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Topic: First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!? (Read 22223 times) previous topic - next topic
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First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Hey everyone,

I'm currently using Sennheiser HD-595s with my motherboard's Realtek offering and would like to upgrade to my first DAC-Amp combo. My price range is £90-£140, and there are quite a few budget DACs I've come across, namely:

Zero
Super DAC Pro 707
Aune / HiFi DIY

These can all be viewed on eBay. My problem is that all the advice/reviews I've seen have been based on psuedoscience, with people claiming the superiority of one over the other based on cables, power supplies and so on. Their specifications all seem fairly similar, and whilst I'd like the option of being able to use RCA inputs with a headphone amp (as is the case with the Aune), it's not a deal breaker if, say, the Zero offers better sound quality without such a feature.

Unlike most other audio forums, the people here seem to have a reasonable approach to hardware without delving into psuedoscience. So my question to you is: Have any of you given these a go, and could someone with more expertise than me objectively tell me which is likely to provide the best sound quality? I apologise for how broad the term 'sound quality' is, but I don't like delving into the audio jargon (bass sounding 'fresh', 'alive', 'frigid' etc ), and I haven't the expertise to use a term more scientific.

First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Reply #1 –
The no-nonsense advice (which I think is kinda obvious) I would give is to get a receiver. You'll get many more functions for about the same price (how much are you spending on the amp, BTW?). You'll get a remote, and multiple inputs/outputs, and even HDMI and decoding of multiple codecs too.

First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Reply #2 –
These devices combine a DAC and a headphone amp, and all of them output from the DAC to RCA as well. The Aune also allows RCA input, which connects to the integrated headphone amp.

I am going to be using this just with a computer (and, assuming I get the Aune, with a record player), so I don't really need features like HDMI/codec support, just USB or optical input.

First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Reply #3 –
Sorry, I missed the headphone part. In any case, is there anything particularly wrong with your Realtek audio? Which chip is it? I gather the 889 is pretty good, and has many functions that I like, such as Dolby Headphone, which works great with multichannel sources if you don't have a 5.1 setup.

First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Reply #4 –
I have the Realtek ALC885, which in fairness is very impressive for an integrated device. They've come a long way in only a few years!

However, I'd like to amp my headphones, and any future headphones I buy (HD-600/HD-650 etc) will surely require an amp for best performance. Another reason for an external DAC is some problems of interference I've had with the integrated provision, and as I understand it, I can expect a marked (albeit not life changing... ) improvement in sound quality with a dedicated DAC?

Just to mention, I've also noticed a few 'tube' amps (such as the Little Dot), but I'm far from convinced over the tube psuedo-science, and would prefer solid-state where possible. So if you know of one which is better than the 3 I have listed, please do say.

First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Reply #5 –
yeah, the main reason for ditching integrated mobo audio is if you hear noise or interference, I guess. The 885 is I think the lower-end one, so I'm not sure how good is it.

About amps, there's a lot of talk here about them. Others are much more knowledgeable, but the consensus seems to be that for most headphones it doesn't matter that much, unless what you want is actual amplification (higher level). Headphone impedance matters, but again, others will be able to explain in detail.

First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Reply #6 –
Quote from: JacksonGrey on
However, I'd like to amp my headphones, and any future headphones I buy (HD-600/HD-650 etc) will surely require an amp for best performance. Another reason for an external DAC is some problems of interference I've had with the integrated provision, and as I understand it, I can expect a marked (albeit not life changing... ) improvement in sound quality with a dedicated DAC?

I have the Sennheiser HD-580 which is very similar to the HD-600 and HD-650 and I used it for years un-amped straight out of my motherboard's on-board sound. It was loud enough for me with no detectable interference/hissing/static/distortions. It would not go quite as loud as the HD-555 (50ohm model) which is pretty much identical to the HD-595.

I considered about a dozen headphone amps anyway! thinking I 'needed' one to fully utilize my headphones. My searches and reading here at Hydrogenaudio is what finally moved me away from buying a boutique amp and I got a Yamaha receiver instead. While I do not need all the inputs and outputs nor use all the bells and whistles, it does what I do need very very well and at an impressive price. The receiver amplifies my headphones to stupidly loud volumes without any detectable distortion. The receiver handles every digital format I can throw at it at any frequency/bit-rate I care to send to it. And it works with my 5.1 surround set up just as great as it does with my headphones!

