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Topic: Album Artist/Artist (Read 5520 times) previous topic - next topic
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Album Artist/Artist

Hiya

I've been having this problem since my very first day of Foobar about a month ago and I've googled it a lot but never really found a good solution (except for one, but it doesn't seem to be a "good" solution).

Put simply, the fact that the fields %album artist% and %artist% are not mapped to their own metadata fields (ALBUM ARTIST and ARTIST) but instead run down ARTIST, ALBUM ARTIST, PERFORMER and COMPOSER until they find a value is just... so bad in so many ways (before you say "use $meta", keep reading). It makes the fields inconsistent in what they actually display, exactly because they could be any of those metadata fields. To someone like me who expects report-like information (exact, uniform and definite), that's a disaster.

I've taken a look at the tagging standards to see if those would help, since my usage of the ARTIST and ALBUM ARTIST tags was kinda improvised. Basically, if all tracks in the album had the same ARTIST tag, I removed it and put the value in ALBUM ARTIST instead. Makes sense in a way, to me. I quickly made the change to follow the recommended standards regarding ALBUM ARTIST, but it didn't solve the problem at all.

The problem: I want Foobar to display the window title and such as follows.
title - album (album artist) - artist (composer)
(string formatting: %title% - %album%[ '('%album artist%')'][ - %(track )artist%][ '('%composer%')']])

Of course, with the %album artist% and %artist% value cascading, the string ends up having incorrect values. %track artist% seemed helpful at first, but it doesn't actually help at all...
title - album (composer) - composer (composer)
title - album (artist) - (composer)
etc

The obvious solution would be to use $meta. That way, I get exactly what I want without any fields mapped to the wrong metadata. But it just seems wrong to use $meta, from a technical POV, because you're supposed to use % fields instead.

After messing around with gargantuan logical structures and such in string formatting (to try to avoid using $meta for said reason), I got a bit tired of it and made this spreadsheet to figure out the solution the proper way.

Turns out it can't be done.
(typo in the spreadsheet: if %ta% does not exist, there's a problem with %aa% and %a%)


So, my question now: is there either
a) an option to turn off that value cascading (probably not)
b) any way, other than $meta, to get around this? Or is the usage of $meta not disrecommended at all?

Personally I don't see any other solution than to start using $meta though. The only other way would be to make sure that all tracks have their ARTIST and ALBUM ARTIST defined so that the fields don't cascade their value, but of course that can't just be done.

Another question: why are those 2 fields set up that way? It just seems to go against the whole logic of field mapping, the logical structuring in string formatting, etc. They create a problem that needs to be (but can't be) solved and reverted with string formatting instead of being just another tiny piece of the puzzle that needs to be glued together with string formatting. What those fields do now could easily be achieved with string formatting if they worked the same way as all the other fields ( $if2(%album artist%,$if2(%artist%,%composer%)) ), but the reverse can't be done (except with $meta).

It might seem silly to make a long post like this about such a small thing, but there's nothing in the world that bothers me more than a big, perfectly painted wall... with a single little stain in the corner.

Thanks for any feedback and sorry for the wall of text. I think I already know the answer, but you can't know if you're missing something of course...

Album Artist/Artist

Reply #1 –
I don't think you are obligated to use "%fieldname%" at all. If the situation calls for using $meta() to avoid field  remapping, then use it. In such a case it's the right tool for the job.

{2nd edit: Reverted to original}

Album Artist/Artist

Reply #2 –
I thought this could be done with Preferences->Advanced->Display->Autocomplete Fields but it didnt work when I tested it

Album Artist/Artist

Reply #3 –
Quote from: trout on
~snip~


Yeah, that's what I was thinking... I'll just consider them equally valid methods from now on.


Does anyone know about the second question though? Why those 2 fields behave so differently and in a way that could more easily be done than undone with title formatting? I'm just curious, it doesn't seem like a practical decision I'd take as a dev.

Album Artist/Artist

Reply #4 –
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the problem (it wouldn't be the first time!), but if you define an artist for every track, and an album artist for all albums containing guest performers, and an album artist for pure compilations (i.e. album artist = Various Artists), then doesn't the problem go away?

Album Artist/Artist

Reply #5 –
What trout said. $meta is not “disrecommended” at all. It’s just a way of directly accessing fields without invoking any related remapping that %-delimited variables might perform. The implementation of the latter was for reasons of convenience, but equally, so was the former. If the situation calls for it, use it! So yes, they are “equally valid” as you said (albeit not equally functioning, of course).

