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Topic: Dead fidelity on modern CDs (Read 16602 times) previous topic - next topic
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Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Hi

First, I have to apologize for this a little bit long post, but the following is very important for me and one reason for joining Hydrogenaudio. I know there are already several discussions according to this, but I consider this problem to be the far biggest problem of modern music.

I'm copying music since now about ten years and I guess I have copied and analyzed at least several hundreds of CDs so far. There were examples from the beginning of commercial CDs (1982) until today. The problem I discovered is that since about the year 1992 CDs get lauder and lauder, I mean the year the CDs have been mastered. This comes along with clipping and dynamical limiting. They are used more and more often and also more and more strictly. They can appear alone or in combination. The newest Pop-CD I know that really seems neither to be clipped nor limited is Suraya - On nights like this (1997).

Note: I consider a song as being "clipped" or "limited" if only one sample of this song seems to be "clipped" or "limited", if you look at it in a wav editor. Then I call the sound quality of this song "bad", although one clipped or limited sample is never hearable. But once you have started with that, you'll soon end up with heavy clipping and hearable distortions. Limiting creates no distortions, but also kills the natural dynamics.

Are there any ways out of this sh...? I use declipping functions of some programs, but most of them make sound quality even worse. Even if you're an experienced user (I hope I am) and offer much time (I do), you need great effort to improve sound quality a little bit. So this can't be a general solution. I also know no program that is especially designed to repair dynamical limiting.

I want to name an example: I like many songs of Celine Dion, I think this art is comparable to classic. But unfortunately I know no CDs from her that aren't heavily clipped (especially All the way...a decade of song).

The result is that I buy no more any new-mastered CDs (and also no remastered CDs!). Sound quality is best on CDs that were mastered from about 1985 to about 1990 - no longer analogue recordings, but still properly mastered. Fortunately, this is my favorite time period for pop music.

My main question is: Why? Why are all modern Pop-CDs so badly mastered? I say Pop-CDs, because classical music (at least sometimes) seems to be better - how unfair. But you can also consider this to be a general discussion about bad sound quality on modern CDs.

Cheers
I know that I know nothing. But how can I then know that ?

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #1 –
hasnt this allready been covered that new cd's since the 90is sound worse.

then you need to provider evidence of any statement you make on this forum.  see the warning bar on my one. thats what happens.

then music from

om about 19XX to about 1990 - no longer analogue recordings, but still properly mastered. Fortunately, this is my favorite time period for pop music.

is the only good pop music anyway    nearly

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #2 –
Quote
then you need to provider evidence of any statement you make on this forum.  see the warning bar on my one. thats what happens.

Nobody but you, and maybe mods, can see your warning meter.



Quote
lauder and lauder

It's louder 
But you are right, anyway
I'm the one in the picture, sitting on a giant cabbage in Mexico, circa 1978.
Reseñas de Rock en Español: www.estadogeneral.com

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #3 –
Yes, we all wonder why newer CDs are mastered so poorly.

The answer is that producers want the music to be louder.

Quote
“So from my mouth to your ear, here’s the deal: We set out to make the loudest fucking rock and roll album that was humanly possible. No detail was too small, and by that I mean that everything, and I mean everything on the album is distorted by yours truly.” —Billy Corgan


Now, as to why that is, I'm baffled. A false perception of the ear is that the louder a recording, the better the quality. If you compare two samples, a quiet and a loud one, you may be tricked into thinking the loud one sounds better. (I read this somewhere here, I think I'll be backed up on this.)  But this is obviously not true.

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #6 –
Spinal Tap covered this best:

"This is a top to a, you know, what we use on stage, but it's very, very special because if you can see, the numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board."
"And most of these amps go up to ten. Does that mean it's... louder? Is it any louder?"
"Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here... all the way up... all the way up... all the way up. You're on ten on your guitar...where can you go from there? Where?"
"I don't know."
"Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is if we need that extra...push over the cliff...you know what we do?"
"Put it up to eleven."
"Eleven. Exactly. One louder."
"Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number, and make that a little louder?"
"[long silence] ...These go to eleven!"
–This is Spinal Tap


That about covers it.   
Nov schmoz kapop.