I do think computer sound chip makers work to a different standard than companies working on dedicated receivers/amps and that the dedicated solution probably is going to sound a little bit better. I do not believe a boutique amp is going to sound any better than a decent receiver. Human perceptions are heavily influenced by expectations though so your experience might be different from mine.

It has been said here many times and my own experience agrees that for the best sound save your money on the amp, and spend the money you saved on your speakers. I am very pleased with the results I got following that advice.

First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Reply #7 –
Quote from: JacksonGrey on
However, I'd like to amp my headphones, and any future headphones I buy (HD-600/HD-650 etc) will surely require an amp for best performance.


All this claims of "headphones require a special amp for best performance" is rubbish.  I've tried a lot of headphones (ranging from high sensitivity low impedance headphones to low sensitivity high impedance headphones) and found modern onboard sound chips can drive them without issue.  With low impedance headphones you might have some bass rolloff, but it may not audible in a major way if the impedance is higher than 25 ohms or so.

How can I make such a statement?  I've done volume matched tests comparing the onboard sound to amps/dacs, etc.  I predict a lot of people would fail such a blind test.  There is always the issue of electronic noise with onboard sound chips, but I've found that is not an issue once music actually starts playing at comfortable levels.

I drive all my headphones (some really expensive ones) with my onboard sound

Finally, if I was in the market for such devices I would pick these in the following order.  Personally, I would pick number 2 just so I have a portable amp (not that I need it).

1.  Echo Audiofire 4 - can also test eqiupment.
2. Echo Audiofire 4 + Mini 3
3.  AMB Labs Y1 + Mini 3

If I really wanted to to go all out...

4. Echo Audiofire 4 + FireStone Audio Cute Beyond.
5. Amb Labs Y2 + FireStone Audio Cute Beyond.

Honestly, I'm not sold on stuff like the zero.  Few people take measurements and perform controlled tests.  Beyond that, I'm not sold on the build quality of these products as you'll occasionally hear comments about how a device died because they should have used 1/2 watt fuse where they used a 1/4w etc.

**edit**

Just one more point.  There's been a proliferation of multi balanced armature IEMS and these pose a particular problem for portable players and onboard sound.  This is because the impedance of these IEMs can dip very low (below 10).  If you are planning to go this route, I recommend an amp with a very low output impedance like the Mini 3.

First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Reply #8 –
This is all interesting information, thanks for your replies.

Odigg: I checked out the Audiofire 4 and it seems to cost a bit more than I can afford right now. I'm interested by this Y1 + Mini 3 thing, though... Am I right in thinking I'd need to construct this myself?

Kiit: I'm really interested in this receiver idea; in all honesty I've never come across them before as an alternative to a separate headphone DAC, mainly because I have no use for the video functionality. The second hand Yamaha models seem competitively priced on eBay; do you perhaps know of a specific model which is considered a 'bargain' for a price within my budget?

I think the line I've been fed in the past is that even when I have my headphones at a comfortable (fairly low) volume, bass would not be properly represented unless it was amped. I seem to have fallen for that, though I do assure you I've previously drawn the line at snake oil and £1000 cables... When so many of the reviews are as subjective as they are, the more plausible-sounding psuedoscience gets harder to filter out! 

First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: odigg on
There is always the issue of electronic noise with onboard sound chips, but I've found that is not an issue once music actually starts playing at comfortable levels.


That's generally true, as I agree with almost anything else you have said, but there is one notable exception:

Silence has been a fundamental building block of classical music composition for over hundred years. And pauses all have well defined lengths for a much longer time. The silence of a pause intends to present a different perspective to the just heard as it decays in the acoustic short term memory and generally throws back the listener's attention at himself. The terrible, digital interference noise of inexpensive and not properly shielded internal sound codecs can totally destroy this experience.

Quote from: JacksonGrey on
These devices combine a DAC and a headphone amp, and all of them output from the DAC to RCA as well. The Aune also allows RCA input, which connects to the integrated headphone amp.


There's usually not a dedicated headphone amp but the headphone output is just an attenuated branch of the main amplifier.

