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Topic: Playback DTS files as pass through. (Read 11057 times) previous topic - next topic
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Playback DTS files as pass through.

Hi all...

Foobar newbie, but long-time media guy.  Probably have a dumb question, but for some reason some basic stuff not coming to me.

About a year ago I moved to Plex; but as they still can't play surround audio formats - and today I decided I wanted to listen to some surround music, I decided to give Foobar a shot.  Installed Foobar 2.1 preview.  (Windows 10 Pro)

Foobar is playing DTS files in stereo.  As a test, I launched WMP and it bit-streams that same file to to my AVR and it decodes to surround... AVR shows as DTS 5.1 96/24 and the correct Dial Norm... therefore: files are good, SPDIF output from Windows to AVR is fine... AVR is working.

In Foobar, my output is sent to the same optical SPDIF output.  File plays in stereo and AVR states PCM 96.  Seems it is decoding DTS and either outputting just the L/R or downmixing.  Why?

What am I missing?  Do I have to explicitly set pass-thru?  I cannot find a setting for this.

Thanks for your assistance.


Re: Playback DTS files as pass through.

Reply #1 –
I just discovered the Console:  See attached.  Why is it stating?:

Mix Format:  96000 Hz / 32-bit float / 2 channels (0x3)

It seems Foobar is downmixing.

Re: Playback DTS files as pass through.

Reply #2 –
Can you try an output labeled "[exclusive]" ? (WASAPI exclusive)

Default output is WASAPI shared which requires re-sampling/mixing to match Windows settings.

Re: Playback DTS files as pass through.

Reply #3 –
Understood... when I do that, Foobar says:  :Unrecoverable playback error: Audio device could not be initialized.

There is nothing wrong with my audio device as it works perfectly with Plex - but no surround playback for audio-only formats (a known problem), and it works perfectly with WMP with all my DTS HDMA audio files. 

Is it possible Zoom or Skype - or some other service - has retained the exclusive use?

Re: Playback DTS files as pass through.

Reply #4 –
There is no bitstreaming in foobar2000. Its design intention is that all audio it plays goes through the same pipeline and everything is treated equal.

Re: Playback DTS files as pass through.

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Case on
There is no bitstreaming in foobar2000. Its design intention is that all audio it plays goes through the same pipeline and everything is treated equal.
OK.  Well that explains a lot.  I will move on to something else.

I have to say, that  don't understand the use-case (in 2024) of having a audio-only player on a Windows machine that does not bitstream. Maybe I am missing something...

When initially I was not getting any comments on this thread I was going to suggest that there are no users working in surround! 

Re: Playback DTS files as pass through.

Reply #6 –
I have a question:  Can Foobar Decode and SACD multi channel (eg: 5.1) region and then encode/convert it to DTS-HDMA file output?

Re: Playback DTS files as pass through.

Reply #7 –
Quote from: rap58 on
I have to say, that  don't understand the use-case (in 2024) of having a audio-only player on a Windows machine that does not bitstream. Maybe I am missing something...
Yes you are. The point is that no matter where your audio comes from its volume can be adjusted by the player, DSP effects get applied to it, channels are downmixed or upmixed how the user wants and most importantly, ReplayGain volume leveling works. You couldn't for example crossfade from normal stereo content to your multichannel DTS if the latter was bitstreamed.

Quote from: rap58 on
When initially I was not getting any comments on this thread I was going to suggest that there are no users working in surround!
There certainly are. You have never been limited to bitstreaming, sound cards have had analog multi channel outputs for a long time and HDMI introduced lossless digital multichannel output with enough bandwidth not to need lossy DTS encoding.

Quote from: rap58 on
I have a question:  Can Foobar Decode and SACD multi channel (eg: 5.1) region and then encode/convert it to DTS-HDMA file output?
Yes and no. foobar2000 can decode it but to my knowledge no one has made a DTS compressor output component. Back when S/PDIF was the only way to get multichannel digitally out of a sound card the soundcard drivers supported compressing multichannel content so it could be played back. If you have such drivers they work with all audio players, foobar2000 included.

