM Cables, do they make a difference?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Rasp on
Axon, that is very interesting.

Arnold, does it mean any amp that is properly built (decent) is sufficient for IEMs/headphones, regardless of cost? Are the equalizers in rockboxed portable players comparable to "parametric" equalizers? I read wikipedia on it, and it seems to be desktop equipment.


I'm not going to give a blanket approval for *everything* sight unseen and sound unheard. But, it doesn't take a lot of gold and silver to "do it right".

I don't have any first hand experience with rockboxed portable players. However, what I've seen to date in portable players has not warmed the cockles of my heart.


Quote
Regarding the purchase of the JH16, I spend many hours a week commuting, so I'll definitely clock lots of time on it. It will probably not be that great an improvement compared to my old $60 IEMs -> Livewires (2 driver custom). Sold off my HD650 because I preferred the weightlessness feeling IEM gives. Now wondering if I should sell off my portable amp too.


I try to limit my comments on stuff I have personal experience, and I have no clue about much of what I read about that people have, expect that I know what can be achieved with careful spending.

IMO the world awaits a well done $60-100 parametric eq/headphone amp. No reason why it can't be done, and what it could do would truely amaze a great many people.

IEM Cables, do they make a difference?

Reply #10 –
I've done a ton of experimentation and measurements with headphones and headphone related eqiupment.  As far as IEMs go, there are only two solid reasons why you would "need" an amp with an IEM.

1). Lack of volume (typically not an issue with IEMs).
2). The output impedance of your source/amp is high.

2 is also rarely an issue.  It seems like all the well known players (Walkman, Ipod, Cowon, Sansa) have a reasonably low output impedance and any changes to the frequency response due do impedance variations (of the IEM) are minimal in terms of audibility.  Even many cell phones now have low impedance outputs that measure very well.

As for headphone cables, I've heard a ton of them.  Good luck to anybody who wants to demonstrate a difference in a blind test.  IEM cables should not have resistors built into them unless the designers specifically wanted a particular effect like the etymotics.

As for the portable versus desktop amp question, an amp does what an amp is supposed to do.  It takes a signal and amplifies it.  A well designed desktop amp will simply allow you to run headphones with high impedance and lower sensitivity to acceptable volumes.  That being said, many high impedance headphones are sensitive enough that they can be run out of many portable amps without issue.  As a general rule of thumb I say that a headphone like the HD600 needs a ~6V supply at minimum.  A 9V amp like the Mini3 can drive the HD600 well into ear-damaging volumes, especially with loud music like modern pop music.

Quote
Now wondering if I should sell off my portable amp too.


I find portable amps to be (mostly) a waste due to size.  The only truly "portable" amp I've seen is the Fiio E5.  I highly recommend you conduct a volume matched test listening comparing your PMP to the Iqube.  If you cannot hear a difference or the differences are minimal, say goodbye to the iqube.  I suspect you will say goodbye to the iqube

Quote
IMO the world awaits a well done $60-100 parametric eq/headphone amp. No reason why it can't be done, and what it could do would truely amaze a great many people.


For the most part I agree.  What actually needs to be done is for PMP makers to stuff a parametric EQ into the player.  Then we can toss the external amplifier completely for a lot of headphones.  As for why it has not been made, I suspect it's because there is a lot of money being made selling $500 portable amplifiers that don't do much of anything except induce placebo.

IEM Cables, do they make a difference?

Reply #11 –
Quote from: odigg on
Quote
IMO the world awaits a well done $60-100 parametric eq/headphone amp. No reason why it can't be done, and what it could do would truely amaze a great many people.


For the most part I agree.  What actually needs to be done is for PMP makers to stuff a parametric EQ into the player.  Then we can toss the external amplifier completely for a lot of headphones.


Yes of course in a perfect world this stuff would all be in the most economical place to put it - inside the player.

Quote
As for why it has not been made, I suspect it's because there is a lot of money being made selling $500 portable amplifiers that don't do much of anything except induce placebo.


I'm not into conspiracy theories. I'll chalk it up to lack of vision of a market for it.

IEM Cables, do they make a difference?

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Yes of course in a perfect world this stuff would all be in the most economical place to put it - inside the player.