First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Reply #10 –
rpp3po, I'm fairly convinced I need to get something to replace my Realtek output, if only for the lack of interference. 

One more thing, Kiit, I noticed some of these Yamaha receivers have some sort of amp capacity. I was looking into getting something like the Cambridge A1 as my first step towards a nice pair of speakers... Would the receiver's integrated amp be a match for that? I realise that the amp isn't massively important when compared to the speakers, but I'm just curious.

First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Reply #11 –
I would not recommend using an AV receiver for many headphones.  As rpp3po has pointed out, many of these headphone jacks are just powered by resistors off the main amp circuit.  This means the output impedance is higher than 0 - sometimes much higher than zero.  This audibly changes the frequency response of low impedance headphones sometimes even high impedance headphones.

And yes, the AMB labs stuff is DIY.  Some builders are listed in the AMB labs page.

Another option may be sound cards with amp circuits specifically designed to drive headphones.  Example of this are the HT Claro Halo and Asus Xonar Essence STX.  I'd recommend the STX just because you can adjust the gain via software (I think) whereas with the Halo you have to change a jumper on the board.

Finally, a general rule of thumb for me and many people on HA as well.  Money is spent on headphones/speakers first.  If you are pining for a HD600/650, get that before you get an amp, dac, etc.  The change from a HD595 to another headphone is going to be far greater than any change of eqiupment from a onboard sound card.

Quote
The terrible, digital interference noise of inexpensive and not properly shielded internal sound codecs can totally destroy this experience.


Yes, I agree with you.  However one thing to keep in mind is this depends on the headphones.  A DT880 (250 ohms) is quite silent with onboard sound and IEMs sound like there is a war going on in the computer!  Many IEMs and other high sensitivity low impedance headphones definitely require some sort of device beyond onboard sound if you want to get rid of electronic noise. 

I use full sized headhpone and have found I can live without a seperate DAC or amp.

First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Reply #12 –
It occurred to me that if you can also get gear from the Pro Audio Market.

DAC - Behringer UCA202
AMP - Presonus HP4

Together these will cost less than $150.  As a general rule of thumb  I would not recommend the HP4 for low impedance headphones (less than 50 ohms).  But for the HD595, HD600, and HD650, it should work without issue.

Behringer makes cheaper headphone amps but I haven't tried or tested them.

First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Reply #13 –
The Asus Xonar ST and STX, that also odigg recommended, should be an excellent solution (including noise free silence) for your price range, when coupled with the 50 ohm HD 595. Internal does not necessarily mean noise. Proper shielding and board layout can lead to results that surpass those of inexpensive external solutions by far.

First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Reply #14 –
I have found that headphone listening is more sensitive to the slight static noise of an integrated sound card than speaker listening is. This is because listening with headphones, especially closed ones, creates a well-controlled listening environment with a lower noise floor than your open room.

The benefit of moving to an external unit is that you remove your sound source from the noisy environment of your PC. Assuming the integrated card in your PC is not noisy and has enough power to drive your cans to desired loudness, you don't need an amp. If you get an external DAC with a built in amp that has the same qualifications, you also don't need an external amp. The only reason you should get an amp is if the output of your source is not providing enough volume to satisfy you.

I bought into the amp craziness at Head-Fi two years ago and ended up with a Heed CanAmp and a custom cable running from my modified X-Fi out to the amp. It sounded no better than running straight from the card and might even have been worse.

As others have said, a receiver is probably the best option. I have a Yamaha RX-V663 and it is amazing. I run digital out from my motherboard to my receiver and get crystal-clear decoding of anything I throw at it. Yamaha has several lower-cost RX models - I chose this one for it's HDMI capabilities.

First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Reply #15 –
I wouldn't buy an amp just because someday you might buy headphones that someone told you might work better with an amp.  Wait until you buy the headphones, then RMAA them with your sound card and see if the card's amp is overloaded.  Then once you are informed of the issues, take the appropriate remedy if needed. 

In the meantime, if your current on board is really an issue (and its unclear to me what exactly the issue with it is), then spend a few bucks for a solid PCI card that will deliver 16 bit limited performance.

