A Cactus Datashield experience

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A Cactus Datashield experience

2003-07-20 21:19:13

I got my first protected CD this week

It is Kraftwerk - Tour de France 2003, CD single
Cactus Datashield 200.0.4

As usual it comes with a software player playing 48 kbps files.

Winamp playback
Since the CD is multisession, the audio playback must be done with the "play/audio CD" command.

Memorex DVDMaxx 1648 : plays OK, but the second track is imroperly timed, leading to an ASPI error after the playback is finished (trying to read the lead-out).
Yamaha CRW3200EW : Plays OK. Same problem after playback. Displays the data track in addition

EAC Extraction
All tests done in burst mode because of the errors introduced by the protection.

Memorex DVDMaxx 1648
Track 1 CRC OK.
Track 2 CRC #, then OK extracting a second time.

Teac e540
Displays 3 data tracks.
Retrieve native TOC -> displays 2 data tracks
Detect TOC manually -> OK (two audio and one data track)
Both tracks CRC OK

Yamaha CRW3200EW
Tracks 1 data, track 2 audio, track 3 data
Reload CD -> Same thing
Retrieve native TOC -> Same thing without track 3
Detect TOC manually -> OK
Slow extraction (4x)
Out of 5 extractions, one CRC was return 3 times, and two other ones were returned.
I kept two files with two different CRC : there are 37 different samples, the highest difference being 22 steps (-63 db)

Clics
No severe clic in track 1. Several noticeable ones in track 2 (about 10 clicks).

These clics varies from drive to drive. For example the clic at 17 seconds into track 2 is weak on the Teac, medium in the Memorex, and strong in the Yamaha.
This correlates exactly with their C2 error correction ability : 3 bytes with full C1 frame lost in case of error for the Yahama, 4 bytes for the other drives, with C1 frames lost for the Memorex only.
This also explains the CRC mistmatches (better error correction leading to more errors corrected), and the slow ripping on the Yamaha (weakest error correction : the reading is hindered with a lot of C2 errors).

These major clics don't appear on the hifi player (Yamaha CDX860, C2 correction 2 bytes with wrong C1 frames kept). The interpolation works better (up to 8 consecutive samples instead of 1 for the PC drives).

However many quiet clicks can be heard everywhere, even on the hifi players. They must come from the data destroyed by the protection interacting with the regular error correction.
Here's the beginning of track 1, captured from the SPDIF output of the Yamaha CDX 860 CD Player. The small clicks are audible thanks to Kraftwerk's pure sounds.

Sample (MPC, 6 seconds, 125 kB)

Funny detail, the CD doesn't feature the "Compact Disc Digital Audio" logo anywhere Philips really made them removing it.

Oh, by the way, I can't perform anymore tests on it, I returned it to the store and got my money back. The saleman was angry : "They're killing the record market with their stupid protections !!! There was even a trial that was won by a consumer, everyone should do the same !
-I can't do it, it was written on it, I didn't see it
-Where ? I don't see it. There ? It written "DVD, PC compatible"
-No, the last line, at the bottom
-What ? You speak english ? I don't speak english, I don't know what's written here. Playback ? Wow, great, it's a playback CD, I'll be able to sing over it !..."

A Cactus Datashield experience

Reply #1 – 2003-07-20 21:31:55

Igonore the first part below, after posting the text reappeared??!!

Is this a browser error?? Your post finished at the sample you provided, but when i went to quote you, i noticed the following addidtional text in the quote box, that wasn't in your original post. I closed Mozilla and cleared my cache but no change> Here is the text missing in original thread:

Code: [Select]

Funny detail, the CD doesn't feature the "Compact Disc Digital Audio" logo anywhere  :lol: Philips really made them removing it.

Oh, by the way, I can't perform anymore tests on it, I returned it to the store and got my money back. The saleman was angry : "They're killing the record market with their stupid protections !!! There was even a trial that was won by a consumer, everyone should do the same ! 
-I can't do it, it was written on it, I didn't see it
-Where ? I don't see it. There ? It written "DVD, PC compatible"
-No, the last line, at the bottom
-What ? You speak english, I don't speak english, I don't know what's written here. Playback ? Wow, great, it's a playback CD, I'll be able to sing over it !..."

