Skip to main content ↑ ↓

Notice

Please note that most of the software linked on this forum is likely to be safe to use. If you are unsure, feel free to ask in the relevant topics, or send a private message to an administrator or moderator. To help curb the problems of false positives, or in the event that you do find actual malware, you can contribute through the article linked here.
Topic: Dead fidelity on modern CDs (Read 16601 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #25 –
Quote
And let us not forget Audioslave.

replaygain_track_gain = -9.67 dB
replaygain_track_peak = 1.099151
replaygain_album_gain = -9.84 dB
replaygain_album_peak = 1.190704

Not only is it way over the limit, but it also is just plain distorted. I can not even listen to this CD, and I love the music.

Yeah, as I said, it hurts my ears just to listen to that CD.

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #26 –
Rush's Vapor Trails has got to be one of the worst CD's I have ever owned in terms of shoddy mastering. I can't remember the exact replay-gain values, but they were all close to -9 or -10dB, IIRC. Geddy Lee even brought this up in an interview shortly after the album was released, claiming that distortion occurred when they (the engineers) tried to get the effect that they were aiming for. (What effect, a jet engine taking off? ) Sadly, although Rush is one of my very favorite bands (as if one could not tell by my alias and sig.  ), I just cannot bear to listen to VT. Thus, it's probably the only Rush release that I am not all that familiar with. Unless a properly-mastered version is ever released, I doubt I ever will listen to it very much.

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #27 –
The Sisters of Mercy - Some Girls Wander By Mistake  ©1992
3. Phantom
replaygain_track_gain = +0.62 dB

There are also two short interlude type songs, one which goes as high as +14.89 dB.  Granted these songs were recorded much earlier but having been mastered in '92 I would like people know there are exceptions and not to make all those blanket statements about music going to crap.  I would have to say though that most recent albums of the type I listen to have clipping problems.  It is an unfortunate trend in the music industry that quality gets backburner to appeal.

Another example:
Synaesthesia - Desideratum ©1995
Disc 2 - 2. Subversion
replaygain_track_gain = +0.40 dB

[edit: spelling]
"Have you ever been with a woman? It's like death. You moan, you scream and then you start to beg for mercy, for salvation"

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #28 –
Quote
And let us not forget Audioslave.

replaygain_track_gain = -9.67 dB
replaygain_track_peak = 1.099151
replaygain_album_gain = -9.84 dB
replaygain_album_peak = 1.190704

Not only is it way over the limit, but it also is just plain distorted. I can not even listen to this CD, and I love the music.

I love it too - I just listen to it in my car with two 12in subs  - I don't think it sounds that distorted to tell the truth. IMO, the most compressed album I have ever come across is "Red Hot Chile Peppers - Californication" - that just sounds bad.....

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #29 –
AHA!!!! so its not only me
Quote
Red Hot Chile Peppers - Californication" - that just sounds bad.....


why does it sound so bad? is it because of distortion??

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #30 –
Quote
AHA!!!! so its not only me
Quote
Red Hot Chile Peppers - Californication" - that just sounds bad.....


why does it sound so bad? is it because of distortion??

Yeah....open up the song "Parallel Universe" in a wav editor....95% of the song is at 100% volume.... the entire 3-4min section of the song is at 100% volume...just plain horrible 

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #31 –
Quote
Yeah....open up the song "Parallel Universe" in a wav editor....95% of the song is at 100% volume.... the entire 3-4min section of the song is at 100% volume...just plain horrible 

heh, replaygain values for that song:

replaygain_track_gain = -14.29 dB
replaygain_track_peak = 1.370208
replaygain_album_gain = -12.98 dB
replaygain_album_peak = 1.387573

That's just...sad.

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #32 –
Quote
replaygain_track_gain = -14.29 dB
replaygain_track_peak = 1.370208
replaygain_album_gain = -12.98 dB
replaygain_album_peak = 1.387573

  That actually manages to beat Animositisomina.

8. Impossible
replaygain_track_gain = -12.35 dB
replaygain_track_peak = 1.321746
replaygain_album_gain = -11.94 dB
replaygain_album_peak = -1.502868

Although it does lose to the album peak above.
"Have you ever been with a woman? It's like death. You moan, you scream and then you start to beg for mercy, for salvation"

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #33 –
Quote
Thus, it's probably the only Rush release that I am not all that familiar with. Unless a properly-mastered version is ever released, I doubt I ever will listen to it very much.

