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Topic: Tough nut to crack? (Read 7490 times) previous topic - next topic
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Tough nut to crack?

It happens... time and time again it happens on some "audiophile" forum.  Someone asks a question about using a sound card for playback, or for digital recording, or something like that.  Some self-appointed "expert" drops in and states "NO!  Don't use a sound card for xxxx, the levels of noise inside computers are terrible and will grunge up the audio, guaranteed.  Use standalone gear only."  This is often met with a chorus of agreements from other like-minded posters.

Usually I'll note that the noise floor of a quality soundcard is generally better than that of CD (~100 dB or better), i.e. completely inaudible.  Or that the DACs/ADCs in quality soundcards are at least as good as those used in a lot of standalone gear.  And that standalone gear also suffers from EMI from power supplies, digital displays, internal chips, CD/laser mechanisms and motors, etc.

What I get back is usually a doting/patronizing response like "Gee, that's very interesting.  Maybe it's true, I've never really used a sound card for xxxx.  Nevertheless, I still recommend you stick with standalone equipment, blah, blah..."

Anyone think there's a chance of cracking this nut, or is it just too ingrained in the "audiophile" mindset?  I think Creative Labs is at least partially to blame for some of the lousy cards they've foisted on the public.  It still drives me crazy though, especially given how often this topic comes up on various audio-related forums.

Tough nut to crack?

Reply #1 –
The hiss of my old Creative Soundblaster AWE 64 Gold masked differences at about the 14th bit of resolution.  When I got the Audiophile 2496, I was able to hear differences at the 14th and 15th bit, which is probably about the limits of what I am able to hear.  And that was only after I had disabled all my fans and gotten the house as quiet as I could.

Aside from the very small difference in hiss, I never noticed any qualitative difference between the two cards.

I wonder what those guys are listening to that they are unhappy with their soundcards?

Anyway, it's really hard to change anybody's opinion about what sounds good, but it's up to you if you want to try.

I'd probably guess that the soundcard's not the limiting factor in most PC setups:  it's probably the computer noise and the output transducers (headphones, speakers) that determine the majority of the quality, assuming really obvious things like IRQ clashes and bad resampling aren't munging things up.

ff123

Tough nut to crack?

Reply #2 –
Quote
I wonder what those guys are listening to that they are unhappy with their soundcards?

I don't think that's it -- I think it's a preexisting prejudice that's unrelated to actually listening to (or measuring) anything.  Just the idea that "soundcards are bad" as far as sound quality is concerned, along with some vague notion of massive EMI inside the PC destroying any semblance of good sound.

Maybe it comes also from the typical setups a lot of people have (cheap, low-end PC speakers) and the fact that sound cards are often used for gaming.

Tough nut to crack?

Reply #3 –
The mentalities evolve slowly. In the 90's, most widespread cards suffered from very much noise. Then, the SB live came with quite no noise, but a discutable sound quality. Only since 2 years have really good card been sold to the public.
That's a short time for people to change their minds, conditioned by 10 years of crappy computer sound. Here I only speak about basic soundcards for home computers.

However, I thing that there is still a problem with current soundcards : the line out is often a 6.5mm jack, when it's not a 3.5 mm jack. In itself, it doesn't cause problems to the sound, but, to quote a home studio magazine (called "home studio"), not interested in sound quality but in reliability and solidity, the "TRS" jack is the "sound engineer nightmare", because of its small contact aera, sentitive to dirt, oxydation or wearing, lack of cable and plug holding (you pull the cable straight, the plug is unplugged, you pull it aside, the cable/plug solderings can break), and the signal is connected before the ground, causing noises.
About the 3.5 jack "unsatisfied with increasing its elder's defects, it adds a legendary fragility". They state all this in comparison with the XLR standard.

I agree with their 3.5mm criticism : the plug has always to be turned, puched, and pulled in all direction for one minute in order to get the sound in both channels ! I also had all my 6.5 jack-to-cinch adapters break internally. I must fold them in a given direction in order to get some sound.

I think that for soundcard to be recognized equal to a standalone player, they should feature at least CINCH line outs, if not XLR. Of course for the consumer market, it would be CINCH.

Tough nut to crack?

Reply #4 –
Quote
I agree with their 3.5mm criticism : the plug has always to be turned, puched, and pulled in all direction for one minute in order to get the sound in both channels ! I also had all my 6.5 jack-to-cinch adapters break internally. I must fold them in a given direction in order to get some sound.

That's why I replaced my last SB PCI128 (before the current one) -- the 1/8" TRS minijack was becoming very unreliable from a lot of plugging/unplugging.  The solution used on more and more high end cards (RCA-type female jacks) seems to me to be a good one, and will connect to nearly anything except headphones.  Not sure what CINCH is, I'm not familiar with the term (could be USA vs. Europe thing).