Seems very odd!!!!??

Anyway, i totally agree it should have been returned. I have the Foo FIghters latest album, not sure on the protection, but i can hear clicks through that as well, on a file EAC reported correct, and on a standalone, i can't belive they are intentional. That was the last protected CD i'll buy,

Kristian

A Cactus Datashield experience

Reply #2 – 2003-07-20 21:32:50

I hope it is protected in my country I will go out and purchase one (a clear case where protection has increased sales by 1!).

It should be possible to create a ripping mode that rips 1 sector at a time and any induced error should be interpolated, just as a normal CD player would.

A Cactus Datashield experience

Reply #3 – 2003-07-20 21:59:23

Sorry, Kritip, I edited my post just after having posted it. I though I was fast enough. As a moderator, I can choose to add the "edited by" line or not, I'd better turn it on.

A Cactus Datashield experience

Reply #4 – 2003-07-20 22:11:05

*shakes head* I wonder when those companies would realize there's nothing they could do about ripping and music sharing. Their doom is inevitable. If there's an easier and cheaper way than CD for music distribution (i.e. internet), their only option is to make it more attractive to download from them and pay (by releasing them in 24 bit/96kHz for instance).

A Cactus Datashield experience

Reply #5 – 2003-07-20 23:02:42

[conspiracy mode on]
Are They putting copy-protection on cds to make people angry versus CD and pushing them to SACD / "the next big thing" ?
[conspiracy mode off]

I've recently buyed Radiohead's "Hail to the thief", copyprotected.
Don't know what type of protection, but there is, and i'm really angry.
Not only that cd want install some sort of audio player on my pc, but it even doesn't play on my "old" Technics portable cd player nor again on my Technics stereo deck: cracs and pops all the time

It plays only on my dvd player with apparently no clics (haven't fully tested anyway).

So I was thinking: what about connecting my dvd player to sound card line in, recording at high sample rate/resolution with cool edit, then convert the waveform down to 44100/16 bit ?

Any suggestion?

Tia & bye

A Cactus Datashield experience

Reply #6 – 2003-07-20 23:41:41

Although Philips made them to remove Compact Disc Digital Audio logo, I think they should have forced them to use different packaging as well - like DVD Audio box but say square or round (or whichever is more expesive to produce).
On Friday went to a HMV store and almost jumped on a 2cd remaster of David Bowie Alladin Sane, but when I turned the box around I saw those stupid words "... Copy Protection Technology". That's stupid, this CD does have a limited market on its own (since most fans already have the original CD and new new ones will buy regular 1-disc version since it is 2 times cheaper) and in addition to that they limit it by adding copy protection..
I wonder if Bowie played any role in allowing to put this crap on his CDs, I thought he was quite progressive compared to say Metallica snobs or other mentally ill artists.

A Cactus Datashield experience

Reply #7 – 2003-07-27 03:59:36

I forgot : the DAT, fed by the CD Player, displayed "BLOK" (or something like that), meaning that SCMS was set on "copy forbidden".

Thus the CD could not be recorded in digital from a hifi to SCMS compliant soundcard digital inputs (SB Live etc).

A Cactus Datashield experience

Reply #8 – 2003-07-27 05:45:34

Quote

I forgot : the DAT, fed by the CD Player, displayed "BLOK" (or something like that), meaning that SCMS was set on "copy forbidden".

Thus the CD could not be recorded in digital from a hifi to SCMS compliant soundcard digital inputs (SB Live etc).

Isn't it possible to start recording on the DAT with the digital line unplugged, and when it starts recording blank audio plug the cable back into the recorder? I used to do this w/ my ASUS video capture card when it wouldn't allow me to put my VHS movies on the computer.

A Cactus Datashield experience

Reply #9 – 2003-07-27 10:40:38

I can't test, the heads are dead. I'm not sure that it will allow to record with no digital signal at all.

A Cactus Datashield experience

Reply #10 – 2003-07-27 13:32:47

Quote

However many quiet clicks can be heard everywhere, even on the hifi players. They must come from the data destroyed by the protection interacting with the regular error correction.