The Rush in Rio live CD might help with that. That is, if you can overlook the the fact that the audience volume level is a bit too high.
flac > schiit modi > schiit magni > hd650

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #34 –
Is it just me, or does anyone else think that the last two songs on Rush In Rio (the soundboard extras) actually sound better than the rest of the cd?

and if you think californication was bad enough, listen to what they did to the tunes on Greatest Hits.
"You can fight without ever winning, but never win without a fight."  Neil Peart  'Resist'

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #35 –
Hi again,
unfortunately, this thread has'nt become what I really wanted.


Quote
hasnt this allready been covered that new cd's since the 90is sound worse.


As I already said, the topic is important enough.

Quote
then you need to provider evidence of any statement you make on this forum. see the warning bar on my one. thats what happens.


Proove something that is so obvious and accepted by most HA members ? But what should I do ? Offer some graphs or portions of audio for downloading ? This would be not so easy for me because of the circumstances of my internet access. But would that be a real proof of "all new Pop-CDs (or nearly all) have bad sound quality"? By the way, my warning bar is still 0%.

Quote
The answer is that producers want the music to be louder.


The answer can't be just so simple. Can you imagine that nearly all mastering engineers have the intention to make pop music sound really bad ? Or is it just sloppiness ? My personal suggestion is: They use superior formats (like 32-bit float or so) with samples above 0dB and then just convert down and clipping occurs.

Does anyone know which format record companies use for storing records for future ? Possibly in a clipped form, so they are destroyed forever.


Quote
Recording engineers have always produced popular music so that it sounds reasonably good on the lowest-common-denominator equipment (radios, car audio regardless of cost, boom-boxes, and just about any consumer home stereo from Sony, Pioneer, Bose, etc.). If you choose your music based solely on what you like in one of the pop genres, your likely to be sorely dissapointed in the sonic quality of the recording when listening on truly mid- to high-end gear.


So... But I can still notice digital distortions when listening to a so called boom-box. Every boom-box and low-end equipment offers better quality than today's Pop-CDs. What do you consider to be "real" mid-gear, FooForThought ? The difference between a common single audio-CD player from Sony, like you said, for example, to high-end seems to be really small; not worth the costs.


Quote
Quote
Limiting creates no distortions, but also kills the natural dynamics.


actually, limiting does create distortion. that is, it doesn't prevent distortion. in fact in many cases hard limiting makes matters worse. i have an album which is hard limited to just under fullscale yet there segments where as many as 200 consecutive samples are clipped. the distortion sounds exactly the same as if the waveform is clipped over fullscale. so, just throwing a look-ahead limiter into the mix doesn't eliminate clipping and it certainly doesn't prevent distortion.


Outscape, are you really sure of that? The basic difference between clipping and limiting/compression, it doesn't matter if hard or soft, is that clipping only affects samples above the clipping level. But the dynamical processes reduce the loudest peaks this way, that even the lowest samples of the peak (near 0) are affected. The lower samples are reduced in relation to the higher. So in your example, there seems to be both limiting and clipping. I know an overcompressed song sounds awful, but not distorted.


Quote
QUOTE (precisionist @ Jan 23 2004, 10:38 AM)
I like many songs of Celine Dion, I think this art is comparable to classic.

Does he get a warning for that? Mods!


OK, my statement is only partly true. The song "It's all coming back to me now" on the album I've mentioned was written by Jim Steinman, he's a musical composer.

Cheers
I know that I know nothing. But how can I then know that ?

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #36 –
Quote
Quote
Recording engineers have always produced popular music so that it sounds reasonably good on the lowest-common-denominator equipment (radios, car audio regardless of cost, boom-boxes, and just about any consumer home stereo from Sony, Pioneer, Bose, etc.). If you choose your music based solely on what you like in one of the pop genres, your likely to be sorely dissapointed in the sonic quality of the recording when listening on truly mid- to high-end gear.


So... But I can still notice digital distortions when listening to a so called boom-box. Every boom-box and low-end equipment offers better quality than today's Pop-CDs.

I thought the exact same thing, but didn't bother to reply.

Given a level matched comparison, just how bad does the equipment have to be for the compressed/squashed mix to sound better?

The answer is: bad enough that it doens't have enough power to handle the peaks.

There is some equipment out there like this. But so what - it's relatively rare* - and owners of this stuff should buy better equipment - not cause the rest of us to listen to poor quality audio all the time!

* most equipment - even cheap stuff - can cope with short loud peaks, but not continuous sounds at the same level. It varies though.

Cheers,
David.

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #37 –
Quote
OK, my statement is only partly true. The song "It's all coming back to me now" on the album I've mentioned was written by Jim Steinman, he's a musical composer.

