I run a small LP master facility. We master LPs from all sources.

First, the issue of distortion! LPs may contain significant distortion but they are not usually the source.

For example, LPs are often accused of 2-3% distortion at full output, but that's usually the recording tape (its possible to go direct to disk after all, that's when you find this sort of thing out).

...IOW most of the 'distortion of LP' lies outside of the LP itself.

(Regarding compression, most digital tracks are compressed more than LPs for the simple reason that there is no expectation that LPs will be played in a car.

I've found that if you spend time with the track and do some test cuts, there has been no need for additional processing....
 such as compression or bass limiters (which usually are passive devices in the signal FWIW).

... For this reason we request from the producer the **unmastered** digital files free of such DSP so we can turn out a better product.) 

The issue is usually how much time the engineer is spending with the recording and in particular to do this you often wind up making a number of test cuts to get things right (add to that $400/hour for typical mastering and you see what the problem there is- which is why compression and other forms of processing can be common).

There is the issue of noise.... what most people don't know that for all intents and purposes, a properly cut lacquer will easily rival the noise floor of a CD.

Bandwidth seems to be another issue that I don't see being addressed! The typical LP has bandwidth to about 40KHz; an octave above just about everything else.

(BTW if you want to test speed stability in a turntable, get a Sutherland Timeline. This is a laser device that projects dots on the wall; if the speed is off the dot will become a small line and may also drift across the wall.

In round numbers the implication is less phase shift owing to the frequency poles being spaced apart a bit; phase shift while inaudible with single tones is easily heard as affecting depth and width in the soundstage or 3D aspect of a recording (which might only be heard when minimalist microphone techniques are employed).

... The cutter head of any mastering system take a few watts to drive. But the cutter amps as a rule of thumb make about 10X whatever the power the cutter needs. Example: our cutter (Westerex 3D) takes about 7-8 watts maximum. The amps make about 125 watts at full power. The amps, as you can imagine, don't make that much distortion even at full power. The reason this is so of course is so that the amps cannot be clipped. Period. ...

... (BTW if you want to test speed stability in a turntable, get a Sutherland Timeline. ...

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(Regarding compression, most digital tracks are compressed more than LPs for the simple reason that there is no expectation that LPs will be played in a car.

I don't believe that...  I believe music is "over-compressed" because that's what sells!    And, I don't believe people choose to buy (or not to buy) based on how it sounds in the car.    And apparently, a LOT of modern vinyl is made from the same master as the CD/MP3.   Are you saying that's not true?

I run a small LP master facility. We master LPs from all sources.

Prior to setting up our lathe and cutter head, I labored under many of the same false impressions and assumptions that I see on this thread. BTW, I don't have a bone to pick; I don't care who thinks what is superior or the like, but I do see some areas where the record (pardon the expression...) should be set straight instead of some sort of death spiral (sorry, couldn't resist...).

First, the issue of distortion! LPs may contain significant distortion but they are not usually the source. Usually its the source from which the LP was made or the distortion occurs in playback (more on the latter later). For example, LPs are often accused of 2-3% distortion at full output, but that's usually the recording tape (its possible to go direct to disk after all, that's when you find this sort of thing out).

Here's why: The cutter head of any mastering system take a few watts to drive. But the cutter amps as a rule of thumb make about 10X whatever the power the cutter needs. Example: our cutter (Westerex 3D) takes about 7-8 watts maximum. The amps make about 125 watts at full power. The amps, as you can imagine, don't make that much distortion even at full power. The reason this is so of course is so that the amps cannot be clipped. Period.

Next, the cutter head is equipped with feedback windings, which are used not only to reduce distortion but also to prevent crosstalk. The feedback modules in our cutter system have 30db of gain, which is applied to the input of the cutter amps. IOW by itself the actual distortion is similar to what you might see in a good quality solid state amplifier, if such are being used as cutter amps.

Now the cutter can cut undistorted cuts that no tone arm/cartridge combination could hope to track long before its voice coils are fried. This places the limitation of dynamic range in playback, not record (which is also where much of the distortion issues lie, usually due to poor setup or design in the pickup).

