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Topic: iPod playing lossless vs CD player (Read 30982 times) previous topic - next topic
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iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Hello, I'm in the market for a cd player and I'm interested in their sound quality compared to an iPod.

In general terms, how expensive do you think the cd player has to be to outperform an iPod as a Hi Fi source. Or, put it the other way, is the iPod better as a source than cd players of which price range?

I'd appreciate if you could give examples of specific models and your opinions.

To be more clear, when I refer as "iPod as source" I refer to a recent iPod (especially the iPod Classic) in a good quality dock (for example the Denon  ASD1R or Arcam rDock) playing Apple Lossless songs. The cable shouldn't make any difference since both the cd player and the dock use the same 2xRCA to 2xRCA cable (except for cd players which use XLR connectors).

Many thanks!

iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Reply #1 –
Your CD player might have a better DAC, but otherwise, its the same.

iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Reply #2 –
Quote from: Mike Giacomelli on
Your CD player might have a better DAC, but otherwise, its the same.

Hi. Thanks for your reply!
Do you have both, so that you can give a comparison? Also, could you give some examples of some models you've listened to?
Thanks.

iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Reply #3 –
Quote from: bf2008 on
Quote from: Mike Giacomelli on

Your CD player might have a better DAC, but otherwise, its the same.

Hi. Thanks for your reply!
Do you have both, so that you can give a comparison?


I'm not so good at guessing what CD player you own, so no.

Quote from: bf2008 on
Also, could you give some examples of some models you've listened to?


I don't even remember the last CD player I listened to.  Probably sometime in the late 90s.

iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Reply #4 –
It's unlikely you'd hear a difference between the two. Even if you did, are you willing to give up the convenience of having all your music in a small, easy to navigate player?

iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Reply #5 –
Quote from: twostar on
It's unlikely you'd hear a difference between the two. Even if you did, are you willing to give up the convenience of having all your music in a small, easy to navigate player?


Good point! But my priority is audio quality (given a certain budget). Hence if for similar money a cd player can sound better I go cd player all the way!

iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Reply #6 –
First, I'd be surprised if most CD players in the less than $300-$400 range have a better DAC than the IPOD itself.  One approach you might consider for a home system is the Wadia iTransport. This should be released any time now. This is a high end company although the transport is one of their cheaper offerings (the ipod transport is $349, the company's CD players/DACs are more like $14,000). The nice thing about this is that it delivers the digital signal out of an iPod, bypassing the IPOD's DAC.  You can then send this digital signal to a good DAC and then on to your preamp/amp.  But this wouldn't be very useful unless you are planning to add your own external DAC.  The analog outputs of the wadia ARE using the IPOD DAC. Only the digital outputs of the WADIA bypass the IPOD DAC.

http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2008/010708wadia/
edit:  i just found this picture googling for the wadia...I certainly don't endorse the discussion references to "$2,500 cables", etc. Does give me a laugh though!

Personally, I use an old laptop connected to a USB harddrive with music files (running fb2k) >> SPDIF cable >> Benchmark DAC >> home stereo. If I didn't do this, I would definitely consider using the wadia iTransport in place of the computer.  The squeezebox approach is also a possibility for home use.

p.s. On my home system, I can't ABX mp3 (lame -v2) music played from my IPOD (through standard Apple dock connector) versus the same music played from original CD on a Sony CD player through same system.  I'm interested in quality too, but as anyone can learn on this forum, price does not equal quality. My only reason for using something other than the IPOD at home as the transport, is that I can't fit my entire digital  collection on a 160gb ipod.

iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Reply #7 –
Quote from: garym on
First, I'd be surprised if most CD players in the less than $300-$400 range have a better DAC than the IPOD itself.  One approach you might consider for a home system is the Wadia iTransport. This should be released any time now. This is a high end company although the transport is one of their cheaper offerings (the ipod transport is $349, the company's CD players/DACs are more like $14,000). The nice thing about this is that it delivers the digital signal out of an iPod, bypassing the IPOD's DAC.  You can then send this digital signal to a good DAC and then on to your preamp/amp.  But this wouldn't be very useful unless you are planning to add your own external DAC.  The analog outputs of the wadia ARE using the IPOD DAC. Only the digital outputs of the WADIA bypass the IPOD DAC.

http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2008/010708wadia/
edit:  i just found this picture googling for the wadia...I certainly don't endorse the discussion references to "$2,500 cables", etc. Does give me a laugh though!

Personally, I use an old laptop connected to a USB harddrive with music files (running fb2k) >> SPDIF cable >> Benchmark DAC >> home stereo. If I didn't do this, I would definitely consider using the wadia iTransport in place of the computer.  The squeezebox approach is also a possibility for home use.

p.s. On my home system, I can't ABX mp3 (lame -v2) music played from my IPOD (through standard Apple dock connector) versus the same music played from original CD on a Sony CD player through same system.  I'm interested in quality too, but as anyone can learn on this forum, price does not equal quality. My only reason for using something other than the IPOD at home as the transport, is that I can't fit my entire digital  collection on a 160gb ipod.