Most known for his work as the behind the scenes guy for Meatloaf's Bat Out of Hell.  Also for an aborted attempt at co-songwriting and producing Def Leppard's Hysteria
"You can fight without ever winning, but never win without a fight."  Neil Peart  'Resist'

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #38 –
clipping and dynamic range aside, my other beef with popular music is how it's mixed in such a way that nothing really goes into the low bass or high treble.  Basslines become humming midranges, bassdrums are reduced to unexciting pulses, and trebles just become wishy washy 5khz-8khz sounds.  As several have mentioned, play it on a great stereo and it sounds as unexciting as a cheap boombox :/
Just one of the several reasons I don't bother with RIAA music anymore.
seanny.net

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #39 –
This refers to my previous post:

Quote
Quote

Quote

Limiting creates no distortions, but also kills the natural dynamics.



actually, limiting does create distortion. that is, it doesn't prevent distortion. in fact in many cases hard limiting makes matters worse. i have an album which is hard limited to just under fullscale yet there segments where as many as 200 consecutive samples are clipped. the distortion sounds exactly the same as if the waveform is clipped over fullscale. so, just throwing a look-ahead limiter into the mix doesn't eliminate clipping and it certainly doesn't prevent distortion.



Outscape, are you really sure of that? The basic difference between clipping and limiting/compression, it doesn't matter if hard or soft, is that clipping only affects samples above the clipping level. But the dynamical processes reduce the loudest peaks this way, that even the lowest samples of the peak (near 0) are affected. The lower samples are reduced in relation to the higher. So in your example, there seems to be both limiting and clipping. I know an overcompressed song sounds awful, but not distorted.


I've done some limiting & compression tests; with the programs that I use I actually receive no distortions:
Convert a clear (neither clipped nor limited or compressed) *.wav to 32bit float.
Normalize it to, say, +30 dB. Now it sounds hopelessly clipped, but it isn't.
Apply a very hard limiter to, say, 0 dB.
No distortions are audible or even visible.
So you receive the same reduction in dynamics, but no distortions. (Compared with the one that sounds clipped; it sounds exactly the same as if you would convert it down to 16bit.)
I know that I know nothing. But how can I then know that ?

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #40 –
I have to vote for a new worst album - "Jay-Z - The Black Album" . The whole album sounds like it was pushed 10db over what it should have been - the bass is totally ruined thoughout the entire album. Heres a pic of one song....



Track 4 - "Encore"

replaygain_track_gain = -12.46 dB
replaygain_track_peak = 0.999969
replaygain_album_gain = -11.10 dB
replaygain_album_peak = 0.999969

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #41 –
ouch
"You can fight without ever winning, but never win without a fight."  Neil Peart  'Resist'

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #42 –
http://members.cox.net/sppimley/Badly%20Cl...0Waveform-3.jpg

Here is a good example.  Now I forgot to take a snapshot of the beggining, but when zoomed the song has marginal clipping which I can stand.  For whatever reason that I cannot fathom there is an obviously stepped effect as the song has been limited more and more towards the end.  By the time you get to the end...it looks like this:
http://members.cox.net/sppimley/Badly%20Cl...0Waveform-2.jpg

As it is a really good song otherwise I just cannot understand why someone would butcher it during the recording process like that.  Notice the peak level is 93.8%, yet entire peaks of the song have been sliced flat well before they reach that.
"Have you ever been with a woman? It's like death. You moan, you scream and then you start to beg for mercy, for salvation"

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #43 –
ARTIST=Judas Priest
TITLE=Tyrant
ALBUM=Sad Wings Of Destiny
TRACKNUMBER=06
DATE=1976
GENRE=Metal
REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_PEAK=1.54149842
REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_GAIN=-7.53 dB
REPLAYGAIN_ALBUM_PEAK=1.54149842
REPLAYGAIN_ALBUM_GAIN=-8.97 dB


Yeah... I love Repertoire Records....

"We guarantee that our releases represent the best value for money in classic Rock & Pop Re-issues without any compromising on quality and information."

edit: keep in mind this file was compressed lossy - this may have introduced additional clipping.

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #44 –
I just bought a polish compilation called "In Goth We Trust", and surprisingly, few tracks are overcompressed, though most are from 2000 - 2002.
It seems that Poland still escapes the loudness war.

For example, this is one minute of audio from Artrosis - Kolej Rzeczy, 2002



EDIT : ...and save for the electronic sounds, this could be classified in "metal rock" !

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #45 –
Sorry, I realize that the above track is a bit misleading, since it is actually taken from the DVD Video (AC3 2.0, HeadAC3he, no compression, normalized to 100 %), not the audio CD.

Here are four tracks from the CD, which are still correct, exept the number 01, that is overcompressed (and clipped, I had to set the scale below 0.96 in MPC in order to avoid clipping warnings).

From left to right and up to down :
Released in 2000, 2002, 2000, 2003.