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Topic: which discman is the best (Read 14655 times) previous topic - next topic
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which discman is the best

I'm looking for disman (playback of mp3 isn't needed, because it will raise cost of the device), which must have good sound quality (good D/A Converter), antiskip (i think 45 seconds will be ok) and line-out output. what discman will you recommend for me?

which discman is the best

Reply #1 –
From what i know, antiskip isn't good for sound quality, CD players with antiskip systems read the audio at speeds faster than 1X to compress and store the audio on onboard memory before actually reaching the output stage, some player manuals even admit this, my panasonic CD player (no mp3) manual says: "Because of the no-skip antiskip system, audio is compressed."

Sometimes the simpler the system and features, the less processed the sound is.
we was young an' full of beans

which discman is the best

Reply #2 –
Quote
I'm looking for disman (playback of mp3 isn't needed, because it will raise cost of the device), which must have good sound quality (good D/A Converter), antiskip (i think 45 seconds will be ok) and line-out output. what discman will you recommend for me?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=316029"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I was looking for the same thing in late 2003, and after much consideration I found the highest quality construction portable CD player to be the Sony D-FS601. It's a 2003 or 2004 model, but can still be found on ebay from time to time. It's build quality is without par, IMO: heavy reinforced plastic, thick alloy clasp with roller bearings, silicone seals on all joints and switches to make it water resistant, and the drive system looks to be very rugged from the heft-look of the parts used. It does not have a line out, but it's performance is just fine -- I have never noticed any distortion, noise or other problems, and I use it with a very high sensitive headphone: Sony MDR-CD3000. It has a switch inside the case that lets you choose compressed anti-skip mode or uncompressed[less buffer time in this mode]. However, the player is very difficult to skip even in the uncompressed mode. If you are interested, I can take some pictures of the construction detail and e-mail them to you, if that's needed. Just give me an email address or PM me.

-Chris

which discman is the best

Reply #3 –
Some of the Sony D-NE series, I think 300 and up, are said to be good. I haven't tried them myself.

which discman is the best

Reply #4 –
Quote
From what i know, antiskip isn't good for sound quality, CD players with antiskip systems read the audio at speeds faster than 1X to compress and store the audio on onboard memory before actually reaching the output stage, some player manuals even admit this, my panasonic CD player (no mp3) manual says: "Because of the no-skip antiskip system, audio is compressed."
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=316094"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Just out of interest, in what way is the sound "compressed"?
Proverb for Paranoids: "If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers."
-T. Pynchon (Gravity's Rainbow)

which discman is the best

Reply #5 –
Quote
Quote
From what i know, antiskip isn't good for sound quality, CD players with antiskip systems read the audio at speeds faster than 1X to compress and store the audio on onboard memory before actually reaching the output stage, some player manuals even admit this, my panasonic CD player (no mp3) manual says: "Because of the no-skip antiskip system, audio is compressed."
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=316094"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Just out of interest, in what way is the sound "compressed"?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=316114"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


It may not be - I have a pretty old Sony that buffers audio stream for the anti-skip (a mere 3 seconds on mine) but it doesnt compress it as far as I know. I'm not familiar enough with newer players to say whether they do or not but I'd be interested to know what compression method is used if they do.

Edit: typos

which discman is the best

Reply #6 –
Quote
Quote
From what i know, antiskip isn't good for sound quality, CD players with antiskip systems read the audio at speeds faster than 1X to compress and store the audio on onboard memory before actually reaching the output stage, some player manuals even admit this, my panasonic CD player (no mp3) manual says: "Because of the no-skip antiskip system, audio is compressed."
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=316094"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Just out of interest, in what way is the sound "compressed"?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=316114"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



Simple: its lets the manufacturers use smaller chips for the anti-skip buffer. 40 seconds of PCM audio is over 6MB, but 40 seconds of 4:1 ADPCM would fit in 1/4 the space, or 1.65MB.

which discman is the best

Reply #7 –
Quote
Quote
Quote
From what i know, antiskip isn't good for sound quality, CD players with antiskip systems read the audio at speeds faster than 1X to compress and store the audio on onboard memory before actually reaching the output stage, some player manuals even admit this, my panasonic CD player (no mp3) manual says: "Because of the no-skip antiskip system, audio is compressed."
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=316094"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Just out of interest, in what way is the sound "compressed"?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=316114"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



Simple: its lets the manufacturers use smaller chips for the anti-skip buffer. 40 seconds of PCM audio is over 6MB, but 40 seconds of 4:1 ADPCM would fit in 1/4 the space, or 1.65MB.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=316117"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


ADPCM? What's that (pardon my ignorance)? Wouldn't compression add to the complexity and negate the cost benefit of lower-capacity RAM chips? Presumably not if they bother to do it...

which discman is the best

Reply #8 –
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ADPCM? What's that (pardon my ignorance)? Wouldn't compression add to the complexity and negate the cost benefit of lower-capacity RAM chips? Presumably not if they bother to do it...
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=316119"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Adaptive Differential Pulse-Code Modulation. DPCM is similar to LPCM but the PCM values represent only the difference between the current sample and the last sample, which reduces bit rate by about 25%. Adaptive DPCM manipulates the quantization stage to further reduce size, although this results in a lower SNR due to increased quantization noise.