Hi. Thanks for your reply. I've read about the wadia itransport, and although I think it's quite a good idea, and some may find it useful, I think it misses the point. I think the idea is to get the best audio quality out of a certain budget. If you add ipod plus wadia itransport plus dac converter you're already spending quite a lot, and in that case you could get a high end cd player. Your dac costs in the uk around £700. Hence the whole package will cost more than £1000. Do you think in this case this system would sound better than a £1000 cd player? Anyway, I'm looking more for simpler solutions. Maybe one day apple will release an ipod with digital out (esp now with the move to non drm music) and then ipod+dac could be a great idea.

Also, why do you say you can't compare music from your ipod to that one from your cd player? That would be an interesting comparison.

iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Reply #8 –
Quote from: bf2008 on
Also, why do you say you can't compare music from your ipod to that one from your cd player? That would be an interesting comparison.


I'm not saying it is not "possible" to compare my IPOD to CD player on home stereo. I'm saying that when I do a blind test comparison of the two sources, I am NOT able to detect which source is playing. Thus, for me personally, I would not lose "quality" in simply playing my IPOD (with its internal DAC) through my home stereo.

I do in fact keep my CDs archived as FLAC files and do play those through my home system (through the benchmark DAC). But this is only because I have them, not because I can detect a difference between these files and mp3 (lame -v2).  And the reason I use these digital versions rather than the CDs themselves (with a high-end transport) is that I like the convenience of having 5,000+ CDs available at the click of a mouse, searchable, etc.

EDIT:  p.s.  for the same cost, I'd be surprised if you'll find a CD player that would out perform a digital solution like an IPOD (particularly if using lossless files, to the extent that your ears can detect a difference in lossy vs lossless).  Don't think that just because a CD player is larger that it has any better DAC inside.  Money spent on speakers rather than a several thousand dollar CD player is probably a much better investment for your sound quality.

iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Reply #9 –
Quote from: garym on
Quote from: bf2008 on

Also, why do you say you can't compare music from your ipod to that one from your cd player? That would be an interesting comparison.


I'm not saying it is not "possible" to compare my IPOD to CD player on home stereo. I'm saying that when I do a blind test comparison of the two sources, I am NOT able to detect which source is playing. Thus, for me personally, I would not lose "quality" in simply playing my IPOD (with its internal DAC) through my home stereo.

I do in fact keep my CDs archived as FLAC files and do play those through my home system (through the benchmark DAC). But this is only because I have them, not because I can detect a difference between these files and mp3 (lame -v2).  And the reason I use these digital versions rather than the CDs themselves (with a high-end transport) is that I like the convenience of having 5,000+ CDs available at the click of a mouse, searchable, etc.

EDIT:  p.s.  for the same cost, I'd be surprised if you'll find a CD player that would out perform a digital solution like an IPOD (particularly if using lossless files, to the extent that your ears can detect a difference in lossy vs lossless).  Don't think that just because a CD player is larger that it has any better DAC inside.  Money spent on speakers rather than a several thousand dollar CD player is probably a much better investment for your sound quality.



Hi! Thanks for your reply! Very clear too!
So, which cd player do you have then, that is undistinguishable from the ipod?
I think I'll stick with my Marantz cd player in that case too, and forget about the ipod.

iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Reply #10 –
Sounds like you're happy with your current cd player. One other thing to note: currently this thread has been viewed 330 times and not one post where someone can abx an ipod and a high end cd player.

Anyone?

iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Reply #11 –
Not that it is really that relevant, but to answer OP's question, my CD player is a 2 or 3 year old Sony consumer quality player (nothing special).  Can't recall the particular version. Again, nothing special.  And I simply never use it. Frankly, I'd be shocked if I could ABX my FLAC files through the Benchmark DAC against even a $20,000 CD Transport.

iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Reply #12 –
Quote from: twostar on
Sounds like you're happy with your current cd player. One other thing to note: currently this thread has been viewed 330 times and not one post where someone can abx an ipod and a high end cd player.

Anyone?


Great post!
It's been viewed many times, yes, that's true, but that's because I think we're dealing with quite important subjects, which test the whole of the audio industry, at least as digital sources go.

I think we're dealing with mainly two things:
1. I you can't tell an ipod playing lossless from a cd/dvd combo, why would you upgrade to an ipod if you're just concerned about sound quality?

2. and then, if you can't tell an ipod from those high end (read very expensive) cd players, what's the point of those cd players, then? And if you take point 1 into account too, what's the point of these expensive cd players anyway, if they basically sound the same as the cd/dvd combos we all have?