Re: Playback DTS files as pass through.

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Case on
Quote from: rap58 on
I have to say, that  don't understand the use-case (in 2024) of having a audio-only player on a Windows machine that does not bitstream. Maybe I am missing something...
Yes you are. The point is that no matter where your audio comes from its volume can be adjusted by the player, DSP effects get applied to it, channels are downmixed or upmixed how the user wants and most importantly, ReplayGain volume leveling works. You couldn't for example crossfade from normal stereo content to your multichannel DTS if the latter was bitstreamed.

Quote from: rap58 on
When initially I was not getting any comments on this thread I was going to suggest that there are no users working in surround!
There certainly are. You have never been limited to bitstreaming, sound cards have had analog multi channel outputs for a long time and HDMI introduced lossless digital multichannel output with enough bandwidth not to need lossy DTS encoding.

Quote from: rap58 on
I have a question:  Can Foobar Decode and SACD multi channel (eg: 5.1) region and then encode/convert it to DTS-HDMA file output?
Yes and no. foobar2000 can decode it but to my knowledge no one has made a DTS compressor output component. Back when S/PDIF was the only way to get multichannel digitally out of a sound card the soundcard drivers supported compressing multichannel content so it could be played back. If you have such drivers they work with all audio players, foobar2000 included.

What I would love to see in future foobar versions is an option to toggle bitstream on and off. Is it technically possible?
If somebody wants to know why - here is my explanation:
Some things that are advantages to someone might be defects to someone else. I fully understand the use of some DSPs, RG and all that. But some people just want to play files just as they are - they do not need to process them, change them, make them louder or quieter, mix their channels and so on. They might also not want DTS to be decoded to PCM. For those people bitstream is the way to play music. They want their DSD file to reach their external DAC as DSD (I know that it is not technically a bitstream but it is just an example), they want their DTS file to reach their AVR as DTS.
I personally listen to albums - not some mixed playlists, so turning volume knob in my amp once every hour is not a problem (no need of RG). I listen to stereo in stereo and to 5.1 in 5.1 (no need of channel mapping and so on)....
Just pure music. If some artist recorded his music as crap (meaning productionwise) - somebody might want to listen to such crap. Not everyone wants to remix and remaster this product.

So....not having a lot of hope for such a feature.....I just wish that opponents of bitstream understand that some of us would appreciate to have such an option.

Re: Playback DTS files as pass through.

Reply #9 –
I remember how I once was looking for the same thing for all the wrong reasons, so ... random thoughts that everyone is free to ignore.
First, I am thinking that someone might want fb2k to handle and manage that part of their collection anyway. Question is then, what about a component like a "video player", such that fb2k just lets it grab the file and do whatever it wants to with it?
Sure you need to resolve issues like: should it be allowed to send to an audio device fb2k has exclusive-mode control over.
I guess this is a question for those cases where an external multichannel receiver/amp takes DTS over SPDIF, and then you probably want to be able to feed it both stereo and DTS over the same connection ... but then what else?

Quote from: wojak on
What I would love to see in future foobar versions is an option to toggle bitstream on and off. Is it technically possible?

That is a question, of course.
And then I guess there must be some options on precisely what to pass on. Like, you don't want your FLAC files passed as undecoded bitstream to some DAC that handles PCM and DTS. Maybe it could be connected to absence of RG tags also, because DTS in WAV.

But given that fb2k can do it, then putting it into the user interface shouldn't be hard.

Re: Playback DTS files as pass through.

Reply #10 –
Yea... I am not even bothering to respond because the rationale and the use cases cited are outside mainstream.  If you cannot bitstream, its a fail; and you can rationalize all you want it doesn't change the fact that most folks doing surround have AVR's. 

I have three 5.1 rooms in my home - one of which is a recording studio - and I spent a good part of my career in film/TV post.  So if Foobar doesn't do what I need... that's cool... but please don't tell me why I don't need bit-streaming.

Good luck.

Re: Playback DTS files as pass through.

