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Topic: Center Speaker Pointless? (Read 4767 times) previous topic - next topic
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Center Speaker Pointless?

I've bought a set of speakers to try out a home theater system (5.1).  The center speaker was extremely expensive compared to the front speakers (I bought the one of the same brand that logically goes with these front speakers).

Anyway, I plug everything in and the center speaker is very quiet compared to the front speakers.  It actually seems pointless for both music and movies.  I'm wondering if other people have experienced something similar or if they find the center speaker is important.

FYI, I ran out of speaker wire and was running the system without a center speaker before....adding the center speaker added absolutely nothing to the stereo system from what I could tell.  It does not emphasize things like voices which is the intent.  It also doesn't seem to add anything in terms of spacial effects.

Any comments would be appreciated.

Center Speaker Pointless?

Reply #1 –
Read teh manual for your amp.  You should be able to adjust individual channel gains.
"You can fight without ever winning, but never win without a fight."  Neil Peart  'Resist'

Center Speaker Pointless?

Reply #2 –
I've actually wondered myself why the mono signal of the center speaker couldn't simply be played the the front left and right speakers. I understand the function of the center speaker, and its application in a cinema environment, but I don't see why it's impotant in a home theater.

I must have overlooked something.

Center Speaker Pointless?

Reply #3 –
Quote
Read teh manual for your amp.  You should be able to adjust individual channel gains.
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Yeah I'm going to play with the settings a little more but I think the max change per speaker is +10 dB which may not be much considering where this center channel is starting from!

The center speaker was quite expensive and I'm contemplating what I should put the money into instead.  I believe to buy a truly dolby digital decoder built into a DVD player makes a DVD player go from dirt cheap to a significant amount.  Back in the day when DVD players were ~$300 in Canada I recall the ones with decoders were over $1000.  I'm wondering if I bought one with the proper decoder if it would make the surround effect really profound.

My front speakers are Bose 301 right now.  So many other speaker sets sound tinny on the upper spectrum of the mid-range sound.  Bose sounds too throaty, probably lacking the crispness I want in that upper-middle spectrum.  I solve this problem on my other system by using an equalizer to boost it.  On this system that doesn't work since I'm using an optical audio cable to go from the receiver to the DVD player.  I think to do this same kind of thing I would need to go with a pre-amp and enter a whole new ball game.

Center Speaker Pointless?

Reply #4 –
Do yourself a favor and either buy or borrow a Decibel meter from Radio Shack.  Use it to set the levels for your speakers.  If you want to be absolutely fancy, set them for the listening position *you* will be sitting in.

Radio Shack dB meter

Center Speaker Pointless?

Reply #5 –
Quote
Quote
Read teh manual for your amp.  You should be able to adjust individual channel gains.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=343580"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yeah I'm going to play with the settings a little more but I think the max change per speaker is +10 dB which may not be much considering where this center channel is starting from!

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But it could be significant if the R+L were already at, say, +6, and the center is -6.
"You can fight without ever winning, but never win without a fight."  Neil Peart  'Resist'

Center Speaker Pointless?

Reply #6 –
If you are playing pure stereo, there is no center channel!  Stereo is by definition two channels.  If you are playing 5.1, there will be a center channel, and as previously described it will be a blend of R+L to anchor sound to the screen when you move  off-center.  Without it the sounds "seems" to drift over to the side you are on when you are off-center.  Again, there is no center channel for stereo.  If your amp creates one that is different. 
Nov schmoz kapop.

Center Speaker Pointless?

Reply #7 –
Quote
The center speaker was quite expensive and I'm contemplating what I should put the money into instead.  I believe to buy a truly dolby digital decoder built into a DVD player makes a DVD player go from dirt cheap to a significant amount.  Back in the day when DVD players were ~$300 in Canada I recall the ones with decoders were over $1000.  I'm wondering if I bought one with the proper decoder if it would make the surround effect really profound.

My front speakers are Bose 301 right now.  So many other speaker sets sound tinny on the upper spectrum of the mid-range sound.  Bose sounds too throaty, probably lacking the crispness I want in that upper-middle spectrum.  I solve this problem on my other system by using an equalizer to boost it.  On this system that doesn't work since I'm using an optical audio cable to go from the receiver to the DVD player.  I think to do this same kind of thing I would need to go with a pre-amp and enter a whole new ball game.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=343613"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Am I reading this right that you don't have decoding going in your amp, and you're using a digital optical cable from the DVD to the amp?