As for players, try to avoid players where long life playback is their main selling point. Since the devices have to draw so little current (to get 40+ hours out of a couple of AAAs for example), they usually feed the DACs with less than their nominal voltage (the voltage specified by the manufacturer). This means at high volume the DAC will start clipping. Not a problem if you're using an amp (just set the volume to a low level and use the amp to compensate), but a big problem running headphones directly from the player (especially high impedence headphones because you'll have to have the volume level higher).

which discman is the best

Reply #9 –
If sound quality is an issue.
Take with you, your favoritt music cd's.
And your prefered headphones... this is important.
And listen to all the players....
It is huge diffrens between almost equaly priced products from same manufacturer. Also less priced is sometimes sounding better...

  Shocking!!!!

which discman is the best

Reply #10 –
Quote
If sound quality is an issue.
Take with you, your favoritt music cd's.
And your prefered headphones... this is important.
And listen to all the players....


This can be useful to determine if the player produces an obvious noisefloor, severe distortion, or if it has sufficient voltage output to drive specific headphones to a suitable SPL. However, other than very obvious/large differences as I just listed, you rely too much on a biased perception to come up with a fair judgement of actual audio performance using such non-level matched, sighted listening conditions.

-Chris

which discman is the best

Reply #11 –
just as a reference point, i've heard that iriver portable cd players are top notch quality, they are pricey though.  and i too would certainly recommend you try out whatever you buy, before you buy it.
a windows-free, linux user since 1/31/06.

which discman is the best

Reply #12 –
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just as a reference point, i've heard that iriver portable cd players are top notch quality, they are pricey though.  and i too would certainly recommend you try out whatever you buy, before you buy it.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=316161"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I own 3 and they aren't so nice if u just want CD-DA. I'd go for the best Sony model for top-notch CD-DA. especially the D-EJ01 or D-EJ2000. Those are made for jogging too (G-Protection).

which discman is the best

Reply #13 –
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Quote
just as a reference point, i've heard that iriver portable cd players are top notch quality, they are pricey though.  and i too would certainly recommend you try out whatever you buy, before you buy it.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=316161"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I own 3 and they aren't so nice if u just want CD-DA. I'd go for the best Sony model for top-notch CD-DA. especially the D-EJ01 or D-EJ2000. Those are made for jogging too (G-Protection).
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=316162"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I've handled those models -- they do seem nice. But I still recommend the one in my prior post for purposes of durability -- it's built for heavy physical abuse. But this also means that is is more massive than most other units. But maybe extreme durability is not a factor for the original poster?

-Chris

which discman is the best

Reply #14 –
What about Panasonic's discmans? I've read on this forum that they have good opinion. Is it true? Which model do you recommend me to buy from this manufacture? I've seen Panasonic SL-SX332 on auction - it costs less than 20 €, but has long life on two AA battery, so it can have internal clipping on high level of volume? I don't listen loud on headphones, but i want to buy Koss PortaPro - it has 60 ohm impedance (actually I have Sennheiser MX550 - 16 ohm impedance), so I think I'll use higher volume than actually.

edit: SL-SX332 has 50 hours on two AA batteries, but I found SL-SX322 - it has less (33 hours). It can have either internal clipping? I found another discman - Sony DEJ615. Here is instruction to it (with technical informations).

which discman is the best

Reply #15 –
Quote
What about Panasonic's discmans? I've read on this forum that they have good opinion. Is it true? Which model do you recommend me to buy from this manufacture? I've seen Panasonic SL-SX332 on auction - it costs less than 20 €, but has long life on two AA battery, so it can have internal clipping on high level of volume? I don't listen loud on headphones, but i want to buy Koss PortaPro - it has 60 ohm impedance (actually I have Sennheiser MX550 - 16 ohm impedance), so I think I'll use higher volume than actually.

edit: SL-SX332 has 50 hours on two AA batteries, but I found SL-SX322 - it has less (33 hours). It can have either internal clipping? I found another discman - Sony DEJ615. Here is instruction to it (with technical informations).
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=316177"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Panasonic portable CD players (PCDPs) released in 2004-2005 do have digital amplifier ("D.Sound" logo) and therefore great SNR level (96-100 dB) and lesser sound distortions. Also, it is possible to switch between anti-skip modes (ADPCM 45 sec or PCM 10 sec). Most models are made in Japan.
I had mid-range Sony D-EJ and D-NE PCDPs manufactured in 2004 and was definitely not satisfied with their sound quality. D-EJ was made for Europe and had veery low maximum sound output level (low volume). D-NE had appropriate volume levels but while listening quiet parts of CD even with bundled earbuds I could hear hiss (noise). Also D-NE sometimes skips on VBR MP3s. Both D-EJ and D-NE have only G-Protection On/Off and cannot supply enough power to drive high impedance headphones.
Considering models you picked out the player of choice is SL-SX332.