Could it be the result of bad mastering too?

The track 1 you ripped with the Memorex DVDMaxx 1648, was that click free?

A Cactus Datashield experience

Reply #11 – 2003-07-27 14:23:51

Quote

I forgot : the DAT, fed by the CD Player, displayed "BLOK" (or something like that), meaning that SCMS was set on "copy forbidden".

Thus the CD could not be recorded in digital from a hifi to SCMS compliant soundcard digital inputs (SB Live etc).

There are recording devices that allow you to defeat SCMS, trouble is that they cost about 5 times as much as regular devices. The high end TASCAM gear (meant for professional use) allows SCMS defeat for certain.

Quite a few professional sound cards ignore SCMS as well. Infact anything that has AES/EBU inputs (nearly the same protocol as SP/DIF but at different signalling levels and over a balanced connection) ignores it as AES/EBU doesn't support the subcodes which SCMS is carried on.

The other much cheaper way of doing it is to buy a small converter box (which retail for about 100 UKP over here) which regenerates the S/PDIF signal without the SCMS codes and plug it between your digial devices.

A Cactus Datashield experience

Reply #12 – 2003-07-27 21:39:50

Quote

There are recording devices that allow you to defeat SCMS,

Yes, and fortunately there are also consumer cards that ignore SCMS too. The Marian Marc 2, for example, as well as the Terratec DMX 6fire if I'm not mistaken (this was posted here, I'm not certin of the model but I think it's the 6fire). It is also probable that other Terratec (EWX, DMX SoundSystem...) and M-Audio cards also ignore SCMS.

Quote

Could it be the result of bad mastering too?

The track 1 you ripped with the Memorex DVDMaxx 1648, was that click free?

Yes it could be mastering. An old CD of classical music features the same kind of clicks. And there are passages that are click free (but it could be because of uneven error rate on the CD). Expo2000 (no protection) is click free.
The clicks are the same with the four readers tested.

The only way to know is to compare the sample I posted with a sample from a CD that came from a different factory (even if it's protected too, the clics wouldn't be at the same place).

A Cactus Datashield experience

Reply #13 – 2003-07-28 11:09:56

Quote

Quote
There are recording devices that allow you to defeat SCMS,

Yes, and fortunately there are also consumer cards that ignore SCMS too. The Marian Marc 2, for example, as well as the Terratec DMX 6fire if I'm not mistaken (this was posted here, I'm not certin of the model but I think it's the 6fire).

Terratec DMX 6Fire has the option to filter out SCMS from digital in. Don't know about other Terractec cards though...

A Cactus Datashield experience

Reply #14 – 2003-08-08 18:58:22

I've just got the French pressing of Tour De France Soundtracks.

I'd like someone to post the same sample as this one, or at least check if his CD has the same audible clicks :

Clicks.mpc (220 kB)

It's Tour de France Etape 3 from 3'20" to 3'30"

The inner ring number of the CD is
EMI UDEN 5917102 @ 1
More inside, there is also
IFPI LO46
And, stamped onto the polycarbonate
1-1-4-NL

A Cactus Datashield experience

Reply #15 – 2003-08-24 06:34:09

I have the German pressing of the full album (also copy protected) and it appears to have the same clicks. Exactly the same codes as your french pressing Pio except "1-2-3-NL" stamp in the plastic. Was there any other times people heard clicks in? I didn't even notice those until I checked specifically for them. Other quiet passages in the same song had none that I could find. Maybe when my grandparents leave and I can crank up the volume to my normal (deafening) level I'll notice more. As far as ripping...well I had absolutely no problem with Tour de France Soundtracks. I'm assuming they wouldn't use a different copy protection for the album as they used on the single, right?. EAC in secure mode copied it at a noticeably slower speed (about 8x instead of the normal 19-20x with C2 enabled) but appeared to have no real trouble. Personally I would prefer the album without those faint clicks but so far I wouldn't consider them annoying enough I would return the disc over.