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #7 –
The issue of LOUDER IS BETTER (LIB) is only one problem with most (almost all) popular music (rock, pop, country, etc.). And most problems are purposeful as has been said of the LIB syndrome...although in my experience these recording techniques have been in use for a lot longer than is claimed about LIB. 

Recording engineers have always produced popular music so that it sounds reasonably good on the lowest-common-denominator equipment (radios, car audio regardless of cost, boom-boxes, and just about any consumer home stereo from Sony, Pioneer, Bose, etc.). If you choose your music based solely on what you like in one of the pop genres, your likely to be sorely dissapointed in the sonic quality of the recording when listening on truly mid- to high-end gear.

Ever wonder why audiophiles listen mostly to jazz and classical? It's not entirely because of disdain for rock music. It's because so few rock recordings can hold up under critical listening. Sure...play it in the car on road trips or listen to it on computer speakers or on a boom-box...maybe even the cheap home stereo as background music...but keep it off the "gear". A much higher percentage of jazz and classical recordings are excellent.

I'd love to be able to listen to some of my favorite rock bands on the "good stuff", but I just can't stand the sonic quality of most CDs in the popular music categories. When I do run across a good pop recording, I feel like I've found a diamond in a pile of sh*t. It's a shame, but that's how it is and has been for a very, very long time.

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #8 –
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Limiting creates no distortions, but also kills the natural dynamics.

actually, limiting does create distortion. that is, it doesn't prevent distortion. in fact in many cases hard limiting makes matters worse. i have an album which is hard limited to just under fullscale yet there segments where as many as 200 consecutive samples are clipped. the distortion sounds exactly the same as if the waveform is clipped over fullscale. so, just throwing a look-ahead limiter into the mix doesn't eliminate clipping and it certainly doesn't prevent distortion.
Be healthy, be kind, grow rich and prosper

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #9 –
I always thought limiting was distortion because the output is not the same as the input. But I am not an audio professional, so I might have missunderstood the definition.

Edit:  everything
flac > schiit modi > schiit magni > hd650

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #10 –
yes... i certainly don't appreciate excessive hard limiting.

the thing that gets me is people who don't notice it don't care, and people who do notice it abhor it.  so why do it?

i've never heard anyone go "wow!  that CD is soooo cool, just listen to how loud it is!"  in my experience there's a dial provided on even low-end gear for making a CD louder.

unfortunately there's no way to regain the original dynamics that i know of.  limiting is basically compressing at infinity to one above the threshold.  if it was 4:1 or even 30:1 there might be a chance that hitting the right settings on a compressor could expand out something approaching the original, but when infinities are involved, compressors choke.

i really feel like punching the people that decide to excessively hard limit.  perhaps it's an attempt to sell the overpriced vinyl releases that sometimes come out with the CD.  it's a sad situation when the vinyl actually sounds better than the CD.  it's like digital never happened.

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #11 –
Unfortunately, vinyls are now cut so loud that it's a miracle that the needle can stay in the groove. The sound is completely distorded too, but rather like a woofer that would be driven too loud.
I'll post examples later, when I have the time to record, edit and compress some samples (I mean into MP3).

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #12 –
what's even more annoying is that hardware man's are probably taking those hot CDs as standard loudness level for the headphone output of their mp3 players (hello Euro iPod), and replaygained stuff sounds way too silent on them even with volume cranked up

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #13 –
Quote
what's even more annoying is that hardware man's are probably taking those hot CDs as standard loudness level for the headphone output of their mp3 players (hello Euro iPod), and replaygained stuff sounds way too silent on them even with volume cranked up

Well, a stronger output signal would decrease the life of the battery, so there's more than industry-standard-volume-levels that governs portables' output loudness.