Tough nut to crack?

Reply #5 –
It seems the RCA and cinch are one and the same.

This link has a lot of nice connector pictures, including audio.


Connectors

Tough nut to crack?

Reply #6 –
Cinch is the official name of the standard, like XLR. RCA is just a trademark, like Neutrix. But Cinch plugs are very often refered to as RCA plugs.

Tough nut to crack?

Reply #7 –
Umm, what forum could you be referring to?  B)

Another sign is the retail situation. Traditional audiophile equipment has its own path. Soundcards, etc. usually flow through CompUSA, etc.

Small changes happening though with companies like Computers And Music. Hopefully there will be more of this type of business in the future.

Tough nut to crack?

Reply #8 –
You wouldn't be talking about head-fi, fewtch, would you? :)

I don't think this "nut" needs to be cracked. Rabid audiophiles are better left alone; as for the ones a little more knowledgeable and open-minded, they need no help or direction.

Tough nut to crack?

Reply #9 –
I don't think theres much you can do except hope that time will dispel the prejudice, unless you have the rescources to get hold of and benchmark a wide variety of internal/external hardware for signal/noise ratios...and then it'll still be an uphill struggle, 'cause people will just ignore things that don't suit them.

unless you can recruit a load of people to support you in the forums, of course 

BTW regarding the Cinch/RCA thing : they are both company names. It's obvious that RCA Phono came about due to RCA-Victor popularising it as a audio connector on their record players, but Cinch comes from the company of the same name, a major connector jack manufacturer for the last 80 years.

Oh, and theres more than one Cinch jack - this is  the Cinch (jones type) power connector http://www.action-electronics.com/cinch.htm
Hip-hop looks like it's having more fun than you are - Chuck D

Tough nut to crack?

Reply #10 –
Quote
You wouldn't be talking about head-fi, fewtch, would you?

I don't think this "nut" needs to be cracked. Rabid audiophiles are better left alone; as for the ones a little more knowledgeable and open-minded, they need no help or direction.

Head-Fi and a couple other forums as well.  And not just in terms of output but cases of people insisting on standalone CD recorders for A->D recording -- not because they're easier to use, but because of "all the noise and EMI inside a computer."  Despite the >100dB noise floor of the semi-pro sound cards, and all the extra capabilities when using a PC with good audio software, cheaper CD-R blanks, faster burning, etc.

I guess some people have never heard of "shielding" ... ?

Tough nut to crack?

Reply #11 –
I just switched from a bad card to a M-Audio Audiophile USB... wonder what's the next problem after "internal noise"? 

Tough nut to crack?

Reply #12 –
Quote
I just switched from a bad card to a M-Audio Audiophile USB... wonder what's the next problem after "internal noise"?  

You're probably doing better than I am (with the internal Audiophile 24/96).  I just measured residual noise on the analog line-in jacks with nothing connected, using Cool Edit's Analyze/Statistics function:

~ -96dB (RMS)
Peak amplitude: -86dB

Not quite as good as the reported (A-weighted, I think) 100.4dB dynamic range, but I doubt anybody will be bothered by a -86dB noise floor.

Edit -- fwiw, the SB PCI128 "Record In" (with volume down all the way) measures a respectable -85dB RMS, and peak amplitude of about -72dB.  Perhaps with some mu-metal or similar shielding [carefully] wrapped around the cards internally, those figures could be improved.

Anyway -- I suppose the next most reported problem on aforementioned audio forums would be a "cheap DAC" or "cheap ADC." 

BTW I just checked out the Audiophile USB -- pretty nice!  Now I wish I'd gotten one of those instead of the internal card...    That headphone jack in particular would be very handy.  Can you get headphone output from the analog line in jacks (mixer or directly)?

Tough nut to crack?

Reply #13 –
Hello, this my first reply.
But what if that same old soundcard (Hoontech XG) has a digital in/out cinch connector and i put these on a old but very good sounding Marantz DD-92 (DCC).
Everything sounds much much better.

Tough nut to crack?

Reply #14 –
Quote
Hello, this my first reply.
But what if that same old soundcard (Hoontech XG) has a digital in/out cinch connector and i put these on a old but very good sounding Marantz DD-92 (DCC).
Everything sounds much much better.

Of course, digital out to a higher quality DAC and equipment (better than what's on the card) will sound better.  Good reason to have a card with digital in/outs.

Tough nut to crack?

Reply #15 –
Quote
Can you get headphone output from the analog line in jacks (mixer or directly)?

