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Topic: Pcabx Vs. Abchr (Read 3749 times) previous topic - next topic
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Pcabx Vs. Abchr

I played around with both PCABX and ABCHR today and asked myself how they play back sound. IIRC there are two 'audio APIs' in windows - DirectSound which uses DirectX and WaveOut which relies on...anything else  (please correct me if I'm wrong). Which program uses which one? Could it be that they use different APIs?

Pcabx Vs. Abchr

Reply #1 –
Neither program uses DirectX.  Abchr uses the MCI routines available for use by Visual C++.  Neither program uses the low-level Wave functions, though.

ff123

Pcabx Vs. Abchr

Reply #2 –
You can try too WinABX, at http://www.kikeg.arrakis.es/winabx . It is similar to PCABX, but with more features and ease of use, IMHO  . It uses low-level WaveOut functions. Quality-wise, any of the 3 programs is exactly the same.

Pcabx Vs. Abchr

Reply #3 –
I asked because I did ABX tests yesterday and with f123's program I could often tell the difference between MPC and WAV (I compared 4 different encoder versions, so I did 4 tests) with the worst score being 5/8 whereas using PCABX with the same files the results varied greatly.

I give you the numbers:

ABCHR
1.1: 6/8
1.121: 7/8
1.13g: 5/8
1.14: 6/8

PCABX
1.1: 2/8, second try 4/8
1.14: 6/8
1.121: 1/8
1.13g: 4/8

I also tested with PCABX because I got the impression that ABCHR changed the buttons associated with the files so that the left play button represented sometimes the source file and sometimes the encoder file (where i heard differences). The differences were just too obvious sometimes, as if the playback API had changed or if someone had enabled an equalizer. I hope that I'm not making a fool out of myself but this really occurred sometimes.

And I can't analyze my results - I can't explain why I got some rather poor results with one program and relatively good results with the other one.

Or is concentration and physical state such a crucial factor?

P.S.: Sorry for the troubles I might produce

Pcabx Vs. Abchr

Reply #4 –
Quote
I also tested with PCABX because I got the impression that ABCHR changed the buttons associated with the files so that the left play button represented sometimes the source file and sometimes the encoder file (where i heard differences). The differences were just too obvious sometimes, as if the playback API had changed or if someone had enabled an equalizer.

If you are referring to the ABX screen in Abchr, A and B remain constant, and X is the only one to change.  In the Abchr screen, the left and right buttons change, and the reference remains constant.

You can test this by using a very obviously degraded (or even a completely different) file.

ff123

Pcabx Vs. Abchr

Reply #5 –
Quote
If you are referring to the ABX screen in Abchr, A and B remain constant, and X is the only one to change.  In the Abchr screen, the left and right buttons change, and the reference remains constant.

You can test this by using a very obviously degraded (or even a completely different) file.

ff123

I didn't know that. I think it's a bad idea to change left and right buttons in Abchr screen constantly because if you already set the quality slider according to your impression and you wanna re-listen then you have to set the slider back in its original position and change the other one. Why did you decide to do it this way?

The change of sound I experienced in the ABX module (dunno if in Abchr too). I will test with a degraded file later.

Pcabx Vs. Abchr

Reply #6 –
Quote
I didn't know that. I think it's a bad idea to change left and right buttons in Abchr screen constantly because if you already set the quality slider according to your impression and you wanna re-listen then you have to set the slider back in its original position and change the other one. Why did you decide to do it this way?

The change of sound I experienced in the ABX module (dunno if in Abchr too). I will test with a degraded file later.

The left and right buttons remain constant for that particular test; that is, until you reload the configuration file or change the setup.  So it isn't constantly changing.

Neither PC-ABX nor Abchr change the digital bits when they play the sound.  You can verify this by downloading Total Recorder (http://totalrecorder.com/) and capture what is sent to your sound card.  After you perform a time alignment, you will find that what you get out is exactly what is in the file.

ff123

Pcabx Vs. Abchr

Reply #7 –
Oh, I see. Thx for the info.

And no ideas concerning my scores with the two different programs  Well...

Pcabx Vs. Abchr

Reply #8 –
try the 3rd ( geocities.com/smok3r/abx.htm - windoze/ie only) 
PANIC: CPU 1: Cache Error (unrecoverable - dcache data) Eframe = 0x90000000208cf3b8
NOTICE - cpu 0 didn't dump TLB, may be hung

Pcabx Vs. Abchr

Reply #9 –
Quote
And no ideas concerning my scores with the two different programs

It shows you that in the human brain, the perception and it's interpretation can be easily influenced by different factors. Cue: Placebo effect. Advertisement, for instance, makes extensive use of these psychological phenomena.

Pcabx Vs. Abchr

Reply #10 –
Quote
And I can't analyze my results - I can't explain why I got some rather poor results with one program and relatively good results with the other one.

Or is concentration and physical state such a crucial factor?

The difference between your scores could absolutely be due to this.

Another  possibility is that some of your Abchr scores were high just by chance, and you actually didn't hear a difference (with the likely exception of v 1.121).

I like the first option more however.

You could repeat the testing with more trials to see if the discrepancy is reproducible.

Pcabx Vs. Abchr

Reply #11 –
I repeated the test with ABX module of Abchr: Wav vs MPC 1.14 --quality 5 --xlevel and got 7/8. With the same files with PCABX I got 2/8. I did the second test immediately after the first. I'm going mad    I also tried again with PCABX, same files, and nearly always started the song from the beginning - like Abchr does automatically - and got 4/8. Not nearly as high as with Abchr.

Pcabx Vs. Abchr

Reply #12 –
Quote
I repeated the test with ABX module of Abchr: Wav vs MPC 1.14 --quality 5 --xlevel and got 7/8. With the same files with PCABX I got 2/8. I did the second test immediately after the first. I'm going mad  :blink:  :P I also tried again with PCABX, same files, and nearly always started the song from the beginning - like Abchr does automatically - and got 4/8. Not nearly as high as with Abchr.

For me, taking multiple abx-trials with MPC is particulary difficult. I noticed a few times, that the difference was obvious for me the first, e.g. 3 trials, but the sample became transparent later on. Maybe you could test the other way round next time? 

What version of ABCHR are you using? Pre 0.9a had possibly a bug in the randomization engine. ( http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....=7&t=1689&st=33 )