I hope that with the coming onslaught of tablets and mobile operating systems running them, somebody sees their potential as audio sources and creates music player application with a good EQ.  Then it's just a matter of shrinking the GUI down for a pocketable device.

Quote
I'm not into conspiracy theories. I'll chalk it up to lack of vision of a market for it.


Well, perhaps I was too harsh with my comment.  A large number of portable amplifiers are hand made by boutique manufacturers and sold for very high prices because of this.  The only way they are going to add a parametric EQ to their products is to use a very low power chip that serves this purpose and that has the circuit to either communicate with a computer or drive an LCD.  Does such a chip exist?  I know that five band chips exist, but anything greater than that?  How much would such a product cost from these boutique manufacturers?  Another $500 just for the EQ?

Beyond that, many portable devices already have 5 band EQs.  Cowon products have a superb (for a portable device) EQ.

What's left is companies like Fiio.  They are coming up with the E7 -it's got a variable bass boost, but obviously that doesn't count as the type of parametric EQ we are talking about.  Is Fiio going to sell enough E7s to lead them to believe there is a market for a $100 portable EQ+amp (assuming it can be made)?  Time will tell.

IEM Cables, do they make a difference?

Reply #13 –
Quote
Are the equalizers in rockboxed portable players comparable to  "parametric" equalizers?
 
the EQ of a Rockbox modified player are 5 band parametric EQ with the well-known Bristow-Johnson transfer functions. The crossfeed in Rockbox is also very good and finely ajustable.
Together EQ + crossfeed use quite a lot of the internal DSP power of a player but it's very recommended anyway, for no $ at all !!!

IEM Cables, do they make a difference?

Reply #14 –
Quote from: odigg on
A large number of portable amplifiers are hand made by boutique manufacturers and sold for very high prices because of this.


Also, low volumes make low prices and high function very difficult.

Quote
The only way they are going to add a parametric EQ to their products is to use a very low power chip that serves this purpose and that has the circuit to either communicate with a computer or drive an LCD.  Does such a chip exist?


Yes, as DSPs.

Quote
I know that five band
chips exist, but anything greater than that?  How much would such a product cost from these boutique manufacturers?  Another $500 just for the EQ?


My friends who design OEM automotive sound systems for the 6 biggest car companies tell me that the DSPs in their head-end products have over 50 bands of full parametric eq at their disposal for customizing their sound system to individual vehicles.

Quote
Beyond that, many portable devices already have 5 band EQs.  Cowon products have a superb (for a portable device) EQ.


I'm sure that the perceived demands of the marketplace factor into what is actually available.

Quote
What's left is companies like Fiio.  They are coming up with the E7 -it's got a variable bass boost, but obviously that doesn't count as the type of parametric EQ we are talking about.  Is Fiio going to sell enough E7s to lead them to believe there is a market for a $100 portable EQ+amp (assuming it can be made)?  Time will tell.


Because there already is a DSP, controls and display in the portable player, its possible that the Eq function of our dreams would simply be a matter of adding this function to their firmware.

IEM Cables, do they make a difference?

Reply #15 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Because there already is a DSP, controls and display in the portable player, its possible that the Eq function of our dreams would simply be a matter of adding this function to their firmware.


Which, for some reason, many manufacturers find to be a headache.  I don't think anybody understands why so many products (e.g. like the IPOD) don't have a good customizable EQ.  Is it about having the EQ built into the DSP as hardware instructions instead of software to preserve battery life?

IEM Cables, do they make a difference?

Reply #16 –
I'll risk a thought about why you might not get good EQ into DAPs. The DAP market is very competitive; if it increases costs even a small amount, that's a big problem, unless it increases perceived value.

But, for most users, a parametric EQ not only won't increase value, but might be a negative. Too complicated. Scoff not. I am old enough to remember when the most EQ you had on mainstream sound equipment was a tone control, and the first time I met separate bass and treble knobs, it took a little exploration to figure out. Also, the greater the control, the greater the chance of messing it up. Most people want to just put it on and listen to music--and you may have noticed the fashion for pairs of people to share one set of earbuds? If the primary market doesn't mind hearing only one channel, I guess they're not going to be excited about parametric EQ.