IOW most of the 'distortion of LP' lies outside of the LP itself.

So far despite encountering out of phase bass tracks on many occasions, I've found that if you spend time with the track and do some test cuts, there has been no need for additional processing such as compression or bass limiters (which usually are passive devices in the signal FWIW). The issue is usually how much time the engineer is spending with the recording and in particular to do this you often wind up making a number of test cuts to get things right (add to that $400/hour for typical mastering and you see what the problem there is- which is why compression and other forms of processing can be common). Variables may include changing the overall level (1 db might not sound like much but when you consider that +/-3 db changes the excursion by double or half, you can see that a decibel might be very helpful yet inaudible in the finished product) or changing the groove depth.

(Regarding compression, most digital tracks are compressed more than LPs for the simple reason that there is no expectation that LPs will be played in a car. Any discussion of dynamic range has to include this foible of the recording industry in general. For this reason we request from the producer the **unmastered** digital files free of such DSP so we can turn out a better product.)

There is the issue of noise.... what most people don't know that for all intents and purposes, a properly cut lacquer will easily rival the noise floor of a CD. Whatever you play it back on, the electronics used are the noise floor, not the lacquer. This is true even if you start with a lacquer that has obvious scratches on it! The surface noise comes in during the pressing process (and hiss is in nearly every raw unmastered recording). At least one pressing house (QRP) has addressed surface noise as they found that vibration in their pressing machines was a main contributor; by damping their pressing machines most of the noise is eliminated. Projects we have done through their operation confirm this; those pressings seem to be as silent as the lacquers.

Bandwidth seems to be another issue that I don't see being addressed! The typical LP has bandwidth to about 40KHz; an octave above just about everything else. This has apparently been true since the advent of the stereo LP. Since at least the early 1970s this has also been true on the playback side (we can cut a 40KHz tone on our 1959 Westerex cutter head and play it back on a Technics SL1200 driving a Harmon Kardon 730 receiver easily enough...). In round numbers the implication is less phase shift owing to the frequency poles being spaced apart a bit; phase shift while inaudible with single tones is easily heard as affecting depth and width in the soundstage or 3D aspect of a recording (which might only be heard when minimalist microphone techniques are employed).

IOW the bandwidth of an LP is described by its source and not the media. In a similar way, so is the potential noise floor as well as distortion. What I am seeing on this thread is that many posters are simply uninformed about the nature of the media and conflate it with their playback-only experience; because *their* LP has certain problems played back in *their* system, that it must be that way for everyone. That of course is a logical fallacy and by definition untrue.

Again, I'm just presenting these facts so that people can make more informed posts as this thread (inevitably) grows.

(BTW if you want to test speed stability in a turntable, get a Sutherland Timeline. This is a laser device that projects dots on the wall; if the speed is off the dot will become a small line and may also drift across the wall. FWIW the Technics SP10 and the new SL-1200 GAE (which looks for all the world like the older SL1200s but is an entirely new design in every way except appearance) can keep that dot on the same place all afternoon while being played constantly. So stylus drag need not be an issue but is an issue often conflated with the media itself. )

Bandwidth seems to be another issue that I don't see being addressed! The typical LP has bandwidth to about 40KHz; an octave above just about everything else.

Quote from: Funkstar De Luxe on 2017-07-04 19:06:33

I'd say it was easier to press a plastic disc than to build and maintain a network capable of digital distribution. Not only that, but if we consider physical 'digital' media, it's very slightly more difficult to produce than vinyl.

Both wrong and a straw man argument.

Creating a digital distribution network is very easy if you are even mildly technically competent. Set up a file server.

 Can't do it? Find a 6 year old to help you! ;-)


But, you don't need to set up a digital distribution network. All you need to do is burn a piece of digital optical media or copy files to a portable digital device like a DS chip, a flash drive, or a portable hard drive.