So, all those people interested in this thread too, could you post your views? Do you have a cd player and an ipod? How do they compare in terms of sound quality (playing lossless and through a dock)?

Cheers!

iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Reply #13 –
Quote from: bf2008 on
1. I you can't tell an ipod playing lossless from a cd/dvd combo, why would you upgrade to an ipod if you're just concerned about sound quality?


There is much more to having your music on a portable device than simply music quality. If portability has no interest for you, then you don't need an IPOD.  I wouldn't call an IPOD an "upgrade"...just a different medium with different characteristics, including portability.

Why do people pay $20k for a CD player? I don't know. Why do some pay $5,000 for a 1.5 meter cable to connect said CD player to something else. I really, really don't know. Then again, my wife doesn't understand why I need so much music. Her point is, "how could you really listen to more than maybe 20 CDs that really matter."  My answer is that if you ask that question, you'd never understand my answer.

iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Reply #14 –
Quote from: garym on
Quote from: bf2008 on

1. I you can't tell an ipod playing lossless from a cd/dvd combo, why would you upgrade to an ipod if you're just concerned about sound quality?


There is much more to having your music on a portable device than simply music quality. If portability has not interest for you, then you don't need an IPOD.  I wouldn't call an IPOD an "upgrade"...just a different medium with different characteristics, including portability.

Why do people pay $20k for a CD player? I don't know. Why do some pay $5,000 for a 1.5 meter cable to connect said CD player to something else. I really, really don't know. Then again, my wife doesn't understand why I need so much music. Her point is, "how could you really listen to more than maybe 20 CDs that really matter."  My answer is that if you ask that question, you'd never understand my answer.



Great comment!
I know about the portability of the ipod, it's obviously without question, but I don't really listen to music on the go, so I'm not so interested in that. Besides, if you want portability, then an ipod nano would be better, and then you don't really need lossless if you're using earbuds, etc, etc. Another advantage of the ipod, and this applies also for listening at home, is the ability to make playlists very easily, which is impossible with a cd player.

Also like your second comment. Why would people pay $20k? I don't know either. But would it be worth to pay $2k? I'm more interested in this question.

And also, about the number of cds, hehe, just the Beethoven sonatas already fill almost 20 cds, so I'd really agree with you on that one!

iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Reply #15 –
I guess the lack of ABX results is because they are a somewhat complicated.

It's very easy to test different audio files using your favorite ABX tool.

Testing equipment is not that easy.
- you need to level match the different inputs
- to switch sources you probably need a second person (and it's not double-blind)

An alternative would be recording the output of you're CD player/iPod and then ABX the audio files. But then the recording setup is also part of the test.


A question about those iPod docks: Do the simply use the analog out of the iPod? Or something more advanced, like the dock has a builtin DAC and the audio data is digitally transferred to the dock?

iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Reply #16 –
Quote from: caligae on
I guess the lack of ABX results is because they are a somewhat complicated.

It's very easy to test different audio files using your favorite ABX tool.

Testing equipment is not that easy.
- you need to level match the different inputs
- to switch sources you probably need a second person (and it's not double-blind)

An alternative would be recording the output of you're CD player/iPod and then ABX the audio files. But then the recording setup is also part of the test.


1. Hi. What's an ABX test and an ABX tool?

2. Well, I have my reservations for your second comment. Testing equipment is not easy, true, but in the end the whole purpose of getting better equipment is if you can notice the difference. If you can't tell for yourself whether your ipod or your cd player sound better (in case you have both), then it means you could do with any of them!

3. yes, I agree that adding a recording step in the experiment is not a good idea.

Quote from: caligae on
A question about those iPod docks: Do the simply use the analog out of the iPod? Or something more advanced, like the dock has a builtin DAC and the audio data is digitally transferred to the dock?


There're  many ipod docks.
1. The entry level apple ipod dock, with 3.5mm stereo output
2. The denon, marantz, yamaha, pioneer, etc, with rca outputs, and which sell around £80 here
3. The Arcam rDock, with rca outputs, and slightly more soffisticated, for £120
all these still extract an analogue signal from the ipod, but as they get it from the dock connector and not the headphone jack they get a better signal (I guess it doesn't go through the headphone amp either, not sure). Also, with the docks with rca outputs you can use better connecting cables.
4. the Wadia itransport, which extracts a digital signal from the ipod. This is obviously the ultimate in sound quality, but it seems it doesn't even have a DAC convertor, so then you'll need one of those too. In the end you would have spent £1000 on getting music out of your ipod, which makes me think whether it wasn't better just to get one of the other docks for when you want the convenience of the ipod, and a cd player for when you want the best sound quality, and also for less money in total.

iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Reply #17 –
See this (and included links) for info on an ABX test. Foobar 2000 will allow one to easily do ABX between two different sound files (e.g., FLAC and mp3).  Equipment ABX is much more complicated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABX_test
http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?ti...mponents_(List)

As far as I know, the Wadia is the only IPOD dock commercially available that actually extracts the digital signal before passing through the IPOD DAC.  All the other Docks mentioned simply pass the audio signal FROM the DAC.

iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Reply #18 –
Quote from: garym on
See this (and included links) for info on an ABX test. Foobar 2000 will allow one to easily do ABX between two different sound files (e.g., FLAC and mp3).  Equipment ABX is much more complicated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABX_test
http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?ti...mponents_(List)

As far as I know, the Wadia is the only IPOD dock commercially available that actually extracts the digital signal before passing through the IPOD DAC.  All the other Docks mentioned simply pass the audio signal FROM the DAC.