Reply #11 –
Quote from: rap58 on
Yea... I am not even bothering to respond because the rationale and the use cases cited are outside mainstream.  If you cannot bitstream, its a fail; and you can rationalize all you want it doesn't change the fact that most folks doing surround have AVR's. 

I have three 5.1 rooms in my home - one of which is a recording studio - and I spent a good part of my career in film/TV post.  So if Foobar doesn't do what I need... that's cool... but please don't tell me why I don't need bit-streaming.

Good luck.

You mean the mainstream of two audio companies basically making standards that are incompatible with one another, and how the corporate overlords prefer anything proprietary Dolby or DTS comes up with over any standard that is free and open.  Or the fact you worked in an industry that treats it's creative talent like crap to the point of months-long strikes.  Whatever.

Re: Playback DTS files as pass through.

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Chibisteven on
Quote from: rap58 on
Yea... I am not even bothering to respond because the rationale and the use cases cited are outside mainstream.  If you cannot bitstream, its a fail; and you can rationalize all you want it doesn't change the fact that most folks doing surround have AVR's. 

I have three 5.1 rooms in my home - one of which is a recording studio - and I spent a good part of my career in film/TV post.  So if Foobar doesn't do what I need... that's cool... but please don't tell me why I don't need bit-streaming.

Good luck.

You mean the mainstream of two audio companies basically making standards that are incompatible with one another, and how the corporate overlords prefer anything proprietary Dolby or DTS comes up with over any standard that is free and open.  Or the fact you worked in an industry that treats it's creative talent like crap to the point of months-long strikes.  Whatever.

Why such matters almost every time lead to such pointless arguments????
Some need bitsream, some don't need it.
Those who need it, beg for it.
So wouldn't it be just simplier and nicer for people who don't need it and are not the authors of the program of plugin not to comment (what is the point)? I mean, if you don't need it, don't use it but will its existence ruin your life or foobar performance? Just don't install the plugin or turn the function off.
And if an author of such a program or plugin reads it - it would be nice for him just to reply - ex. OK, I will implement it next month or no I do not want to implement it and please stop begging for it or anything else but with sense not just words of condemn.
Again why do some pepole always try to pointlessly tell somebody else what is good for him and what he needs.
And again, if bitstream is useless why most players have it (please do not reply that I should start using those other programs...I already do it for bitstreams...and such an answer again would be pointless and just rude).
The case of foobar not having bitstream is just the case of those other programs having bitstream but not having ASIO out. Authors of those programs always reply that we do not need ASIO and that is the reason for not implementing it:). Do they really think that they know better that I do not need ASIO?
And again - Yes I need ASIO, yes I need bitstream, yes I need DR measuring componet (yes, that is the one most people here hate).
Thank you for the best player in the world. You have put many years of hard work in it. you still make it better. But please don't tell others what they need becuse they know what they need. If you don't want to write some component just reply that you will not write it....the explanation that we do not really want it to be written is.....not true.

Re: Playback DTS files as pass through.

Reply #13 –
Quote from: wojak on
Why such matters almost every time lead to such pointless arguments????
Some need bitsream, some don't need it.
Those who need it, beg for it.
So wouldn't it be just simplier and nicer for people who don't need it and are not the authors of the program of plugin not to comment (what is the point)? I mean, if you don't need it, don't use it but will its existence ruin your life or foobar performance? Just don't install the plugin or turn the function off.
And if an author of such a program or plugin reads it - it would be nice for him just to reply - ex. OK, I will implement it next month or no I do not want to implement it and please stop begging for it or anything else but with sense not just words of condemn.
Again why do some pepole always try to pointlessly tell somebody else what is good for him and what he needs.
And again, if bitstream is useless why most players have it (please do not reply that I should start using those other programs...I already do it for bitstreams...and such an answer again would be pointless and just rude).
The case of foobar not having bitstream is just the case of those other programs having bitstream but not having ASIO out. Authors of those programs always reply that we do not need ASIO and that is the reason for not implementing it:). Do they really think that they know better that I do not need ASIO?
And again - Yes I need ASIO, yes I need bitstream, yes I need DR measuring componet (yes, that is the one most people here hate).
Thank you for the best player in the world. You have put many years of hard work in it. you still make it better. But please don't tell others what they need becuse they know what they need. If you don't want to write some component just reply that you will not write it....the explanation that we do not really want it to be written is.....not true.