In this case there's no way you're going to get any center channel since nothing is producing it.  The DVD player, even if it can decode surround sound, doesn't do it when using a digital optical or digital coax cable.  Your amp needs to be doing the decoding in this case.  Does your amp decode dolby digital or DTS?  Does it indicate that it detects a DD or DTS signal?

Center Speaker Pointless?

Reply #8 –
Quote
Am I reading this right that you don't have decoding going in your amp, and you're using a digital optical cable from the DVD to the amp?

In this case there's no way you're going to get any center channel since nothing is producing it.  The DVD player, even if it can decode surround sound, doesn't do it when using a digital optical or digital coax cable.  Your amp needs to be doing the decoding in this case.  Does your amp decode dolby digital or DTS?  Does it indicate that it detects a DD or DTS signal?
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All those Dolby buzz words do appear in the documentation.

One problem I have is that most of the pre-set configurations you can use for sound make it sound worse.  While using the Dolby setting might activate the center speaker, it could make it sound overall like room is a tin can (awkward hollow echo sounds).  I'm finding the basic "7 channel" setting is best (note I have only 5 speakers set up).

I think what I need to do is clarify exactly what my DVD player is capable of.  As I said, I'm a few years out of date but I recall a true digital decoder as expensive while the mainstream type components kind of faked it by simulating it the best it could.

If it helps, my amplifier is a Yamaha HTR 5860 model and my DVD player is a Hitachi DV-P415 (about 3 years old I think, was one of the first ones to play MP3s)

Center Speaker Pointless?

Reply #9 –
This is ironic because I'd consider the center speaker the absolute most important in this type of setup.  As previously stated, you need to make sure that you're running some type of digital connection from your DVD player to your receiver (either optical or coaxial).  I would recommend against using any of the preset surround modes, I've found that they generally sound terrible.  On Sony receivers, all you have to do is press 'auto format decode' and that somehow turns off any preset modes.  Since you're new at this, I thought that I'd mention to make sure your receiver is set to 'small' if you have smaller, cube type speakers, or 'large' if your speakers are full range, that will make a pretty big difference.  Also, make sure Dolby Digital and DTS are turned 'on' in the DVD player menus, otherwise it won't output multi-channel sound.

Center Speaker Pointless?

Reply #10 –
Quote
This is ironic because I'd consider the center speaker the absolute most important in this type of setup.  As previously stated, you need to make sure that you're running some type of digital connection from your DVD player to your receiver (either optical or coaxial).  I would recommend against using any of the preset surround modes, I've found that they generally sound terrible.  On Sony receivers, all you have to do is press 'auto format decode' and that somehow turns off any preset modes.  Since you're new at this, I thought that I'd mention to make sure your receiver is set to 'small' if you have smaller, cube type speakers, or 'large' if your speakers are full range, that will make a pretty big difference.  Also, make sure Dolby Digital and DTS are turned 'on' in the DVD player menus, otherwise it won't output multi-channel sound.
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Thanks I'll check out all these things you mentioned.  I definitely am using an optical digital audio cable.

Where I'm a little uncertain what to expect through that center speaker is when I'm playing a simple Music CD.  If the source is only 2 channel do I expect to hear basically nothing from the front speaker or do I expect there to be a decent about of sound because Dolby modes will determine a way to put this sound through the front speaker as part of it's "magic".

Center Speaker Pointless?

Reply #11 –
If your only using a 2 channel stereo cd( a "normal" everyday cd) Turn the reciever to "stereo" mode, IMO it sounds better that way. If you have a DVD in the player that is marked either "DTS" or "Dolby Digital" Enably the Dolby Digital feature of your reciever. THAT assumes you DO have Dolby Digital as an option. You see you must have a means to decode the signal, weather that chip resides in your reciever or DVD player(or either one) is the question you need to know.

Center Speaker Pointless?

Reply #12 –
For stereo, you better send it in the right/left speakers. Surround processing of stereo material is ugly.
For multi-channel material (ac3, dts, ...), the centre channel is VERY important. It makes some sound (like voices, snare drums, kiks, punch, …) more detached from the rest of audio image.

Center Speaker Pointless?