Drive used:
NEC NR-7800A

[Off-topic] Any purpose in buying the single if you own the album?[/Off-topic]

A Cactus Datashield experience

Reply #16 – 2003-08-24 06:45:36

Have you tried ripping it in secure mode without C2? I would imagine you won't get any clicks in that case, as without C2 enabled it won't be relying on the drive's (unreliable) handling of reporting C2 errors.

A Cactus Datashield experience

Reply #17 – 2003-08-24 07:07:53

It seems to depend heavily on the drive. My dvd-rom (NEC DR-5800A) Absolutely dies trying to access the disc. In Windows Media Player I get some message telling me to check the cd if it's scratched or dirty! The drive I used to rip it plays fine (with the small clicks in a few places) but it takes a while for the drive to recognize the cd.

A big DOH! I turned C2 correction off sometime the other day. So that's why it ripped so much slower. And it also proves that C2 isn't the culprit for those pops/clicks we hear. So...does that mean it is part of the audio itself?

A Cactus Datashield experience

Reply #18 – 2003-08-24 07:19:50

well, not necessarily, but it's possible that it's just in the audio itself. It's also possible that your drive's reading the errors in the same way every time so that EAC thinks it got a good read, since EAC looks for the same data occuring 8 times over 16 read attempts and once it sees 8 reads giving the same data it assumes it is correct data. If EAC's happy with the rip, you could always use Deglitch on it afterwards to get rid of the clicks.

On a related note, I just picked up a new burner last week, a LiteOn 52/32/52, and it seems to be just great for ripping Cactus Data Shield discs. I got the new Jane's Addiction CD when it came out a few weeks ago, and ripping it with my older LiteOn, a 24/10/40, took about 2 hours to rip. It came out just fine without any clicks etc, but man that was a long rip. And it was reporting errors and rereading to correct them pretty much ever 7-10 seconds worth of playtime. This new drive never goes through EAC's rereading process (where the little red dots light up to show it's trying to get a good read) at all, it seems they've beefed up the firmware to read these discs better. It only took about 18 minutes to read it with the new drive too, which is still slow, but certainly better than 2 hours. I'm pretty happy with the drive, was pretty cheap. $85Cdn. Spits out a full 80min disc in about 2:15 too, gotta like that, hehe.

<edit> here's why it takes so long to read...comes pre-scratched for you so you don't have to scratch the disc up yourself to get skips and pops heh

Jane's Addiction - Strays (Cactus Data Shield)

Janet Jackson - All For You (unprotected)

Jane's Addiction - Strays (CDR backup after ripping with EAC)

A Cactus Datashield experience

Reply #19 – 2003-08-24 08:48:48

Months ago I ripped the Blind Guardian Live CD which was protected with cactus data shield 200 (I don't know the exact version)...and yes, there are some clicks throughout the 2 cds...so it seems that your suppositions are true. These clicks are linked with the copy protection and this is not good coz it means lower quality also when you normally play the disc in a cd player!

And I'm angry becoz for the price we are required to pay today for a single cd we should have at least maximum quality...but we have clicks

A Cactus Datashield experience

Reply #20 – 2003-08-24 10:48:54

I managed to get a good copy of 'Strays' using my DVD drive(not sure of the brand), while my CDRW simply gave a lot of clicks! It did take a while though (~15mins).

A Cactus Datashield experience

Reply #21 – 2003-08-24 13:30:27

Quote from: Societal Eclipse,Aug 24 2003, 08:34 AM

I have the German pressing of the full album (also copy protected) and it appears to have the same clicks. Exactly the same codes as your french pressing Pio except "1-2-3-NL" stamp in the plastic.

Unfortunately, it might well be the same pressing (i.e. same glass master). It doesn't rule out the possibility of CDS200 causing clicks.

Quote from: Societal Eclipse,Aug 24 2003, 08:34 AM

Was there any other times people heard clicks in?

Yes, there are some at many other places, but many of them can be mistaken with clipping in the mastering process (The voice saying "Régénération"), but the ones I chose were the strongest ones, and don't sound related to any obvious clipping.

Quote from: Societal Eclipse,Aug 24 2003, 08:34 AM

I didn't even notice those until I checked specifically for them.

Actually, the clicks are audible because Kraftwerk's sounds are very pure and transient-free. They would be probably inaudible in a pop music track.