I'll have a look! Yes, exactly, only wadia gets the digital out, as I said in my post too. Would be interesting to know whether people can tell one dock apart from the other too!

iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Reply #19 –
Quote from: garym on
See this (and included links) for info on an ABX test. Foobar 2000 will allow one to easily do ABX between two different sound files (e.g., FLAC and mp3).  Equipment ABX is much more complicated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABX_test
http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?ti...mponents_(List)



The ABX test is very interesting, especially when done double blind.
Anyone could try doing this test for themselves, comparing their cd player and ipod (if they have both). And then they could publish the results here. That would be great, although it can't be done double blind since that would require special equipment and would be too involved.

Looking forward to anyone publishing their results about this issue!

iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Reply #20 –
Quote from: bf2008 on
Anyone could try doing this test for themselves, comparing their cd player and ipod (if they have both). And then they could publish the results here. That would be great, although it can't be done double blind since that would require special equipment...

I could be done double blind by recording the analogue outputs of both the CD player in question and the iPod, level matching the resulting files, and aligning the files so they start at exactly the same point.


On the whole subject of docks - I strongly believe this is another matter of chasing the least significant bit.  Unless there is a design flaw in one dock or another, the odds of you being able to audibly distinguish between them is very low.  Better to spend the time and money on speakers - the most significant bit.
Creature of habit.

iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Soap on
Quote from: bf2008 on

Anyone could try doing this test for themselves, comparing their cd player and ipod (if they have both). And then they could publish the results here. That would be great, although it can't be done double blind since that would require special equipment...

I could be done double blind by recording the analogue outputs of both the CD player in question and the iPod, level matching the resulting files, and aligning the files so they start at exactly the same point.


On the whole subject of docks - I strongly believe this is another matter of chasing the least significant bit.  Unless there is a design flaw in one dock or another, the odds of you being able to audibly distinguish between them is very low.  Better to spend the time and money on speakers - the most significant bit.


The suggestion for your double blind test is good, but then it should be done by professionals, since it involves doing the recording of a signal. I'm afraid that if one of us did it then we would be adding noise in different stages.

I agree that probably the most significant upgrade is on docks, but what I'm discussing here is the difference between sources.

Thanks.

iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Reply #22 –
Quote from: bf2008 on
Quote from: Soap on

I could be done double blind by recording the analogue outputs of both the CD player in question and the iPod, level matching the resulting files, and aligning the files so they start at exactly the same point.


The suggestion for your double blind test is good, but then it should be done by professionals, since it involves doing the recording of a signal. I'm afraid that if one of us did it then we would be adding noise in different stages.


We could try a test setup like this. E.g. compare the output of the CD player/iPod against the original.

For a more number-based evalution, I found some RMAA results of iPods here.

iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Reply #23 –
Quote from: garym on
As far as I know, the Wadia is the only IPOD dock commercially available that actually extracts the digital signal before passing through the IPOD DAC.  All the other Docks mentioned simply pass the audio signal FROM the DAC.


Can anyone else verify this? I believed that (almost) every dock worked like this, or at least those designed specifically for the iPod. I thought that was why they connected to the docking bit at the bottom rather than the headphone out?

NB I have never used a docking station or owned an iPod, so I don't claim to be any authority here...

iPod playing lossless vs CD player

Reply #24 –
Quote from: tgoose on
Quote from: garym on

As far as I know, the Wadia is the only IPOD dock commercially available that actually extracts the digital signal before passing through the IPOD DAC.  All the other Docks mentioned simply pass the audio signal FROM the DAC.


Can anyone else verify this? I believed that (almost) every dock worked like this, or at least those designed specifically for the iPod. I thought that was why they connected to the docking bit at the bottom rather than the headphone out?

NB I have never used a docking station or owned an iPod, so I don't claim to be any authority here...


Most docks, like the apple, denon, marantz, pioneer, arcam, etc, work by extracting the analogue signal through the dock connector. As far as I know, only the wadia gets the digital out.
My opinion is that apple should release next generation ipods with digital out, like all the other mac products. The wadia dock is just there to fix a flaw originally found in the ipod itself.