 Can't do it? Find a 4 year old to help you! ;-)

Quote

Skimming through the links, I don't see anything that backs up your claim.  A lot of measurements, not many of them relating back to what we actually can hear.  Even the links concedes "Yet the stereo illusion is still subjectively maintained. One reason is that the human head manages only 20dB or so separation between the ears and is used to working with this amount, so around 25dB-30dB of separation is adequate in practice for a good sense of stereo. " and the other "my Technics SL-1200M3D deviates -9.5/+8.8Hz which when low-passed still stays around -0.8/+0.5Hz (-0.02/+0.02%) over a minute; this is certainly quite good"

I don't know how much harmonic distortion is discernible, and I don't have all evening to nit pic through each of these. 

...And there is no such thing as google and the web to educate yourself with. GMAB! 

Ever hear of self-induced ignorance?

Tell me that you want to know! I don't believe it.

I have read endless false technological claims about digital from analog bigots. Being charitable, I'll say that they are based on ignorance. In this day and age, it has to be self-induced.

Quote

Attached is a clip of a recording I made this evening. It's from a 33rpm LP, it's the runout track (a min or two from the end of the record), has lit's of transients, high frequencies, a quite section (where the reverb is decaying). I don't hear anything wrong with it. This isn't an ABX, it's me listening to something and finding it transparent in the sense that I could not tell what the medium was. Just thought it would be interesting for people to hear.

Again, yes digital recordings are better, but usually, vinyl is more than enough for me to consider it 'good quality'.

For one thing, the moral equivalent of a run out groove on a digital recording is either:

(1) A run out groove doesn't exist on digital media because. unlike analog, it doesn't have to exist.

(2) A run out groove on digital media is just the background noise from the production chain which is over 90 dB down and is therefore very, very, hard to hear at all.

(3) A run out groove on digital media is digital black, which is as quiet as  your playback gear can make it. YMMV.

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-05 12:26:27

Quote from: Funkstar De Luxe on 2017-07-04 19:06:33

I'd say it was easier to press a plastic disc than to build and maintain a network capable of digital distribution. Not only that, but if we consider physical 'digital' media, it's very slightly more difficult to produce than vinyl.

Both wrong and a straw man argument.

Creating a digital distribution network is very easy if you are even mildly technically competent. Set up a file server.

 Can't do it? Find a 6 year old to help you! ;-)


But, you don't need to set up a digital distribution network. All you need to do is burn a piece of digital optical media or copy files to a portable digital device like a DS chip, a flash drive, or a portable hard drive.

 Can't do it? Find a 4 year old to help you! ;-)

Quote

Skimming through the links, I don't see anything that backs up your claim.  A lot of measurements, not many of them relating back to what we actually can hear.  Even the links concedes "Yet the stereo illusion is still subjectively maintained. One reason is that the human head manages only 20dB or so separation between the ears and is used to working with this amount, so around 25dB-30dB of separation is adequate in practice for a good sense of stereo. " and the other "my Technics SL-1200M3D deviates -9.5/+8.8Hz which when low-passed still stays around -0.8/+0.5Hz (-0.02/+0.02%) over a minute; this is certainly quite good"

I don't know how much harmonic distortion is discernible, and I don't have all evening to nit pic through each of these. 

...And there is no such thing as google and the web to educate yourself with. GMAB! 

Ever hear of self-induced ignorance?

Tell me that you want to know! I don't believe it.

I have read endless false technological claims about digital from analog bigots. Being charitable, I'll say that they are based on ignorance. In this day and age, it has to be self-induced.

Quote

Attached is a clip of a recording I made this evening. It's from a 33rpm LP, it's the runout track (a min or two from the end of the record), has lit's of transients, high frequencies, a quite section (where the reverb is decaying). I don't hear anything wrong with it. This isn't an ABX, it's me listening to something and finding it transparent in the sense that I could not tell what the medium was. Just thought it would be interesting for people to hear.

Again, yes digital recordings are better, but usually, vinyl is more than enough for me to consider it 'good quality'.

For one thing, the moral equivalent of a run out groove on a digital recording is either:

(1) A run out groove doesn't exist on digital media because. unlike analog, it doesn't have to exist.