It doesn't seem like something that's going to get implemented unless the author of this audio player decides in favor of it.  It's possible to bit-stream a DTS CD in 1.6.17 or earlier (requires that no DTS component be installed).  Same is true if you encapsulate a Dolby Digital stream (.ac3) into a wave file (.wav).  Bit-streaming is more useful for video players like VLC (where it's more common place and expected to be a possible Dolby or DTS stream present within a video file or optical disc format like DVD) than it is in audio players like foobar2000 that handles MP3/FLAC collections (where disabling ReplayGain and DSP use may go against what the player is supposed to be doing to all audio it plays).  I don't care if bit-streaming is implemented or not but I prefer someone not use "I worked in the movie/TV industry" excuse when talking about stuff designed specifically for audio playback and not video playback.  I'm also tired at attempted forms of DRM (MQA) that degrade the audio listening experience which often requires bit-streaming to work basically rendering a player useless do nothing to improve your listening experience kind of crap that bit-streaming can encourage.

Re: Playback DTS files as pass through.

Reply #14 –
I have got the same problem. It is impossible to sent wave files with encoded dts content to the external processor/av receiver.
Wave file with dts inside can not be recognized by external decoder.
Foobar 2.0 in status bar displays such a info: DTS Coherent Acoustic and in the console one can see: Warning: not all played channels could be mapped to ASIO channels..
Foobar 1.6 plays wave files with encoded DTS content properly - external decoder/av receiver recognizes data stream with no problems.
So I guess there is no bit perfect transmission in Foobar 2.0. Original file is altered in some way, so bit perfect is unpossible to obtain.
Why, why Foobar 2.0 is worse than Foobar 1.6.
Maybe there is some solution, maybe there is a possibility to disable DTS Coherent Acoustic filter/decoder (whatever it is).
In Foobar 1.6 wave files with implemented dts content is treated as PCM.

I put a short sample in the link below:
{removed} - audio sample exceeded 30 seconds
It is a normal wave file with dts content and every external decoder/av receiver should recognize this file (via optical or coax) as a DTS.
---------
No plugins, no VST, no ReplayGain, volume in foobar 0dB, ASIO or WASAPI exclusive, optical or coax.
Foobar 2.0 - av receiver/external decoder can not decode the stream data.
Foobar 1.6 - av receiver/external decoder can decode the stream data


MOD edit: link removed. Audio sample was longer than necessary for testing (exceeded 30 seconds).

Re: Playback DTS files as pass through.

Reply #15 –
Well. Arguments this way or that way on "why (not) implement it" aside:
Why remove it when it works?

Re: Playback DTS files as pass through.

Reply #16 –
Nothing was removed. The new foobar2000 includes AC3 and DTS decoding out-of-the-box so most people can enjoy the formats. Playing such file without external receiver's help in old foobar2000 resulted in you hearing loud white noise. Now you hear the actual audio.

It's unfortunate to say, but if you want to use bitstreaming or send midi notes as midi notes to external devices, foobar2000 is not the best player for you. Its main design goal was the common audio pipeline I already mentioned in the first reply, making it different from all other audio players at the time of its creation. It can be expanded to handle everything, but it's a different question if anyone wants to implement such features. Bitstreaming has very limited uses and generally it is a thing for video players.

I'd assume you people complaining about lack of bitstream have analog 5.1 or 7.1 outputs in your computers or audio interfaces? Motherboards have supported these for about 20 years. If you connected your systems with analog 6 channel cables you wouldn't need bitstreaming and you would have multi channel output from everywhere, not just niche video sources that use the supported precompressed formats. Or possibly you have new-enough receivers that handle HDMI. Just use that if you don't want to go with analog outputs.

