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Topic: How to get rid of joint stereo (Read 53429 times) previous topic - next topic
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How to get rid of joint stereo

(If this is already answered, please add link)

So I downloaded lame 3.98 bundle for exact audio copy from rarewares site. I specifically wanted stereo packing, but lame encodes the files all in joint stereo. Then I noticed that audacity suddenly started encoding with joint stereo.. and vlc started packing with joint stereo. What the hell? How do I get rid of this problem? **censored**  Do I need to remove some .dll files or what?

EDIT:  fixed

How to get rid of joint stereo

Reply #1 –
You can add -ms to turn it off. Happy now ?

Anyway don't come here and preach anti-joint stereo and expect a warm welcome.

How to get rid of joint stereo

Reply #2 –
Quote from: paappo on
(If this is already answered, please add link)

So I downloaded lame 3.98 bundle for exact audio copy from rarewares site. I specifically wanted stereo packing, but lame encodes the files all in joint stereo. Then I noticed that audacity suddenly started encoding with joint stereo.. and vlc started packing with joint stereo. What the hell? How do I get rid of this problem? I have tried to avoid joint stereo like a plague, but somehow it haunts in every single audio software I have. Do I need to remove some .dll files or what?


Why do you want to avoid joint stereo in the first place?

How to get rid of joint stereo

Reply #4 –
Quote from: shadowking on
You can add -ms to turn it off. Happy now ?

Anyway don't come here and preach anti-joint stereo and expect a warm welcome.


Sorry, didnt want to upset anyone, I have my reasons for using stereo enc.  I didnt know you guys were so touchy  :I  Honest mistake.

add -ms to .. where?  If I save files with audacity, where do I add the -ms ?

How to get rid of joint stereo

Reply #5 –
LAME has very efficient joint stereo algorithm. It will switch automatically to normal stereo if the difference between channel is too big.
You won't notice the difference.

In fact joint stereo is even better as it saves some extra bitrate that can be given to encoder to spend it where it's more required.

How to get rid of joint stereo

Reply #6 –
Quote from: IgorC on
LAME has very efficient joint stereo algorithm. It will switch automatically to normal stereo if the difference between channel is too big.
You won't notice the difference.

In fact joint stereo is even better as it saves some extra bitrate that can be given to encoder to spend it where it's more required.


Well, you mean, it saves some bits that can be used to  control stereo imaging problems.

One of the classic results of the first two MPEG tests was that two good mono coders don't necessarily make a good stereo coder. Look up "Binaural Masking Level Depression" in Moore's book, or wherever.

But using MS when it's a win allows you to fix that.
-----
J. D. (jj) Johnston

How to get rid of joint stereo

Reply #7 –
Quote from: paappo on
Quote from: shadowking on
You can add -ms to turn it off. Happy now ?

Anyway don't come here and preach anti-joint stereo and expect a warm welcome.


Sorry, didnt want to upset anyone, I have my reasons for using stereo enc.  I didnt know you guys were so touchy  :I  Honest mistake.

add -ms to .. where?  If I save files with audacity, where do I add the -ms ?


The reason we're touchy is because developers of LAME work here, and have designed joint-stereo to be very beneficial to the mp3 alogorithm.  Turning it off hurts your overall quality in most cases.

I'm not sure there is a way to make a custom command line in audacity.  You may have to save to PCM and then use something like foobar to do a conversion with mp3 and your own custom commandline which includes -ms

If you check the foobar2000 section of the board there should be topics on how to use the convert function.  Good luck.
foobar 0.9.6.8
FLAC -5
LAME 3.98 -V3

How to get rid of joint stereo

Reply #9 –
Quote
I specifically wanted stereo packing, but lame encodes the files all in joint stereo.


Audacity 1.3.5, lame_enc.dll 3.98.2 -- "simple stereo" mode works here (but it's very strange that MP3 files exported from Audacity don't use bit reservoir).

Are you sure that file you downloaded is "LAME bundle" (http://www.rarewares.org/mp3-lame-bundle.php), and not "lame_enc.dll (3.98.2) modified to use INI File Setup" ?

How to get rid of joint stereo

Reply #10 –
Quote from: NeoRenegade on
Quote from: paappo on
I have my reasons for using stereo enc.

And they are… ?


Yep I'd also like to know that.

It's funny just how often we get posters enquiring about forcing L/R stereo and when they're informed that it hurts quality they always say "well I want to do it anyway becasue I've got my reasons". Never have I actually heard them explain just what those reasons are though. I must have seen at least half a dozen posts just like this one over the past year or so.

So if you're still there paappo, just for once I'd like to hear what those reasons are.

How to get rid of joint stereo

Reply #11 –
I'm still here

I wanted to force left and right so I can test them on my cd-player and better sound system than this crappy mommyboard soundcard. Even lower than 128kbps sounds decent on this soundcard. I already have clips on joint stereo with different bitrates, I just need stereo clips to compare. I really don't care what is considered the best settings.. I'll pack them the way it sounds best in MY ear. head. or whatever 

How to get rid of joint stereo

Reply #12 –
Quote from: paappo on
I'm still here

I wanted to force left and right so I can test them on my cd-player and better sound system than this crappy mommyboard soundcard. Even lower than 128kbps sounds decent on this soundcard. I already have clips on joint stereo with different bitrates, I just need stereo clips to compare. I really don't care what is considered the best settings.. I'll pack them the way it sounds best in MY ear. head. or whatever 


Ok that's all good. There's more potential for joint stereo to be an improvment over forced L/R at low bitrates so JS should definitely be superior at 128kbps.