(2) A run out groove on digital media is just the background noise from the production chain which is over 90 dB down and is therefore very, very, hard to hear at all.

(3) A run out groove on digital media is digital black, which is as quiet as  your playback gear can make it. YMMV.

I'm sorry Arnold, but I genuinely cannot fully understand your replies.

I don't know if English is not your first language (it's not mine so maybe that's where the issue lies),

but I see nothing addressed.  Comparing the burning of a CD-R to mass producing CDs from a glass master is wilfully ignorant in my opinion.

I have no idea what you mean by "moral equivalent of a run out groove"... I don't even know what you're trying to rebut. The music sample I posted was only to disprove your assertion that run out groove distortion was a universal problem.  It is not.

Also, to answer the harmonic distortion question, all you had to do was post a number and a reference. I don't think the personal attack is necessary.

There are many different ways to measure distortion and I could not find reliable sources against which I could compare digital vs. vinyl.

I have a feeling that the output device is much higher distortion than either (speakers / headphones).

Quote

Bandwidth seems to be another issue that I don't see being addressed! The typical LP has bandwidth to about 40KHz; an octave above just about everything else.

And if we had ears that could detect 40kHz this would mean something.

Quote from: Funkstar De Luxe on 2017-07-06 10:50:56

I'm sorry Arnold, but I genuinely cannot fully understand your replies.

I can believe that.

Quote

I don't know if English is not your first language (it's not mine so maybe that's where the issue lies),

Born and raised in Detroit, Michigan. Yes, English is my native language. For at least 68 years. At one point  a number of years ago google reported that I had posted something like a quarter of a million posts. Most of them seem to be understood by an assortment of English and Non-English speakers. The English syntax and spelling  checker I currently use reports that I write more than 98% of its users and am way below average in terms of  needing its services. Go figure!

Quote

but I see nothing addressed.  Comparing the burning of a CD-R to mass producing CDs from a glass master is wilfully ignorant in my opinion.

I'm getting it. You are blissfully unaware that burned CDs are widely used for manufacturing CDs that are sold and otherwise distributed. Besides, in your blissful state, you never said what level of distribution you are talking about. Of course in a vinyl-centric mind, the idea that a disc would be produced and distributed by any means but pressing is unimaginable.

Quote

I have no idea what you mean by "moral equivalent of a run out groove"... I don't even know what you're trying to rebut. The music sample I posted was only to disprove your assertion that run out groove distortion was a universal problem.  It is not.

The phrase  "Run Out Groove" is a widely accepted and used term of art for recordings. Unfortunately, your sample suggests that you don't know what it means. I overestimated your awareness of the medium that you seem to prefer. My apologies. Please find out what the terms you use mean in English: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/run-out%20groove

Quote

Also, to answer the harmonic distortion question, all you had to do was post a number and a reference. I don't think the personal attack is necessary.

You have to admit that by personally attacking someone for the reprehensible crime of using terms of art in accordance with their long-accepted and widely-agreed upon meanings and then suggesting that they are incompetent writers in their native language is not exactly really good manners, right?

Quote

There are many different ways to measure distortion and I could not find reliable sources against which I could compare digital vs. vinyl.

That is due to your apparent ignorance of the subject. The reason why you can't find many resources about distortion in digital systems is because a proper digital system has none. Zero. Zip. Nada. If you find distortion in the digital domain it was either put there intentionally (e.g. music synthesis) or came there from the analog domain.

Quote

I have a feeling that the output device is much higher distortion than either (speakers / headphones).

That's an interesting idea but wrong. LP's have enough distortion that they can out-produce good speakers when it comes to making distortion.

Normally digital is incapable of doing such things without help from the analog domain.

So a discussion of distortion in recording and playback in  the digital domain and LPs is trivial and short.  It is whatever the LP has which is lots, versus nothing.

You and I clearly cannot communicate effectively together. I know what a run out groove is, thanks for the link. "Moral equivalent of a run out groove", on the other hand... I also don't understand "term of art for recordings", but I'm sure that's just me.