But arguing is pointless. Some people are stuck in their ways and think that what worked since the '80s or the '90s is how everything should still be implemented. wojak tried to tell why bitstreaming is needed but the argument seemed to be that some people want the bits to be decoded at the receiver, no sooner.

Objectionally bitstreaming is worse even if you don't want to do alterations because the receiver will always have a delay before it detects the format in question and there can often be glitches when formats change. Even if you don't use ReplayGain (which is a shame, you definitely should give it a try) or alter volume in player, if you ever seek in a track you will hear annoying glitches when audio stream changes abruptly. Personally I wouldn't change the smooth seeking feature of foobar2000 to anything.

Re: Playback DTS files as pass through.

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Case on
The new foobar2000 includes AC3 and DTS decoding out-of-the-box so most people can enjoy the formats.

I don't think so. I (and many others) do not need internal decoding - we need bit perfect transmission to our external decoders. Just like it is in every DAW or audio editors or any other players.

Quote from: Case on
Playing such file without external receiver's help in old foobar2000 resulted in you hearing loud white noise. Now you hear the actual audio.

Now I can hear nothing. AV Receiver can not recognize the data stream. My AV Receiver is connected with my computer via toslink (10m/32ft)

Quote from: Case on
It's unfortunate to say, but if you want to use bitstreaming [...] foobar2000 is not the best player for you.

It used to be a bit perfect player prior 2.0v, now it is just a player.

Quote from: Case on
Bitstreaming has very limited uses and generally it is a thing for video players.

It is not true at all. Bitstream is the most important thing. It does not matter if it is audio or video. Bitstream is needed e.g. to properly decode HDCD via external procesor

Quote from: Case on
I'd assume you people complaining about lack of bitstream have analog 5.1 or 7.1 outputs in your computers or audio interfaces? Motherboards have supported these for about 20 years.

It is a joke. Try to send via analog six channels to the AV receiver which stands 15 meters away from your computer. You will need 6 cables (!) instead of one thin toslink.

So it is a time to change the player. Foobar is now worse than Aimp. Every audio editor or DAW can sent unaltered data stream to the external decoder. Foobar can't. Why?
It was possible prior 2.0 version.




Re: Playback DTS files as pass through.

Reply #18 –
Quote from: misio on
It is not true at all. Bitstream is the most important thing. It does not matter if it is audio or video. Bitstream is needed e.g. to properly decode HDCD via external procesor
It is?  I mean I've been able to decode HDCDs without the need to bit-stream anything using regular software.  HDCD is a bit of a scam.

Quote from: misio on
It is a joke. Try to send via analog six channels to the AV receiver which stands 15 meters away from your computer. You will need 6 cables (!) instead of one thin toslink.
It's your choice of setup, not much to say here.

Quote from: misio on
So it is a time to change the player. Foobar is now worse than Aimp. Every audio editor or DAW can sent unaltered data stream to the external decoder. Foobar can't. Why?
Case just explained why.  Unless Peter wants to make a "special" exception to keep people like you happy.

Quote from: misio on
It was possible prior 2.0 version.
It was possible in 1.6.17 and earlier because Kode54 maintained the components which had to be downloaded separately and installed prior to version 2.0.  You still couldn't play .ac3 or .dts without those components, it had to already be embedded in an audio stream like .wav to work.

Re: Playback DTS files as pass through.

Reply #19 –
Quote from: Case on
I'd assume you people complaining about lack of bitstream have analog 5.1 or 7.1 outputs in your computers or audio interfaces? Motherboards have supported these for about 20 years.

Think you need an update. I'm not even saying that "several new mobos scrap it", because that has probably been going on for years too.

Re: Playback DTS files as pass through.

Reply #20 –
Quote from: Porcus on
Think you need an update. I'm not even saying that "several new mobos scrap it", because that has probably been going on for years too.