Album Artist/Artist

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Ouroboros on
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the problem (it wouldn't be the first time!), but if you define an artist for every track, and an album artist for all albums containing guest performers, and an album artist for pure compilations (i.e. album artist = Various Artists), then doesn't the problem go away?

Well yeah, but my music is not of such a nature that those fields can always be filled...
Edit: I hate "Various Artists"... It's redundant.

Thanks guys, I guess the issue is solved then. Wasn't really a big one but second opinions are always handy.

Album Artist/Artist

Reply #7 –
"Various Artists" isn't "redundant". It makes album grouping work properly for genuine compilations. How else would you describe the performer for albums like "NOW 57", for example?

Out of interest, what sort of music do you have that doesn't have an artist?

Album Artist/Artist

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Ouroboros on
How else would you describe the performer for albums like "NOW 57", for example?

"NOW 57" is a compilation? if yes, then per definitionem it has no album artist/perfomer...at least from my POV
i'm really trying to not be anal about my music collection, but using the album artist field just doesn't feel right...admittedly this makes grouping unnecessary complicated

Quote
Out of interest, what sort of music do you have that doesn't have an artist?

intros/interludes/etc. from compilations
sounds...for example from the kill bill soundtrack

Album Artist/Artist

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Ouroboros on
"Various Artists" isn't "redundant". It makes album grouping work properly for genuine compilations.


If you got two compilations, a Sex Pistols album and a ZZ Top album ... no, I don't really like that grouping.

I use a special character that places them after the Latin letters. Beware that collation rules are not even the same across Windows versions, but if you can do with non-keyboard characters you have a lot of choices. (The ampersand was a natural first idea though.) I have never found ¨ or ¤ in my tags (I use the latter to substitute for asterisk), no £ nor € nor ¥ (but lots of dollars!), and only one ^.

Album Artist/Artist

Reply #10 –
I thought about the "Various Artists" problem once upon a time . . .

The main thing to remember is that it is only one small part of many other parts of a "system" . . . and you (the user) are part of that system too.
If your system is a basic one then using "Various Artists" to describe all releases of the type is fine.
As your system becomes more advanced AND your insight becomes deeper, then usage of "Various Artists" to describe all releases of the type no longer seems good enough;

Some things I have done on my system to manage this are:

Filesystem:
Define "Various" folders as "v - sub-definition" (i.e.   letter "v"    space    dash    space    words).
Example:
Quote
F:\music\lib\popular\thelma huston
F:\music\lib\popular\thunderclap newman
F:\music\lib\popular\todd rundgren
F:\music\lib\popular\toto
F:\music\lib\popular\v - artist - beatles
F:\music\lib\popular\v - artist - burt bacharach
F:\music\lib\popular\v - style - pop
F:\music\lib\popular\v - style - surf
F:\music\lib\popular\van morrison
F:\music\lib\popular\ventures,the
F:\music\lib\popular\yazoo


Metadata/Tags:
Let's target one album from my filesystem listing above . . . . . . . this:
Quote
F:\music\lib\popular\v - style - surf\(2007) the birth of surf\cd - ace records cdchd 1155 (deu)\...


I drag the containing folder into a foobar2000 playlist, select all items and go to "Properties":

I add this string to the $meta(album artist) tag field:    V - Style - Surf; Various Artists; VA; Compilation

For display in my Playlist Viewer, I choose only the first value in the tag using this syntax in my grouping display script:    $if2($meta(album artist,0),$meta(artist,0))    and split the values using semicolon as delimiter

Using my complete script for grouping display, my Playlist Viewer displays this:    V - Style - Surf   •   (2007) The Birth of Surf   •   CD - ACE Records CDCHD 1155 (DEU)

The reason I create multiple values in my tags is that it broadens my scope when retrieving/querying/displaying information using other tools such as "Media Library Search" window and "Media Libray Filter" columns.

FYI, you may also like to read these posts I made here:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=814123
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=826605

Album Artist/Artist

Reply #11 –
Quote from: Porcus on
If you got two compilations, a Sex Pistols album and a ZZ Top album ... no, I don't really like that grouping.

Those aren't compilations, those are greatest hits albums. The album artist is "The Sex Pistols" for one and "ZZ Top" for the other.