Quote from: Societal Eclipse,Aug 24 2003, 08:34 AM

Other quiet passages in the same song had none that I could find.

Yes, I confirm.

Quote from: Societal Eclipse,Aug 24 2003, 08:34 AM

I'm assuming they wouldn't use a different copy protection for the album as they used on the single, right?.

The protection on the CD-signle behaves exactly the same.

Quote from: Societal Eclipse,Aug 24 2003, 08:34 AM

[Off-topic] Any purpose in buying the single if you own the album?[/Off-topic]

No. It features shortened version of Tour de France Etape 1 and Tour de France Etape 2, nothing more. I don't know the CD Maxi single, I only owned the 2-tracks CD single.

Quote from: _Shorty,Aug 24 2003, 08:45 AM

Have you tried ripping it in secure mode without C2? I would imagine you won't get any clicks in that case, as without C2 enabled it won't be relying on the drive's (unreliable) handling of reporting C2 errors.

EAC can't correct CDS200 errors in any mode. They are completely uncorrectable.
With C2, they are detected, and left uncorrected. Without C2, they are not even detected, since, as Tigre, Jean-Luc, and my tests showed, CDS200 errors are 99 % consistent (the 1% accounting for one or two difference among several hundreds of C2 errors, and for inconsistent CRC on some isolated tracks with higher error rate).

Quote from: Societal Eclipse,Aug 24 2003, 09:07 AM

I turned C2 correction off sometime the other day. So that's why it ripped so much slower. And it also proves that C2 isn't the culprit for those pops/clicks we hear. So...does that mean it is part of the audio itself?

You're mistaken, turning C2 on/off, doesn't turn mastered CDS200 C2 errors on/off !
Whether you have C2 on or off, the errors are on the disc, and the drive can't read them properly, and clicks may occur. After this, turning C2 on/off in EAC will allow it to detect them, but as we saw, it won't change anything.

Quote from: _Shorty,Aug 24 2003, 09:19 AM

it's possible that it's just in the audio itself.

Yes, it's possible too. The mastering is not perfect. The voice in "Régénération" clicks, the CD is clipped in "Electro Kardiogram". Thus some clicks might have slipped unnoticed through the sound.

Quote from: _Shorty,Aug 24 2003, 09:19 AM

On a related note, I just picked up a new burner last week, a LiteOn 52/32/52, and it seems to be just great for ripping Cactus Data Shield discs.
(...)
This new drive never goes through EAC's rereading process (where the little red dots light up to show it's trying to get a good read) at all,

It just means that C2 detection is not working. Either it's not turned on in EAC's options, either the drive doesn't support it.

Quote from: _Shorty,Aug 24 2003, 09:19 AM

It only took about 18 minutes to read it with the new drive too, which is still slow, but certainly better than 2 hours. I'm pretty happy with the drive,

What is important with CDS200 is to get rid of what I would call "malicious clicks", that occur only on PC drives. See the "Clicks" paragraph in the first post of this thread. They are strong clicks. Their strenght depends on the error correction ability of the drive. They should be got rid of with drives using linear interpolation up to 8 samples (hifi-style error concealment). I found this error concealment on my hifi player (Yamaha CDX860), but on none of my PC drives (see tests at http://perso.numericable.fr/~laguill2/dae/...terpolation.htm ).

Quote from: Societal Eclipse,Aug 24 2003, 08:34 AM

I didn't even notice those until I checked specifically for them.

Interesting. Would your NEC NR7800 A feature hifi-grade error concealment ? Any chance to run the same kind of tests as I did ?

Quote from: Fr4nz,Aug 24 2003, 10:48 AM

Months ago I ripped the Blind Guardian Live CD which was protected with cactus data shield 200 (I don't know the exact version)...and yes, there are some clicks throughout the 2 cds...so it seems that your suppositions are true. These clicks are linked with the copy protection and this is not good coz it means lower quality also when you normally play the disc in a cd player!

Did you actually check with a CD Player ?
The theoretical CDS behaviour is clicks in PC drives and no clicks in hifi players.