But, quite frankly, I do think the Euro iPod's volume limit is absurd.  It's like saying "we shouldn't allow sharp knives, because they're not needed for typical day-to-day cutting & are only going to hurt people."  Yeah, good work, let's not take into account anything outside of the norm.

I guess some folks forgot that music even has the ability to be quiet? (Is it law in some European countries to not allow devices above a certain volume amplification?  I think I remember hearing so.)

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #14 –
I'm so bookmarking that article! 

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #15 –
Quote
I like many songs of Celine Dion, I think this art is comparable to classic.

Does he get a warning for that? Mods!

edit: 'tis just a joke ok, lighten up

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #16 –
As has been mentioned before, this "loudness" issue need not apply only to newly-cut recordings, but remastered ones as well. I listen to mostly classic rock and have noticed that newer compilations are much louder, feature a higher level of dynamic compression, and even clip on occasion in comparison to older CD pressings and my vinyl. And this is OLD music we are talking about here, as in 1960-1985, which is sad! Will future generations even know what properly-mastered recordings sound like?

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #17 –
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As has been mentioned before, this "loudness" issue need not apply only to newly-cut recordings, but remastered ones as well.


Only too true.

Bob Dylan "Bringing It All Back Home" remaster, Album gain: -8.48 dB

sigh

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #18 –
You want a true example of this?  Check out St. Anger from Metallica, talk about pushed to the limit, but I suppose the quality wouldn't have been hindered that much because of the purposely bad mix.

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #19 –
That's so damn true....
Try to listen Beatles original sound album songs and hear the same songs in the "red and blue" double albums remastered collection....
The Paul's bass lines are pumped to the limit....
Classick tracks like Come together are not the same thing of a time...

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #20 –
This is a topic that I care deeply about. I am actually about to write an e-mail to Incubus, even though it might not get to the actual band, and probably nothing will be done about it, about this very subject. I am plain sick of listening to CDs on my dad's $20000.00 hifi system, just for it to spit noise back at me because the damn record company demanded that the record be very very loud. Audioslave's album literally hurts my ears.

Plus, I was also looking forward to buying Vapour Trails, because my friend sent me a track off of it the other day. I'll still buy it, but it sucks that I won't be able to do some serious listening to it.

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #21 –
Quote
Plus, I was also looking forward to buying Vapour Trails, because my friend sent me a track off of it the other day. I'll still buy it, but it sucks that I won't be able to do some serious listening to it.

Do not buy it!

Not buying is your strongest and only vote.

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #22 –
Quote
You want a true example of this?  Check out St. Anger from Metallica, talk about pushed to the limit, but I suppose the quality wouldn't have been hindered that much because of the purposely bad mix.

For purposes:
Metallica - St.Anger
replaygain_album_gain = -9.93 dB
replaygain_album_peak = 1.269472

Track 3 and 10 excluded from Replaygain test because I dont have them.

Mat

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #23 –
And let us not forget Audioslave.

replaygain_track_gain = -9.67 dB
replaygain_track_peak = 1.099151
replaygain_album_gain = -9.84 dB
replaygain_album_peak = 1.190704

Not only is it way over the limit, but it also is just plain distorted. I can not even listen to this CD, and I love the music.
flac > schiit modi > schiit magni > hd650

Dead fidelity on modern CDs

Reply #24 –
Quote
Quote
Plus, I was also looking forward to buying Vapour Trails, because my friend sent me a track off of it the other day. I'll still buy it, but it sucks that I won't be able to do some serious listening to it.

Do not buy it!

Not buying is your strongest and only vote.

I'm still going to buy it man, it's great music, just not great quality. My way of "voting" is going up to the record company's building and egging it. And instead of listening to it on the $20000.00 system, i'm just going to listen to it on $90 comp speakers