Reply #13 –
Yesterday I decided to upgrade the subwoofer to a Velodyne 10", in addition to the bass I gained an LFE port which was absent on the other subwoofer.  It seems that this LFE port is making a bit of a difference to the overall sound played through the front speakers and center speaker on the plain old 7 channel mode.  Volume to the center speaker has almost doubled plus some of the mid-range is a little crisper it seems (partly addressed one of my concerns with these Bose 301 before).  Somehow the receiver handling the crossover setting for the sub-woofer seems to have improved sound a lot.

yahknow1 and marcan,

I tried playing with those Dolby modes and determined 2 things:

1.  For the couple of good things I gain from the Dolby settings on the stereo, I always lose something as well.  I get problems where the sound is less full like I am in a cave (to be honest the exact opposite effect I'm expecting, isn't Dolby supposed to make a better surround effect)

2.  I have a really weak home collection of DVDs for doing this kind of testing (things like Disney movies just don't quite cut it!).  I tend to rent movies once instead of purchasing movies and playing them over and over.  I think it would do me well to get some DVDs with good effects, lots of fight scenes or action scenes to get a good feel for the sound modes.  If you have some movies that you think are great candidates for testing please pass them along (hopefully a decent movie so I'm not wasting my money if I buy it or rent it!).

Center Speaker Pointless?

Reply #14 –
Velodyne. Goood. I got thye CHT-15. Wonderfull, very musical.

1. Dolby effects (and generally surround effects) on stereo material is not a good idea.

2. "The House of Flying Daggers" is very impressive.

Center Speaker Pointless?

Reply #15 –
After some experimentation I have have that most Dolby sources sound better with Yamaha 7 channel mode than the Dolby modes on my Yamaha Receiver.

I believe it is a matter of personal preference at work here.  I have found the occasional movie where the Dolby surround is better, but probably 20% of the time.  My dad's hearing is obviously a little less acute and he likes the Dolby surround a little better in some cases.  The other thing I'm finding is that the Dolby modes seem to work better when you are further forward in the room (ie. more than the 2-3 feet ahead of the rear speakers recommended in documentation).

I find it interesting that most people are saying music sounds much better on 2 channel stereo mode.  I find the 7 channel mode actually does a nice job of pushing some sound to the rear speakers.  When I turn it to 2 channel mode the music just doesn't seem to fill the room in the same way.

I'm contemplating attaching my equalizer to see how 2 channel mode sounds in analog mode with some levels adjusted to my liking.  Will be interesting to see if I hate going back to analog because of the added noise or if the benefits of the equalizer overcome the digital vs. analog issues.

Center Speaker Pointless?

Reply #16 –
The center channel is one of the oldest innovations in movie theater sound, its where all the dialog goes so that everyone in the theater can more clearly hear and understand it. This is how the artists that make the movies intend the sound to be, to create the best experience for movie viewers. If all the dialog isn't coming out of the center speaker, or most of it, then chance are good you need to tell your reciever that you have a center channel and want to use it. OTOH for normal stereo music you should not notice any sound from the center speaker, otherwise its set too high, or somehow incorrectly.

You have just gone to a fine chef, told him to do his best, then without tasting poured on ketchup and pepper and garlic powder, and find the results less than spectacular. Follow the manual for your system, turn off ALL the special effects, set all the tone controls to neutral, and make sure you have the correct basic settings. Give it at least a week for you to get used to the changed sound.

The point of all the equipment is to enjoy music and movies, if you "notice" some effect, subwoofer, surround, etc., most likely it is set incorrectly, because it is supposed to enhance the experience, not distract from it.

Center Speaker Pointless?

Reply #17 –
One problem with the center speaker is finding a good spot in the room to put it.  What I need to do is build a shelf just above my tv or something.

The next setting I need to play with is my subwoofer setting.  Right now the subwoofer won't turn on if I set the LFE only to play through the sub.  It will only work if I let LFE play front and sub.  Then, there's a setting on the center speaker to divert any bass ranges to the LFE channel.  I'm guessing something isn't quite set up right here and that could affect the center speaker.

Overall things are sounding better now.  The little microphone used to tune the system makes a few bad judgements.  If the speaker is low or on the floor it needs to bump up the sound more aggressively.  My surround speakers are at a higher height and from the back of the room are actually drowning out some sounds from the front (historically my experience with surround speakers was that they were always too quiet).  Putting the center speaker at a better height and adding a couple of dB to it's loudness would probably showcase it better.  Finding the right spot for the subwoofer is going to be hard, currently I'm thinking of moving my TV forward by 6 inches to cram it behind the TV.  At least that is relatively central to the room.  Front speakers need some proper stands to get them at the proper height (also, the speaker boxes are my current stands and don't make for attractive speaker stands!)