Actually JS should be at least as good as forced L/R stereo at any bit rate, but I think it's more noticeable at lower bitrates. How much improvement JS gives also depends on the details of the music you're encoding. If the L and R channels are very similar then you get the biggest improvement, if the L and R channels are very different then the JS algorithm uses plain L/R encoding anyway (that is, even in JS mode the encoder still decides whether to use M/S or L/R on a frame by frame basis). Also note that all modern encoders like ogg vorbis and AAC use similar joint stereo implementations.

How to get rid of joint stereo

Reply #13 –
Quote from: paappo on
I'm still here

I wanted to force left and right so I can test them on my cd-player and better sound system than this crappy mommyboard soundcard. Even lower than 128kbps sounds decent on this soundcard. I already have clips on joint stereo with different bitrates, I just need stereo clips to compare. I really don't care what is considered the best settings.. I'll pack them the way it sounds best in MY ear. head. or whatever 

That seems pretty retarded to me. Unless you are a tree or a gold fish or something, joint stereo will for sure sound better in most cases (if not all, when applied as intended). Not worse, anyway. Whatever...
//From the barren lands of the Northsmen

How to get rid of joint stereo

Reply #14 –
Erm, what are you talking about? The "joint stereo" LAME uses is a lossless process (mid-side stereo) profiting from the high correlation between both stereo channels. Using it (as encouraged by the default setting) will only decrease file size and not affect sound.

How to get rid of joint stereo

Reply #16 –
Ehr, well the whole discussion about which sounds better is then totally pointless (if you read OP's last post regarding which sounds better).
//From the barren lands of the Northsmen

How to get rid of joint stereo

Reply #17 –
Quote from: ojdo on
Erm, what are you talking about? The "joint stereo" LAME uses is a lossless process (mid-side stereo) profiting from the high correlation between both stereo channels. Using it (as encouraged by the default setting) will only decrease file size and not affect sound.


Yes it's what we've been trying to (gently) explain to OP. I don't know why so many people are still suspicious of joint stereo, it's crazy.

How to get rid of joint stereo

Reply #18 –
The suspicions stem from the lack of a single standard of way doing things (design and frontends) like the Vorbis and MPC encoders which had consistent interfaces more or less from day one.

That is why there are endless joint stereo / VBR bloating posts. The are partially a result of mp3 format defects and various implementations (lame / fhg) attempting to abstract them . Although most new mp3 encoder do joint stereo by default , It was much different several years back. I would prefer 'mid-side' instead of the word stereo for mp3 and a 16k lowpass limit for encoding (perhaps a using a more flexible filter like -Y for VBR on all -V levels). There should be options to override all these like --mid-side-off or --enable-HF

How to get rid of joint stereo

Reply #19 –
Quote from: uart on
Quote from: ojdo on
Erm, what are you talking about? The "joint stereo" LAME uses is a lossless process (mid-side stereo) profiting from the high correlation between both stereo channels. Using it (as encouraged by the default setting) will only decrease file size and not affect sound.


Yes it's what we've been trying to (gently) explain to OP. I don't know why so many people are still suspicious of joint stereo, it's crazy.


The first time I heard of it (joint stereo) a few months back, it sounded like something to be avoided. I looked up what it was and found it is very similar to component vs RGB video which I am very familiar with. I no longer avoid but embrace it. I think it's the name but I don't know what would be a 'better' name.

G²

How to get rid of joint stereo

Reply #20 –
Quote from: uart on
Yes it's what we've been trying to (gently) explain to OP. I don't know why so many people are still suspicious of joint stereo, it's crazy.

Some people just like to think that what everyone else does is stupid and that they are the only enlightened ones.
elevatorladylevitateme

How to get rid of joint stereo

Reply #21 –
It appears that people are still coming across that nearly decade-old rant about the awful Joint (Intensity) Stereo implemented by the Xing encoder, where it actually combined the two channels into a pseudo-mono implementation.

The Joint-Stereo that was in Xing about 9 or 10 years ago, is vastly different than the Joint M/S Stereo that LAME (and Ogg and AAC) have been using for years.

It doesn't help that if one was to do a Google search on "joint stereo", about half of the first 20 results would argue AGAINST using it, based mostly on pre-2002 information.  Once again, the Joint (Intensity) Stereo used way back then IS NOT the Joint M/S Stereo used by LAME, Ogg, and AAC.

Joint M/S Stereo > Standard L/R Stereo >>> Joint Intensity Stereo in the vast majority of cases.




EDITED for grammatical purposes.

How to get rid of joint stereo

Reply #22 –
Quote from: Glenn Gundlach on
The first time I heard of it (joint stereo) a few months back, it sounded like something to be avoided. I looked up what it was and found it is very similar to component vs RGB video which I am very familiar with.

That's actually a pretty good analogy. It would be even better if there were a system that switched between component and RGB on a frame-by-frame basis depending on which resulted in the better picture.

How to get rid of joint stereo

Reply #23 –
If in doubt => ABX

Period.
Can't wait for a HD-AAC encoder :P

How to get rid of joint stereo

Reply #24 –
Quote from: pdq on
Quote from: Glenn Gundlach on
The first time I heard of it (joint stereo) a few months back, it sounded like something to be avoided. I looked up what it was and found it is very similar to component vs RGB video which I am very familiar with.

That's actually a pretty good analogy. It would be even better if there were a system that switched between component and RGB on a frame-by-frame basis depending on which resulted in the better picture.


Until the bandwidth of the components is limited, there is no difference between component and RGB as the transcoding is lossless. It's just a lot easier to manipulate levels and saturation in component than RGB

G²