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Topic: iTunes + bit-perfect in Windows (Read 12109 times) previous topic - next topic
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iTunes + bit-perfect in Windows

to start for the last year I have been listening through two systems via iTunes / ALAC combination. In my computer room I have some focal speakers/sub that are fed through a e-mu 0404 usb DAC and a trends t-amp. My main living room system and kitchen systems are streamed through squeezeboxs.

I am by no means an Apple freak, but the better half and I have both become acustom to iTunes and enjoy the using the ALAC format in our portable player's as well, and everything has been smooth and enjoyable ripping and playing with dB and iTunes.

Then my audiophile friend stopped by last week and said "your not getting CD quality to your speakers using iTunes and Window's" and explained that iTunes will always run first through Window's XP kmixer, which resamples my music to 48Khz. My main purpose in switching to digital audio is the flexability and convenience, but my one requirement was I wanted the same quality as playing from a decent CD player. I thought I was good using a usb DAC and streaming via a squeezebox as the DAC's are good.

So after some research, I downloaded Foobar and played some ALAC files w/the Kearnal streaming enabled. To be honest, I couldn't really tell a difference. I "think" some of the tracks had a bit more depth, but in reality it was probably in my mind.

Does anyone have any input or personal experience in switching from iTunes to a program that doesn't utilize the kmixer? Is it worth giving up iTunes? Am I missing anything technical here or off-base?

iTunes + bit-perfect in Windows

Reply #1 –
still looking for answer's on this

I am unable to find solid evidence that playing ALAC files in iTunes by itself or through the slimserver uses the kmixer and resamples? And if it does, will it really matter switching to Foobar & kearnal streaming?

iTunes + bit-perfect in Windows

Reply #2 –
Greets.

Since noone has ventured into this potential minefield I thought Id take a gander. My opinion: Kick your "audiophile" friend to the curb. Well, not really, but dont let him ruin your listening experience.  You will not hear any audible difference using foobar or any other software musicplayer out there. The only issue using a PC with a lossless compressed audiofile is the noise coming from the computer itself. (As long as the file is properly ripped and gained if necessary).  If you were content with the sound before your friend made your audio-listening life miserable, there is no reason to change it.  If you are in doubt, do an ABX test using a CD player and your computer equipment.

I am sure you can find a lot of information on both the mixer in windows and on mac's on the forum, as well as a lot of details on DAC's and the use of computers as a form of audioplayback that will satisfy the most technically oriented people around.

Just my 2 cents.

iTunes + bit-perfect in Windows

Reply #3 –
By the way, to my knowledge your Squeezebox has an internal ALAC decoder... so Slimserver is merely passing the file to the box unaltered.

Yes, you can search for the other "issue"... but in general, if you can't tell the difference, who cares?

iTunes + bit-perfect in Windows

Reply #4 –
Quote from: grommet on
By the way, to my knowledge your Squeezebox has an internal ALAC decoder... so Slimserver is merely passing the file to the box unaltered.

Yes, you can search for the other "issue"... but in general, if you can't tell the difference, who cares?



thats the thing, I have heard both yes's and no's on it? I am not sure where in the process the kmixer kicks in and does it's stuff?

Stereophile has this article that appears to indicate that when playing iTunes 7.5, it does go through the kmixer, but there is some sort of work around. Anyone know what they are talking about?

Quote
As for Windows XP users, Rankin has several bits of advice. If you understand what "kernel-streaming" is, you probably have enough computer smarts to employ it to bypass XP's kmixer app to allow your USB DAC to communicate transparently with the standard Microsoft USB driver, with bit-transparent results. Unfortunately, this work-around doesn't work with all USB devices, and can be a complicated solution, Rankin warns. It is best not attempted by anyone who, like this writer, doesn't immediately comprehend all of its ramifications.

And for Vista? "Vista does handle audio better. People may hate it and it is a bit annoying, but it does do a better job for audio files."

iTunes + bit-perfect in Windows

Reply #5 –
The Stereophile fix is to use KernelStreaming (or ASIO) output if you are using a program that supports selecting the output device and format.  iTunes does not allow this, however, so this approach will not work for you.

Vista does indeed have better audio support than XP.  Whether or not the difference is audible on your particular system is something only you can determine.

iTunes + bit-perfect in Windows

Reply #6 –
Quote from: scubasteve on
still looking for answer's on this

I am unable to find solid evidence that playing ALAC files in iTunes by itself or through the slimserver uses the kmixer and resamples? And if it does, will it really matter switching to Foobar & kearnal streaming?