It's usually to sell you a separate sound card if you need the output (because a sales person at a store might say you need a separate sound card to purchase at least that's how it went 12 years ago because commissions and other crap).  Some implementations are capable of switching some inputs to additional outputs.  Line in has been combined with Mic In on some sound card implementations or where 7.1 was once offered is now 5.1 with some manufacturers of sound cards.  It gets messy pretty fast.

Re: Playback DTS files as pass through.

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Chibisteven on

It's usually to sell you a separate sound card if you need the output (because a sales person at a store might say you need a separate sound card to purchase at least that's how it went 12 years ago because commissions and other crap).  Some implementations are capable of switching some inputs to additional outputs.  Line in has been combined with Mic In on some sound card implementations or where 7.1 was once offered is now 5.1 with some manufacturers of sound cards.  It gets messy pretty fast.

What are you talking about, man? Should we drop the digital transmission and return to an old analog standard? People invest in their sofisticated hi-fi gear not to use analog outputs via six cables to their receivers/decoders.
Everything was OK in foobar 1.6, now it is a big mess. Digital stream should be outputed in an unaltered way. If someone wants to manipulate with digital contents it is up to him/her. But there should be an option to output a pure signal untouched at all.

I posted above a link to a wave sample. Download it and try to send it to your AV Receiver or external decoder via toslink/coax. Receiver will not recognize the stream - DTS content will be lost.

Re: Playback DTS files as pass through.

Reply #22 –
Quote from: Chibisteven on
It gets messy pretty fast.

It's quite clean here. Not entirely minimalistic ... I'm that kind of hoarder who has two of everything. So:

Two USB to SPDIF dongles. One for fb2k exclusive, one for ... browsers and stuff.
One stereo jack for headphones. One BT headphone for noise cancelling and when I need phone calls to interrupt me.

DTS over SPDIF isn't any big deal with me, but sure I understand the point.


Quote from: misio on
Quote from: Chibisteven on
It's usually to sell you a separate sound card if you need the output (because a sales person at a store might say you need a separate sound card to purchase at least that's how it went 12 years ago because commissions and other crap).

What are you talking about, man? Should we drop the digital transmission and return to an old analog standard?
I'm sure that said sales persons will be happy to push both on you. No need to pretend to be so shocked.

Re: Playback DTS files as pass through.

Reply #23 –
Quote from: misio on
What are you talking about, man? Should we drop the digital transmission and return to an old analog standard? People invest in their sofisticated hi-fi gear not to use analog outputs via six cables to their receivers/decoders.
I didn't say that we should drop anything.  What I'm talking about is the crocked nature of the tech industry and the retail industry.  What I'm talking about is odd implementation of certain features and the odd removal of others.

Quote from: misio on
Everything was OK in foobar 1.6, now it is a big mess. Digital stream should be outputed in an unaltered way. If someone wants to manipulate with digital contents it is up to him/her. But there should be an option to output a pure signal untouched at all.
That's fine but it isn't my call to make whether or not Peter offers that option.  Go bug him and see what he says about it.

Quote from: misio on
I posted above a link to a wave sample. Download it and try to send it to your AV Receiver or external decoder via toslink/coax. Receiver will not recognize the stream - DTS content will be lost.
I've not had a working A/V receiver in years and when it was working it only accepted Dolby Digital over toslink.  The only thing I have for working 5.1 Surround Sound is my 5,1 Logitech computer speaker set which is basically 3 separate 3.5mm aux input jacks into a sub that plugs into the wall and has 5 separate satellite speakers that plug into the sub. no toslink, no coax but it works just fine.

Re: Playback DTS files as pass through.

Reply #24 –
Quote from: Porcus on
Think you need an update. I'm not even saying that "several new mobos scrap it", because that has probably been going on for years too.
Two of the images show three plugs which are enough for 5.1 output. The one with only two analog plugs seems to be Gigabyte B760I AORUS PRO, which according to specs supports 5.1 and 7.1 outputs. I was curious how it's implemented and checked the manual, you need to use front panel connectors for multi channel analog output. Weird design decision but perhaps people buying Gigabyte don't care about audio. Latest Asus motherboards have plenty of connectors.