I suppose DSPs in cars are used to tune the equipment to the cabin, and are set and forget?

Perhaps a gadget accessing the DSP through something like the iThing dock would be a possibility.

IEM Cables, do they make a difference?

Reply #17 –
Reasons cables might make a difference:

1) Microphonics - with some cable/IEM combos, the cable rubbing against something, such as your shirt, will be quite audible.

2)  Impedance -  as mentioned above

3) Defective cable - the wires inside some cables break more easily than others.

Fixing any of these issues is a lot less than $300.

IEM Cables, do they make a difference?

Reply #18 –
Quote from: MichaelW on
I'll risk a thought about why you might not get good EQ into DAPs. The DAP market is very competitive; if it increases costs even a small amount, that's a big problem, unless it increases perceived value.


Yes, I think you've got some very sound thinking here.  From what I've seen in PMPs, EQs seem to be built into the hardware.  Thus building a full blown parametric EQ would require the chip designer to design such feature.  At what cost, both in terms of price and battery life?  Since PMPs are typically sold by the high volume, it may not be financially sensible for any chip maker or PMP maker to create/utilize such a chip.  Even if they did build it, how much would they charge for it?  Would anybody buy it?

PMPs are also losing market share to cellular phones.  If the price crept up to $400 that would be far too much, especially considering that the "audiophiles" such a device was created for would likely snub their noses at it because "PMPs sound like crap."

I didn't think about things this way so thanks for your comment.

Quote
Perhaps a gadget accessing the DSP through something like the iThing dock would be a possibility.


Just bury it in some random configuration menu.  The geeks will find it!

IEM Cables, do they make a difference?

Reply #19 –
Wow, I've learned more things than in my 2 years of surfing "audio" forums. Will be following this thread even if I don't reply.

IEM Cables, do they make a difference?

Reply #20 –
Quote from: odigg on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Because there already is a DSP, controls and display in the portable player, its possible that the Eq function of our dreams would simply be a matter of adding this function to their firmware.


Which, for some reason, many manufacturers find to be a headache.  I don't think anybody understands why so many products (e.g. like the IPOD) don't have a good customizable EQ.  Is it about having the EQ built into the DSP as hardware instructions instead of software to preserve battery life?


Not at all. DSP hardware instructions are very multi-purpose. The same instructions that are used to implement the simplist tone controls or decoder are also used (in far greater quantity and with different parameters) to implment the most complex equalization and other kinds of signal processing (say, dynamic expansion) that you can imagine. 

A music player with complex signal processing capabilities *might* need a DSP with higher MIPs and/or RAM, which might in turn require more power.  The UI issue could probably be finessed by making equalizer setup a function that requires hooking up to a computer.

That's how its done with OEM car audio systems - the system engineer's laptop runs pseical setup software and has an interface that connects to the vehicle's LAN. The laptop accesses the audio system's OEM setup parameters via the vehcle's LAN. The automotive electronics access the vehicle's VIN via the LAN at power-on, and selects the proper set of parameters for the particular kind of vehicle. Often the power amps are co-located with speakers. They are on the vehicle's LAN and have equalizers of their own that are set up in a similar fashion.

IEM Cables, do they make a difference?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: odigg on
From what I've seen in PMPs, EQs seem to be built into the hardware.  Thus building a full blown parametric EQ would require the chip designer to design such feature.


PMPs are based on DSP chips. The deccoder, equalization, power management and all other functions are impemented in firmware which is of course just software that is loaded every time you turn the PMP on.

Spec Sheet for PMP including block diagram

BTW don't be confused by the terminology in the block diagram on the page linked. The "codec" is a special purpose analog/digital converter. In general, DAC and DSP manufacturers call chips with both ADCs and DACs on one chip a "Codec".

IEM Cables, do they make a difference?

Reply #22 –
Quote from: MichaelW on
I'll risk a thought about why you might not get good EQ into DAPs. The DAP market is very competitive; if it increases costs even a small amount, that's a big problem, unless it increases perceived value.


The nature of things is that while the price/performance of chips keeps going up, the chip manufacturers want to keep the chip price constant. Therefore they are always looking for functions to add to the chip that will add value.