First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Reply #16 –
What do you guys think of the Xonar U1? I have it. It only works at 48 kHz, but I haven't had any trouble (besides very high level output for my Westone UM2's, which is remedied by an attenuator). I haven't measured resampling, but isn't Vista/Win7 supposed to be pretty good at it anyway?

First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Reply #17 –
Thanks for your replies, guys. Although I like the idea of a simple PCI card, I've tried those in the past and have still had interference problems with my motherboard. Also, I'd quite like to be able to use this device with my laptop when I'm away, so external seems to be the best way to go.

Odigg: I just looked up those two devices you suggested, and they seem to have some nice features indeed! But out of interest, why do you feel these would offer better performance/value than say, the Aune, which has the amp/DAC in one device?

One other thing... I've read quite a lot about 'OP-AMPS' and the effects these supposedly have on certain audio characteristics. Is there any truth to this, or is this more snake oil from the Head-Fi crowd?

First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Reply #18 –
Quote from: JacksonGrey on
Hey everyone,

I'm currently using Sennheiser HD-595s with my motherboard's Realtek offering and would like to upgrade to my first DAC-Amp combo. My price range is £90-£140, and there are quite a few budget DACs I've come across, namely:

Zero
Super DAC Pro 707
Aune / HiFi DIY

These can all be viewed on eBay. My problem is that all the advice/reviews I've seen have been based on psuedoscience, with people claiming the superiority of one over the other based on cables, power supplies and so on. Their specifications all seem fairly similar, and whilst I'd like the option of being able to use RCA inputs with a headphone amp (as is the case with the Aune), it's not a deal breaker if, say, the Zero offers better sound quality without such a feature.


If you want more signal for your headphones, inexpensive headphone amps such as the Fiio E5 can do the job for less than $10-20.

First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Reply #19 –
Quote from: JacksonGrey on
Thanks for your replies, guys. Although I like the idea of a simple PCI card, I've tried those in the past and have still had interference problems with my motherboard. Also, I'd quite like to be able to use this device with my laptop when I'm away, so external seems to be the best way to go.

The only time I have heard interference on my computers from internal sound cards was using the Front Panel connectors. The connectors and the long unshielded cable runs are probably the culprit here. Directly out the back of a sound card or off the motherboard always seemed clean enough with the systems I have used. (well, there was one client's sound card that was defective and had something shorting out that did have a hum to it..) I have never seen measurements demonstrating internal interference showing up at the outputs of internal sound cards, only generally accepted opinion. I typically only research directly on motherboards or sound cards I am interested in obtaining so I could easily have missed something like that. My belief is that some sound cards are poorly designed and people assume it is interference from the motherboard.

I did research external sound cards in the past. Usually driven off the USB port. Some of those units have noisy outputs (try to find a review that does actual measurements on the device you are considering) and using USB has it's own issues which I don't recall the details of just now.. But I remember deciding against them at one point. If you do hook up speakers to an external sound card then want to use it with the laptop you will have to disconnect/reconnect everything for each swap. Your laptop has that much trouble driving the HD-595 (great headphone by the way) or is it noisy too?

I solved my needs with the Yamaha RX-V463 (aka the Yamaha HTR-6140, same unit, different warranty and price). I do not recommend it for people wanting to use HDMI or blu ray movies at some point. It was the least expensive Yamaha receiver I found that met my needs. I still feel the speakers/headphones are the determining factor in sound quality, despite the complexity or simplicity of the (modern) circuits driving them. The way the Yamaha amplifies my speakers/headphones sounds great to me, though I now wish I had gotten something that supported blu ray and HDMI better. Needs change.

I just spent 10 minutes switching my HD-580s (one of the headphones some people say require amplification) back and forth from the sound card's output to the amp's output. At low volume I cannot tell a difference in bass. I have an envy sound chip in this machine, the Yamaha was the amp.. Maybe dedicated headphone amps have special sauce, but I couldn't tell the difference in my system using my ears.

Despite the obvious appeal of having a dedicated headphone amplifier, all those delicious technical details of circuit path and output stages with user selectable op-amps and dacs, which certainly adds to the experience of owning, I have the feeling I probably wouldn't be able to hear the difference.