Quote from: krazy,Aug 24 2003, 12:48 PM

I managed to get a good copy of 'Strays' using my DVD drive(not sure of the brand), while my CDRW simply gave a lot of clicks! It did take a while though (~15mins).

Same remark. Your DVD drive must have a stronger error correction and/or error concealment than your CDRW drive.

A Cactus Datashield experience

Reply #22 – 2003-08-24 19:23:55

well Pio, I always leave C2 unchecked in EAC so whether the drive is or is not reporting C2 errors correctly isn't an issue here. Any red dot errors are showing up because of mismatches between the two reads during secure mode ripping. Both drives, the one that EAC shows red dots with and the one that does not, rip the CDS200 disc 'perfectly' if you ask me. There are no clicks anywhere in the rip, from either drive.

<edit> and the first time I read a new disc I do a test & copy so that I have a test CRC to use during any subsequent rips. In the case of this disc, CRC matches on all tracks.

A Cactus Datashield experience

Reply #23 – 2003-09-01 11:27:55

Quote

Quote
Have you tried ripping it in secure mode without C2? I would imagine you won't get any clicks in that case, as without C2 enabled it won't be relying on the drive's (unreliable) handling of reporting C2 errors.

EAC can't correct CDS200 errors in any mode. They are completely uncorrectable.

IIRC in some previous versions of EAC there's been an option like "use C2 information for error correction" or similar with some deglitch-like algorithm kicking in on uncorrectable C2 errors reported by the drive. Something similar could be a way to correct (=try to make errors inaudible, not = restore the original information) CDS200 errors. Another way would be ripping with 2 different drives (that interpolate differently), do a substraction and deglitch at the positions with sample values != 0.
(Hint @ spoon - you seem to be motivated to develop something like this ... )

Quote

Quote
On a related note, I just picked up a new burner last week, a LiteOn 52/32/52, and it seems to be just great for ripping Cactus Data Shield discs.
(...)
This new drive never goes through EAC's rereading process (where the little red dots light up to show it's trying to get a good read) at all,

It just means that C2 detection is not working. Either it's not turned on in EAC's options, either the drive doesn't support it.

Maybe we should suggest Andre to recommend using CDS200 detected CDs for determining drives' read features.

A Cactus Datashield experience

Reply #24 – 2003-09-01 18:40:51

Quote

IIRC in some previous versions of EAC there's been an option like "use C2 information for error correction" or similar with some deglitch-like algorithm kicking in on uncorrectable C2 errors reported by the drive.

Yes, and there might have been a slight misunderstanding about this mode.
I assumed that it was deglitching the C2 errors because that's what was discussed on the EAC mailing list before it was released, and because it was advertised as "helping with copy protected CDs". And, on copy protected CDs, C2 errors are meant to be interpolated.
But in a recent discussion with Andre by mail, he got me confused. I was suggesting that in C2 mode, rereading should be done until no C2 is reported, like in Plextools, rather than keeping the most common result ( http://www.digital-inn.de/showthread.php?t...?threadid=20647 ). He answered that the previous "use C2 on error correction" was doing just this, and that he removed it partly because I found it not to work properly.
Since his message was a bit hasty, and I was not sure that he understood me well, I asked a clarification, but right now Andre doesn't work much on EAC, the delay between questions and answers is about one month. So I've got no more infos. But there is certainly a way of testing it without his help.

Quote

Something similar could be a way to correct (=try to make errors inaudible, not = restore the original information) CDS200 errors.

It is simple : interpolate all C2 errors, even when there are several ones in a row. As we just saw, it is even possible that some PC drives already do it.

Quote

Another way would be ripping with 2 different drives (that interpolate differently), do a substraction and deglitch at the positions with sample values != 0.
(Hint @ spoon - you seem to be motivated to develop something like this ... )

That wouldn't work. A severe error, uncorrectable on both, would return the same values on the two drives.
In order to know where the errors are, just use C2extract.exe, from the DAE quality kit : you get the wave file one hand (burst mode), and all the C2 pointers in the other hand. From this, it is trivial to make a program that, from these two files, interpolate all errors. Find the read command with C2 infos in the ASPI specifications, and you can get rid of C2extract.Exe.

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