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Topic: Audio copy - can it actually sound like original (Read 3792 times) previous topic - next topic
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Audio copy - can it actually sound like original

I have recently started experimenting with various rippers and CD-drives making audio CD compilations. The problem I have noticed is that I can get close enough sound but never exact. Listening to the ripped CDs on a good stereo systems - they sound great - until you actually start comparing them to the original. Then you can notice that there are some differences in sound - such as:
- slight shift in reproduced frequencies (for example, a singer's voice becomes a tad lower)
- slight shift in stereo imaging

I was wondering if it is actually technically possible to get a copy to sound exactly like original and what I can do to get as close as possible.

Drive PlexWrite 48/24A
PlexTools v 2.03 with DAE option "5. Recover the best bytes (least errors)" based on posting by SatCP http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/3286.cfm
CD Media: Ritek (type 7)
For burning i also used PlexTools

I have also tried before:
Drive NEC 7900a
EAC
For burning Nero/Feurio

As far as I understand my remaining options are:
- try different CD media like Taiyo Yuden
- perhaps try EAC with C2 correction for Plextor enabled?

Doe this make sense? Will it actually make that much difference? Anyone else has been done this road and has it figured?

Appreciate your input

Audio copy - can it actually sound like original

Reply #1 –
Well, it's pretty simple. To rule out any pc-related issues, just rip your original and your copy in two different folders using EAC, then use "FC /B" to compare contents of the two directories. If your read & write offsets were properly configured, and if your reader & burner support overread/write into leadin/out (Plextor should do), then your two set of .wav should be identical.

If they are identical: then what good is a digital audio cd player, if it sounds differently when fed two identical data streams... Maybe it just can't read (this brand of) cd-r's properly, thus generating uncorrectable errors ?

Maybe you can try to burn a cd-rw instead of a cd-r ?

If this doesn't solve your problem, then it's either your player or your testing (ie: listening) methodology that's at fault.

Cheers

Audio copy - can it actually sound like original

Reply #2 –
Thanks - but before I try to compare original and copy I want to make sure that I am making copies the best possible way. As far as I can see - there are 2 options - PlexTools or EAC (from this thread)

So - is there a merit in actually ripping off the same song with:

1. Plextor + EAC Secure Mode with C2 ("Copy Selected tracks" action)
  read offset correction: 98
  write offset: -30
2. Plextor + Plextools 2.03 (Digital Audio Extraction with the most secure option)

then burning them both on the same CD with PlexTools and then:

Quote
"just rip your original and your copy in two different folders using EAC, then use "FC /B" to compare contents of the two directories"...
(BTW - I assume FC stands for FileCompare and not some option in EAC?)

Or will I be better off ripping entire CD?

ALSO - any suggestions (apart from trying different media) if .wavs are not identical?

Audio copy - can it actually sound like original

Reply #3 –
@zzag,
Assuming you're not trolling us here, there have been quite a lot of threads regarding CDDA quality when burned on CDR media.
A good starting point could be this one and following the links given there.

Keywords: BLER, jitter

Errors or differences in the ripping process can be detected very easily with a bytewise filecompare.
Even if the offsets are slightly different you can try the wav compare feature in EAC.

Audio copy - can it actually sound like original

Reply #4 –
@zzag

Yes, by FC /B I meant the command-line FC.EXE utility.

I suggest you simplify the process:

1 - keep your burned copy
2 - choose the track where you think you heard the most differences
3 - rip it with EAC, from both the original and the copy (don't care about offsets)
4 - Use EAC's wave compare to ensure they're identical.

If you got an error in step 3, then choose another cd-r brand.
If you got a different .wav (except for the possible offset) in step 4, then your EAC setup and/or hardware is at fault.

If success, then please compare your original and copy with blind testing (eg: WinABX). This is because you must rule out all placebo effects.

If you get statistically significant results (ie: < 5% guessing probability or so) then you're onto something, and we'd be glad to know it.

Unfortunately odds are, the differences will vanish to you when going blind.

Cheers

Audio copy - can it actually sound like original

Reply #5 –
Hi.

I am also trying to establish a methodology for correct ripping.

My current procedure is:
  • Find out at which speed-setting your drive reports c2 errors most accurately
    a) C2 errors are unrecoverable and cannot be corrected digitally.
    "B") The drive only pretends to correct it by replacing the error with an educated guess.
    ---
    Q.E.D.: When your drive reports a C2 error, you cannot rip the CD (well, track) correctly.

    [ Tool: daequality from the EAC website ]

  • Rip all your cds at this constant speed only
    By ripping at a speed for which your drive reports close to 100% accurate C2-errors, you can safely assume that no errors reported means no errors occured.

    [ Tools: EAC, Plextools (for Plextor drives, which have very good C2-reporting) ]

  • Compare ripped wavs
    By comparing the rips by EAC and Plextools, you may assume that rips in agreement do not:
    a) Have errors in extracting the datastream
    "B") Have timing errors in assembling the datastream to the wave-stream
    ---
    Q.E.D.: You have a perfect rip (I think)

Currently my statistics from using this approach with a Plextor W1210A drive with firmware 1.10 at speed 8CLV, is:
  • 23% of cds have errors
  • 17% wavs are in disagreement between EAC and plextools (using the EAC's "compare wav"-feature, and
  • 60% are ok.

EDIT: Stupid, stupid bbcode!

Oh, and also:

I speculate that there is a HUGE difference between the timing capabilities of a hardware-dedicated player (regular audio-cd) and the possible latency that any general purpose process-scheduling platform can give you.
So, in short the answer to your original question is: No.
In addition, I would speculate that the accuracy with which a cd-writer can smack down the data-stream would distort the timing signals "meshed in" with the cd no matter how good the writer is. CDs are stamped, after all.

Audio copy - can it actually sound like original

Reply #6 –
Thanks everyone for your input. Having read suggested CDR-Info article on standards and technologies I now find that it is actually quite surprising that CDR copies sound so close to the original...

I guess all I can do is to aim to provide most favorable conditions for DAE. As suggested by DrDoogie - I will try to figure out the optimum speed for my Plextor (I have a suspicion it will be 4x). I may also experiment with turning VariRec on (this may improve compatibility with my current... hi-fi)

I will setup EAC for my Plextor drive and hope to get some NumLOCK's tests done at some time next week. If I find anything interesting I will report back.

BTW: is there additional info (apart from the manual) on ripping and recording with PlexTools? "Extract to a single" file does not create CUE sheet.../Are "pauses" actually gaps and how they are appended/etc... I probably can figure this out by experimenting but a shortcut won't go a miss...

Finally - anything I need to watch out for when recording?

cheers

Audio copy - can it actually sound like original

Reply #7 –
Quote
Finally - anything I need to watch out for when recording?

Yes: PLACEBO!

You seem to be doing it the right way, with good hardware and all. There should be no differences.

I have one word for you: ABX (is that even a word?)
I'm the one in the picture, sitting on a giant cabbage in Mexico, circa 1978.
Reseñas de Rock en Español: www.estadogeneral.com