I'v not seen ks plugin for iTunes, but with VAC and GraphEdit it's possible to make things right

iTunes + bit-perfect in Windows

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Scrith on
The Stereophile fix is to use KernelStreaming (or ASIO) output if you are using a program that supports selecting the output device and format.  iTunes does not allow this, however, so this approach will not work for you.

Vista does indeed have better audio support than XP.  Whether or not the difference is audible on your particular system is something only you can determine.


Okay, what we have: a bit perfect VAC, selected by default so by iTunes, and the transport to ks of the real sound card -- graphedit. Then why you tell us that this will not work? It works for me very well.

iTunes + bit-perfect in Windows

Reply #8 –
Not for iTunes 7, but even iTunes 8 a pair from VAC and GraphEdit works for KS.

iTunes + bit-perfect in Windows

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Iim on
Quote from: Scrith on
The Stereophile fix is to use KernelStreaming (or ASIO) output if you are using a program that supports selecting the output device and format.  iTunes does not allow this, however, so this approach will not work for you.

Vista does indeed have better audio support than XP.  Whether or not the difference is audible on your particular system is something only you can determine.


Okay, what we have: a bit perfect VAC, selected by default so by iTunes, and the transport to ks of the real sound card -- graphedit. Then why you tell us that this will not work? It works for me very well.



Wow ... just seen this after a Google Search.
Is somebody saying that they ARE achieving a bit perfect output from iTunes using Virtual Audio Cable ? Is this easy to setup ... is it DEFINATELY bit perfect ?
Any workarounds for use in Vista ?

Regards,

Matt.

iTunes + bit-perfect in Windows

Reply #10 –
Interesting that this thread should resurface as I was just messing around with udial.wav (from this thread) on my Mac mini this weekend.

Under both OS X 10.4.10 and Windows XP SP2, through either the onboard SigmaTel sound or my M-Audio Transit USB, there are zero artifacts (listening through my Audio Technica ATH-M40 headphones), using either foobar2k on XP (with no resampling) or iTunes on both OSes.  The Audigy 2 in my HTPC (running Win2K SP4), OTOH, releases the aliens (see above thread) in full force - enabling the PPHS resampler in fb2k sends them back home.

While this doesn't prove that OS X and XP are capable of providing "bit-perfect" output to the sound output device, it seems like a distinct possibility as I would be surprised if both OSes were performing transparent resampling.
"Not sure what the question is, but the answer is probably no."

iTunes + bit-perfect in Windows

Reply #11 –
Quote from: mixminus1 on
While this doesn't prove that OS X and XP are capable of providing "bit-perfect" output to the sound output device, it seems like a distinct possibility as I would be surprised if both OSes were performing transparent resampling.


Why would you be surprised if a modern OS did transparent resampling?

It is true that there has been a lot of audibly detectable resampling in the past. The older versions of the SBLive! and a number of commercial audio production programs, some that a few people may still be using, were audiblly non-tranaparent.

Much of this was driven by the absence of CPU power to do it right in those days. Life on a 386SX is vastly different than on modern quad-core processors! ;-)

That was then, and this is now.

I think that anybody who has doubts should do the appropriate listening tests and/or measurements.  The measurements can be easily done using freeware such as the Audio Rightmark.

Furthermore, anybody who finds some modern audio product that is colored IMO has a moral responsiblity to blow their whistle.

I don't think it is right to presume that something is coloring the sound when it isn't and not know the exact reason how, or why.

iTunes + bit-perfect in Windows

Reply #12 –
Thanks, Arnold, good point(s).
"Not sure what the question is, but the answer is probably no."

iTunes + bit-perfect in Windows

Reply #13 –

Okay ..

So I've got Virtual Audio Cable running fine ... the audio repeater and control panel clearly show that my iTunes audio is being directed via this route.

But ... well - how am I getting a bit perfect output ?? -  is the audio repeater sending the audio directly to my audio card without any interference from the Windows audio engine ?

Surely - with the cable selected as a default the Windows audio engine is playing with the data before it hit's the cable anyway - like it would if my audio card was selected as default.

I'm probably being thick but, I don't see what advantage this is bringing to the table. How do I know for sure I'm bypassing Windows audio engine.

Does the maker of VAC reside on these forums ?

Matt.

iTunes + bit-perfect in Windows

Reply #14 –

Can certainly see it's running real time ... opening and closing windows results in a small audible gap in the audio ..
But bit perfect ??
Can't really get to listen as it says "trial" every few seconds ... not buying till I know what I'm looking at.