Compilations are where the contents are linked by a theme e.g. "The Top 20 Best Selling Number Ones Of The Sixties". All artists are different, hence the Album Artist is "Various Artists".

Clearly you may occasionally have to make a judgement call e.g. a movie soundtrack where half of the tracks are by one artist, the rest by other unrelated artists. I would still tag such albums as "Various Artists", but obviously since each individual track has the name of the track artist in the artist tag then there is no loss of tag fidelity or granularity.

Album Artist/Artist

Reply #12 –
Quote
A compilation album is an album (music or spoken-word) featuring tracks from one or more performers, often culled from a variety of sources (such as studio albums, live albums, singles, demos and outtakes.) The tracks are usually collected according to a common characteristic, such as popularity, genre, source or subject matter. When the tracks are all essentially by the same recording artist, a compilation album is often referred to as a retrospective album....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compilation_album

Album Artist/Artist

Reply #13 –
%album artist% is for album releases and %artist% is for tracks.

If you have an album from the artist X where every track is from artist X alone. You tag every track with %artist% = X and %album artist% = empty.
http://pbrd.co/YXibp8

If you have an album from the artist X with a lot of features you tag each track with %artist% = X;Y etc and %album artist% = X.
http://pbrd.co/YXi7pj

If you have an album that is a collaboration from artists X and Y you tag each track regarding to the artist(s) either %artist% = X or Y or X;Y and %album artist% = X;Y.
http://pbrd.co/YXjxQG
http://pbrd.co/YXjk05

I don't have any VA releases in my library since I strictly ignore them, that's what playlists are for.
The very act of observing, influences what happens.

Album Artist/Artist

Reply #14 –
Quote from: sollniss on
$meta(album artist) is for album releases and $meta(artist) is for tracks.
Fixed that for you.  This thread came about due to the ambiguity of %artist% whereby it will check $meta(album artist) if $meta(artist) does not exist.

FWIW, my personal scheme is not to use album artist unless the album is a compilation: I specifically delete it otherwise. Compilations get an album artist of “Various”, and albums where there’s clearly one main artist but some tracks feature others get an album artist of the main artist and per-track artists to suit each individual track. This system may not be optimal for other users or from some semantic perspective, but those are the habits I’ve formed for these fields.

Album Artist/Artist

Reply #15 –
Quote from: Ouroboros on
Quote from: Porcus on
If you got two compilations, a Sex Pistols album and a ZZ Top album ... no, I don't really like that grouping.

Those aren't compilations, those are greatest hits albums. The album artist is "The Sex Pistols" for one and "ZZ Top" for the other.


Ah, mea culpa, why did I write «two»? What I meant is, I do not want

Sex Pistols
Various Artists
Various Artists
ZZ Top

I think there is absolutely no reason to have various artists splitting the alphabet.

Album Artist/Artist

Reply #16 –
I guess it depends on how you set up foobar2000, but I don't see the listing you describe - unless I want it! If I sort or view by artist then I see only the actual performing artists on the track. Various Artists is only displayed if I am grouping by album, but sorting by album artist.

Put another way: if you add an album artist tag (including "Various Artists" for genuine compilations) then all versions of sorting are possible, and very easily, and you can organise your views to avoid having "Various Artists" displayed if that's what you want. If you don't add an album artist tag then you get the problem the OP was reporting, and don't have the flexibility to fix it with simple title formatting strings.

FWIW, I tag exactly as db1989 does (we have had a similar discussion previously!), in that I only tag the album artist where the track artist varies across the album, but I can still achieve any reasonable view of my libraries or playlists without the problem the OP describes.

Album Artist/Artist

Reply #17 –
I agree with the others that there's no reason not to use $meta for the OP's issue.

My system:
1. I aim to have %album artist% filled for every file, never left blank.
2. I define %album artist% as "the subjectively chosen, salient, useful field value shared by all the tracks of an album". Common fields that serve this role are %artist%, %composer%, %performer%, %curator%, %publisher%, %genre%, %country%, %language%, etc. A multivalue listing of %artist% values is a very common case, aka "split release". In other words, it doesn't literally mean "artist", but in the vast majority of cases it is the artist.
2. I aim to never use "various", "various artist", "va", etc, but I sometimes use it as a temporary fix if I can't figure out a proper entry offhand and just want to do basic tag cleaning.