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Topic: Uncompressed audio format which supports >4GB files? (Read 5007 times) previous topic - next topic
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Uncompressed audio format which supports >4GB files?

I've about 3 hours audio recorded in Audacity at 24-bit 192kHz, I want to export it for processing in another program (iZotope).

It seems the WAV format doesn't support files greater than 4GB. AIFF the same or less I think.

Of course I can export to FLAC and then use that, but I was wondering if there's an uncompressed audio format that supports 4GB+ files?

I know FLAC is lossless but given modern hard-drive sizes and write speeds, it would be nice if there was a way to make use of that for speed instead of going through a single-threaded compression algorithm just to move the audio between programs.

Re: Uncompressed audio format which supports >4GB files?

Reply #1 –
WAV64 or RF64 are supposed to work.   Just quickly checking, FFmpeg for Audacity shows "W64" a an option.

I'd probably use FLAC. Is it really slower?  It's more common/standard.

P.S.
I just did a quick test on my computer which is "rather average" with a regular spinning-disc hard drive.  I have a file that's slightly over 1 hour and a little over 700GB (in WAV format).

Amazingly, overall it was a tie!!! 

Open WAV = 29 Seconds
Save WAV = 24 seconds
Total = 53 seconds.

Save FLAC = 40 seconds
Open FLAC = 13 seconds
Total = 53 seconds.

Re: Uncompressed audio format which supports >4GB files?

Reply #2 –
Quote from: forestasia on
I've about 3 hours audio recorded in Audacity at 24-bit 192kHz, I want to export it for processing in another program (iZotope).

It seems the WAV format doesn't support files greater than 4GB. AIFF the same or less I think.


Of course I can export to FLAC and then use that, but I was wondering if there's an uncompressed audio format that supports 4GB+ files?

I know FLAC is lossless but given modern hard-drive sizes and write speeds, it would be nice if there was a way to make use of that for speed instead of going through a single-threaded compression algorithm just to move the audio between programs.

That size liimit sounds like a Windows issue with FAT32. Are you certain the drive is formatted
NTFS? I just looked at some of the larger .WAV files but my largest is "only" 857 meg  so I appended
various versions to get a 4.17 GB file 7:03:36.099. This is stereo 44KHz. Adobe Audition 3 complained
the file size exceeded 4GB but I saved anyway. Adobe will read the file correctly and yes, it ends at the
correct place. When I tried to play it in Win 10 "groove music" it's limited to 6:45:37, same in VLC and
Windows Media player. Audition takes 45.5 seconds to open but it also creates a .PK file to speed up
subsequent opening which only takes 0.02 seconds with the .PK file. Saving as lossless .WMA  took 121
seconds. Saving as 192Kbit MP3 took 128 seconds.  All the file players play the entire 7:03:36 of both
the .WMA and .MP3 files

Large video files are very common here.15-20 GB are daily but large audio files only for experiments.

G²

Re: Uncompressed audio format which supports >4GB files?

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Glenn Gundlach on
That size liimit sounds like a Windows issue with FAT32.
It's not. Many file formats (including WAV and AIFF) use 32 bits to store the length in bytes, and you can't count higher than 4,294,967,295 using 32 bits.

Re: Uncompressed audio format which supports >4GB files?

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Glenn Gundlach on
That size liimit sounds like a Windows issue with FAT32. Are you certain the drive is formatted
NTFS? I just looked at some of the larger .WAV files but my largest is "only" 857 meg  so I appended
various versions to get a 4.17 GB file 7:03:36.099. This is stereo 44KHz. Adobe Audition 3 complained
the file size exceeded 4GB but I saved anyway. Adobe will read the file correctly and yes, it ends at the
correct place. When I tried to play it in Win 10 "groove music" it's limited to 6:45:37, same in VLC and
Windows Media player.
4GB+ .wav file is nonstandard, which means it is entirely possible for some software to create 4GB+ .wav files providing the file system support it, but there is no guarantee that other software can correctly read the whole file back. Your observation that software other than some specific version of Audition reporting a shorter file duration is a clear sign of this issue.

https://helpx.adobe.com/audition/using/saving-exporting-files1.html

Quote
4GB Plus Support

Stores files larger than 4GB using either RF64 format, which reflects the current European Broadcasting Union standard, or the Multiple Data Chunks format supported by older versions of Audition.

Note: To ensure compatibility with a wide range of applications, choose the RF64 format for files greater than 4GB.

If you open a .wav file with a hex editor, "RIFF" will always show up in the first 4 bytes, then the proceeding 4 bytes (32 bits) data is used to indicate the chunk size, also the legitimate file size limit of a .wav file. Some software can use various hacks like using multiple "data" chunks, additional metadata and such as a hint to extend the limit, or simply let the RIFF chunk size to overflow and use the modulo to estimate file length, but these methods are all nonstandard and won't guarantee every software/hardware can correctly read all the data back.

In the case of streaming or piping, the RIFF chunk size can be ignored as there is no "file" to begin with, but it is another thing.

Re: Uncompressed audio format which supports >4GB files?

Reply #5 –
I tested how lossless codecs handle > 4 GB including those nonstandard hacks: https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,122222.0.html
Note I had to revise some opinions in view of changing fact ... and some in view of my own incompetence.

Re: Uncompressed audio format which supports >4GB files?

Reply #6 –
At the risk of invoking the necrothread metathread:

Is AIFF still formally confined to 2 GB, by requiring ckSize to be signed? I found no spec update. Edit: What about AIFC?
Seems that certain applications do write an unsigned, like for WAVE (... and, it seems, AU/SND).

Re: Uncompressed audio format which supports >4GB files?

Reply #7 –
AIFC is just compressed (such as ALAW, or ULaw).

Probably better with Core Audio Format (CAF) which can handle more then 4GB

Re: Uncompressed audio format which supports >4GB files?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: spoon on
AIFC is just compressed (such as ALAW, or ULaw).
No, AIFC allows uncompressed - even, float in AIFF must be AIFC, as old AIFF doesn't support it.

There are even two integer-PCM AIFC modes: AIFC-NONE is uncompressed like old AIFF, and AIFC-sowt is uncompressed but little-endian.

Anyway, the question was whether its limitation is still formally 2 GiB. And since it seems macOS even defaults to AIFC (i.e. prefers AIFC-NONE over old AIFF), it could very well be that only the AIFC format allowed 4 ... for all that I know.
But does anyone know?

Re: Uncompressed audio format which supports >4GB files?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Porcus on
Anyway, the question was whether its limitation is still formally 2 GiB.
https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/MusicAudio/Reference/CAFSpec/CAF_overview/CAF_overview.html claims:
"AIFF, AIFF-C, and WAV files are limited in size to 4 gigabytes"

Odd place to "upgrade" AIFF, and strictly speaking it doesn't say completely clearly that all these three formats go all the way to 4, but they must expect > 2 GiB AIFF/AIFC to be created when they write such things.


Quote from: Porcus on
And since it seems macOS even defaults to AIFC (i.e. prefers AIFC-NONE over old AIFF)
That's what I thought, until ...