I think you're getting confused.  There is no music "in the digital domain".

Be definition this must be converted to analogue before it's "music".

I think you're getting confused.  There is no music "in the digital domain".

First, the issue of distortion! LPs may contain significant distortion but they are not usually the source. Usually its the source from which the LP was made or the distortion occurs in playback (more on the latter later). For example, LPs are often accused of 2-3% distortion at full output, but that's usually the recording tape (its possible to go direct to disk after all, that's when you find this sort of thing out).
...
Bandwidth seems to be another issue that I don't see being addressed! The typical LP has bandwidth to about 40KHz; an octave above just about everything else. This has apparently been true since the advent of the stereo LP. Since at least the early 1970s this has also been true on the playback side (we can cut a 40KHz tone on our 1959 Westerex cutter head and play it back on a Technics SL1200 driving a Harmon Kardon 730 receiver easily enough...). In round numbers the implication is less phase shift owing to the frequency poles being spaced apart a bit; phase shift while inaudible with single tones is easily heard as affecting depth and width in the soundstage or 3D aspect of a recording (which might only be heard when minimalist microphone techniques are employed).

Quote from: Atmasphere on 2017-07-05 20:18:31

I run a small LP master facility. We master LPs from all sources. [snip]

Quote

The above is false or misleading or both. For example, measuring the speed of a turntable for playback is painfully easy and takes no special equipment at all. You just do a needle drop of a test record with a known frequency test tone. You measure its frequency in the digital domain, and it is what it is. This is different from how one properly sets up a cutting lathe but come to think of it, many of the cutting lathes I've seen can be used to play records, even having a built in tone arm with cartridge,

No false of misleading statements were made; the above claim to that effect is in itself false.

Clearly you've no experience with the Timeline.

The Sutherland Timeline is much better than the suggestion here (although that works too, but not nearly as well). If you want to see the effects of stylus drag (which is highly variable from machine to machine) the suggested technique won't pick it up and the Timeline will.

Quote

that is moot in the real world due to that slight technicality of having to play it with a real-world stylus.

This statement is false; as stated earlier we see 40KHz bandwidth with our lowly Technics SL1200 and an entry level Grado cartridge played through an 1970s receiver. We use such gear specifically to see how our cuts will play out on common equipment. Clearly you don't need the bandwidth for its own sake; it helps to reduce phase shift in the audio passband (which is audible in the soundstage because the ear uses phase for sound location).

Quote

Similar considerations apply to the cleanliness of freshly-cut lacquers. Unfortunately they have to be played to be meaningful. However vibration in the cutting lathe can be added to the cut groove in the lacquer.  So all this cutting-side theoretical goodness suffers because in the real world, we play them.

Clearly you have not spent any time in this arena; in a nutshell you don't seem to know what you're talking about.
A lathe makes noise, but if set up correctly and in good condition it can do -95db (weighted) no worries. My suggestion is to work with a lathe before making such bold/false statements!

Quote from: StephenPG on 2017-07-06 08:50:40

Quote

Bandwidth seems to be another issue that I don't see being addressed! The typical LP has bandwidth to about 40KHz; an octave above just about everything else.

And if we had ears that could detect 40kHz this would mean something.

See above. The rule of thumb being that phase shift can be measured to about 1/10th the cutoff frequency; from this we can see that no current audio recording system has wide enough bandwidth- yet. This is basic filter theory and is why amps and preamps have had 100KHz bandwidth going back to the 1950s.

Quote

It is also untrue. The relevant item is power bandwidth. That is, the ability to reproduce a signal with useful amplitude an  low distortion. For the LP it is a little more than 12-15 KHz for a SOTA LP player.

This statement is false and suggests a lack of understanding (although the bit about bandwidth was probably true in the early 1950s).  I get what the power bandwidth thing is all about but that really doesn't apply here. Seeing the technology actually do it can be very helpful to solve this sort of ignorance. The reason CD-4 was possible in the 1970s was because the bandwidth already existed to a large degree; with minor modifications to the process CD-4 was a reality.