which discman is the best

Reply #16 –
but somebody said, that when discman has long playing on battery, then propably has internal clipping distortion on high volume level distortions. I'm talking about it, because model SL-SX322 has only 33 hours (so propably doesn't have clipping), but SL-SX332 has 50 hours (so propably have clipping). Are you sure that SX332 doesn't have clipping?

which discman is the best

Reply #17 –
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but somebody said, that when discman has long playing on battery, then propably has internal clipping distortion on high volume level distortions. I'm talking about it, because model SL-SX322 has only 33 hours (so propably doesn't have clipping), but SL-SX332 has 50 hours (so propably have clipping). Are you sure that SX332 doesn't have clipping?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=316228"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Probably someone said it regarding Sony player model, because Discman™ is a Sony trademark, now replaced by Walkman™ . I own Panasonic SL-SX428, it plays CDDA up to 50 h on alkaline batteries and has a perfect sound on my opinion. Note that SL-SX428 and SL-SX332 have similar amplifiers.

which discman is the best

Reply #18 –
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but somebody said, that when discman has long playing on battery, then propably has internal clipping distortion on high volume level distortions. I'm talking about it, because model SL-SX322 has only 33 hours (so propably doesn't have clipping), but SL-SX332 has 50 hours (so propably have clipping). Are you sure that SX332 doesn't have clipping?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=316228"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


All, or at least most of these portable players have low output voltage. It's a physical limitation due to the internal working voltage.The internal power supply voltage limitiations[if there is no DC-DC convertor, then this is DC voltage divided by 2, factored by 0.707. For example, 3 volts battery power would translate into +/- 1.5 V for the supply rails, factor that by 1.5*0.707 to get the RMS voltage potential=1.06VRMS[this is a best case scenario assuming fresh alkaline batteries and a simple circuit with no other losses, it's more like 0.85 VRMS potential for two rechargeable 1.2 V AAs]] As a rule, you should only use relatively sensitive headphones directly from portable players -- esepcially ones that operate on a 3V power supply[2 AA batteries]. But you expressed interest in line out, so I presume that you are using a booster amp? There may be some units that have a DC-DC convertor internally, in order to have an higher operating voltage. But I don't know which products might have such a feature, especially since it further reduces battery life to use such circuitry. Anyone here know?

-Chris

which discman is the best

Reply #19 –
The D-NE recommendations were probably using line out to amplifiers.

which discman is the best

Reply #20 –
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Discman™ is a Sony trademark, now replaced by Walkman™
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=316235"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It was “Walkman” initially (for cassette players), and later replaced by “Discman” when they started to sell CD players.
Infrasonic Quartet + Sennheiser HD650 + Microlab Solo 2 mk3. 

which discman is the best

Reply #21 –
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Quote
Discman™ is a Sony trademark, now replaced by Walkman™
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=316235"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It was “Walkman” initially (for cassette players), and later replaced by “Discman” when they started to sell CD players.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=316296"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

At the present time Sony portable CD players are sold under CD Walkman® trademark, not Discman.

which discman is the best

Reply #22 –
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The D-NE recommendations were probably using line out to amplifiers.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=316255"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, D-NE has very good line out (no hiss for me). I also have to mention that `hiss' noise from headphones out is only audible in silent place and probably won't be noticeable while listening to music outdoors, especially with open-air headphones as Koss Porta-Pro is.

which discman is the best

Reply #23 –
what's your opinion about Koss PortaPro? I've read that have good bass, but what's about high tones (treble)? I'm asking, becasue I actually have Sennheiser MX550 and this headphones has frequency only to 15 kHz and it's terrible to listen to them more than 4 hours (because of this frequency response). What about Koss?

which discman is the best

Reply #24 –
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what's your opinion about Koss PortaPro? I've read that have good bass, but what's about high tones (treble)? I'm asking, becasue I actually have Sennheiser MX550 and this headphones has frequency only to 15 kHz and it's terrible to listen to them more than 4 hours (because of this frequency response). What about Koss?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=316373"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Koss Porta-Pro is a lightweight open-air supra-aural portable headphones with impressive reproduction of middle and treble frequencies, but the bass is superfluous and unnatural. Also there is completely no sound isolation.
As an alternative take a look at in-ear phones (canalphones), for instance Panasonic RP-HJE50.