Headphone out from a line in? I'm confused.

Tough nut to crack?

Reply #16 –
Quote
Quote
Can you get headphone output from the analog line in jacks (mixer or directly)?

Headphone out from a line in? I'm confused.

Yes, in other words routing the analog line-in to the headphone output (so it can be amplified & listened to) -- or at least, the card's mixer to the headphone output (seems very likely the latter case is possible).

With the internal card, you can route analog line in directly to analog out with the patchbay/router tab on the control panel app (H/W Out 1/2 to H/W In 1/2).  Stuff like this is easy with an internal card, but maybe not with a USB interface.

Tough nut to crack?

Reply #17 –
Quote
~ -96dB (RMS)
Peak amplitude: -86dB

FYI: I get the same figures here with my audiophile.

Back on topic: Anyone seen the EAC yahoo groups recently? The amount of unsubstantiated twaddle there is becoming unbearable!
daefeatures.co.uk

Tough nut to crack?

Reply #18 –
Quote
Yes, in other words routing the analog line-in to the headphone output (so it can be amplified & listened to) -- or at least, the card's mixer to the headphone output (seems very likely the latter case is possible).

With the internal card, you can route analog line in directly to analog out with the patchbay/router tab on the control panel app (H/W Out 1/2 to H/W In 1/2).  Stuff like this is easy with an internal card, but maybe not with a USB interface.

Yes I believe this is possible, though the AP USB Control Panel (at least in OSX) is vastly simplified to the Audiophile PCI (check the pdf manual at M-Audio). I can test this and get back to you.

Tough nut to crack?

Reply #19 –
Quote
~ -96dB (RMS)
Peak amplitude: -86dB

Not quite as good as the reported (A-weighted, I think) 100.4dB dynamic range


It must be the dither.

Quote
fwiw, the SB PCI128 "Record In" (with volume down all the way) measures a respectable -85dB RMS, and peak amplitude of about -72dB.


-87 RMS and -73 peak db here with an SB64 PCI V. Line in only, unplugged.
-88 RMS and -72 peak db for the playback. Wav channel only. Recording level calibrated on a -6 db sine. Recorded with Sony DTC 55ES.
The Sony input itself :
-90 RMS and -76 peak with the ampli on an shutdowned source.
-76 and -72 db (left channel), and -85 and -76 db (right channel) line in unplugged !

All measurments done on 10 seconds of noise exept the "shutdowned source", over 5 seconds only.

Tough nut to crack?

Reply #20 –
Have any of you considered measuring your soundcard quality with RMAA?

http://audio.rightmark.org
- Eugene 'HMage' Bujak

Tough nut to crack?

Reply #21 –
TerraTec Aureon 7.1 at 32bit int (doesn't seem to support RMAA 24bit format) 96kHz,
Network card busy - RightMark Audio Analyzer 5.1

Frequency response 40-15k: +0.02, -0.15 dB
Frequency response 20-20k: +0.02, -0.54 dB
Noise RMS: -86.7 dB
Noise RMS (A weighted): -91.4 dB
Peak value: -72.7 dB
No DC offset
Dynamic range: 86.8 dB
Dynamic range (A): 91.4 dB
THD: 0.007%
THD+noise: 0.011%
THD+noise (A): 0.009%
IMD+noise: 0.013%
IMD+noise (A): 0.008%
Crosstalk@100: -81.5 dB
Crosstalk@1k: R2L:-82.1 dB L2R:-72.1 dB
Crosstalk@10k: R2L:-61.4 dB L2R:-52.1 dB

This crosstalk looks freaky.
Can it be caused by my poor loopback cable?
I can't hear it when playing the test through my headphones!
ruxvilti'a

Tough nut to crack?

Reply #22 –
Quote
Quote
~ -96dB (RMS)
Peak amplitude: -86dB

Not quite as good as the reported (A-weighted, I think) 100.4dB dynamic range


It must be the dither.

I suspect you're right, if you mean the card itself is adding dither (?)... when I amplified and listened to the noise, it sounded exactly like white noise.  In the case of the SB PCI128 however, it sounds like a high pitched whine, as like EMI from fans, etc.

Tough nut to crack?

Reply #23 –
Here the noise sounds like white noise + low frequency 'taptaptap' - probably my network card is interfering. ~70dB

BTW, Cool Edit uses WaveOut interface for recording...
I'll test it again with Samplitude.
ruxvilti'a

Tough nut to crack?

Reply #24 –
AstralStorm, can you post the graphs and .sav file from your RMAA results?

And yes, the weakest link here might be your loopback audio cable.
- Eugene 'HMage' Bujak