Get what makes you happy. That is the real point of doing all this, right? You can delight in your decision either way! Sweet audiophile shiny circuits or take your joy from knowing you've spent the bare minimum to get great sound. Either way is a win! (Please don't buy bose is all i ask *nods*)

First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Reply #20 –
Quote from: rpp3po on
There's usually not a dedicated headphone amp but the headphone output is just an attenuated branch of the main amplifier.

rpp3po, do you think this makes a noticeable difference in the sound at the headphone? and if so, how? I have not seen much discussion on that point.

First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: JacksonGrey on
One other thing... I've read quite a lot about 'OP-AMPS' and the effects these supposedly have on certain audio characteristics. Is there any truth to this, or is this more snake oil from the Head-Fi crowd?

Op amps were pretty darned good when I started using them 40 years ago, and since then they have improved by light years. Anyone who says that there is something wrong with a modern high-performance op amp is blowing smoke.

First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Reply #22 –
Quote from: JacksonGrey on
Odigg: I just looked up those two devices you suggested, and they seem to have some nice features indeed! But out of interest, why do you feel these would offer better performance/value than say, the Aune, which has the amp/DAC in one device?


I don't know about the Aune so my comments may not apply to it.

One of my issues with many of these devices is that they make engineering choices based on sound myths.  An example of this are the myths that opamps a) sound bad compared to designs that do not use opamps and b) opamps change sound signatures.  People then go out of their way to create designs without opamps, making devices that may be unnecessary complex and quite possibly worse than a simple opamp circuit.  Since few people are actually measuring these devices, nobody actually knows if these "audiophile" circuits are better than a well designed circuit based on an opamp.

And yes, opamps are great.  Even really inexpensive opamps measure really well.  Beyond that, the stuff around the opamp is more important than the choice of opamp.

I want a well engineered device, not something that makes design choices based on marketing (e.g. big fat capacitors from a certain brand sound best) to people who believe a bunch of myths. 

Beyond that, I want a warranty which doesn't require me to send the product halfway across the world at my expense.

Quote
rpp3po, do you think this makes a noticeable difference in the sound at the headphone? and if so, how? I have not seen much discussion on that point.


To quote myself (I have modified this) - I would not recommend using an AV receiver for certain headphones. As rpp3po has pointed out, many of these headphone jacks are just powered by resistors off the main amp circuit. This means the output impedance is higher than 0 - sometimes much higher than zero. This audibly changes the frequency response of low impedance headphones and *sometimes* with high impedance headphones.

And just to be clear, with high impedance headphones like your HD-580, this is probably not an issue.  It really depends on the receiver you are using.

First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Reply #23 –
This is all food for thought. I guess now I just need to decide how the portability of the small DAC and headphone amp weigh in against the numerous features of a receiver. Thanks a lot for your advice, guys, much appreciated as always!

First DAC/Amp - No Nonsense Advice, Please!?

Reply #24 –
Quote from: odigg on
I would not recommend using an AV receiver for certain headphones. As rpp3po has pointed out, many of these headphone jacks are just powered by resistors off the main amp circuit. This means the output impedance is higher than 0 - sometimes much higher than zero. This audibly changes the frequency response of low impedance headphones and *sometimes* with high impedance headphones.

And just to be clear, with high impedance headphones like your HD-580, this is probably not an issue.  It really depends on the receiver you are using.

What about for a 50ohm headphone like the HD-555/595s the OP (and I) have?

I just tried the HD-580s again, I still couldn't tell a difference from on-board output and yamaha output..
I then tried the HD-555s and thought I noticed a tiny difference in loudness (quieter on the yamaha) but its very hard to be sure given the difficulty of swapping the cable manually. I will say they both sound really good plugged directly into the motherboard line out jacks. The HD-555 is noticeably louder than the HD-580 at the same volume setting either way. Would some of that be the difference from 50ohm to 120ohm impedance?

Got the HD-555s for use with an iPod Touch and they sound plenty loud there. I just can't see the motherboard sound output as not being powerful enough to drive them, noise would be the only reason I can think of for going to SPDIF with an external DAC. At that point the OP needs to know if he wants enough amp for speakers or just headphone amplification before deciding. I know once I got my nice speakers hooked up to the 5.1 receiver my needs changed. I listen a lot more to the speakers now, and I have begun watching more 5.1 content as well. Fun stuff.