You don't need state of the art to get 40KHz bandwidth- nearly any modern era LP pickup can do that with ease. They can probably go higher but most cutter electronics are bandwidth limited (ours are limited to 42KHz) to prevent stability issues so the recordings needed for such proof can't be made without special consideration. I've not seen the need for that so far.

Quote

Sure you can record signals much higher on a LP, and with some digging, you can even recover a recognizable but mangled signal up as high as 40 KHz, at least for a dozen or two playings until your SOTA stylus destroys them. Pinch Effect is a B!%c#.

Pinch Effect- That's actually funny!  This statement is blatantly false and clearly made without measurements or hands-on experience. That's the sort of thing in which subjectivists engage! Some here are probably to young to recall, but RCA marketed color video recordings on vinyl, played back with a stylus. Again my recommendation is to work with a lathe rather than engaging in myth and rumor. As I pointed out in my remarks earlier, I had many of these same false impressions until working with the real thing set me straight. 

Quote from: Atmasphere on 2017-07-05 20:18:31

First, the issue of distortion! LPs may contain significant distortion but they are not usually the source. Usually its the source from which the LP was made or the distortion occurs in playback (more on the latter later). For example, LPs are often accused of 2-3% distortion at full output, but that's usually the recording tape (its possible to go direct to disk after all, that's when you find this sort of thing out).
...
Bandwidth seems to be another issue that I don't see being addressed! The typical LP has bandwidth to about 40KHz; an octave above just about everything else. This has apparently been true since the advent of the stereo LP. Since at least the early 1970s this has also been true on the playback side (we can cut a 40KHz tone on our 1959 Westerex cutter head and play it back on a Technics SL1200 driving a Harmon Kardon 730 receiver easily enough...). In round numbers the implication is less phase shift owing to the frequency poles being spaced apart a bit; phase shift while inaudible with single tones is easily heard as affecting depth and width in the soundstage or 3D aspect of a recording (which might only be heard when minimalist microphone techniques are employed).

Unfortunately, based on pretty much all the measurements and tests I have seen, pickup cartridges have 1-2% distortion and their response drops very rapidly after 20 kHz.

Quote

(Regarding compression, most digital tracks are compressed more than LPs for the simple reason that there is no expectation that LPs will be played in a car.

I don't believe that...  I believe music is "over-compressed" because that's what sells!    And, I don't believe people choose to buy (or not to buy) based on how it sounds in the car.    And apparently, a LOT of modern vinyl is made from the same master as the CD/MP3.   Are you saying that's not true?

There's a reason why I don't post on for what are for me foreign languge forums. Something about actually doing something worthwhile, and not making a fool out of  myself.

I'll be generous and chalk up "The digital domain" as yet one more common English phase that you are clueless about.

Wrong. Music can be expressed in any of a large number of mediums and formats and in English, we call them all music.

You're right, Funkstar. You are so incompetent at reading and writing English that there is no possibility of a reasonable conversation with you. I suspect the problem is more your state of mind or lack thereof, and not your native language.

Quote from: DVDdoug on 2017-07-05 23:24:29

Quote

(Regarding compression, most digital tracks are compressed more than LPs for the simple reason that there is no expectation that LPs will be played in a car.

I don't believe that...  I believe music is "over-compressed" because that's what sells!    And, I don't believe people choose to buy (or not to buy) based on how it sounds in the car.    And apparently, a LOT of modern vinyl is made from the same master as the CD/MP3.   Are you saying that's not true?

He'll say whatever he wants.  He runs a small LP master facility.  It makes him omniscient about such things.

See above. The rule of thumb being that phase shift can be measured to about 1/10th the cutoff frequency; from this we can see that no current audio recording system has wide enough bandwidth- yet. This is basic filter theory and is why amps and preamps have had 100KHz bandwidth going back to the 1950s.

Quote from: Atmasphere on 2017-07-06 18:18:32

See above. The rule of thumb being that phase shift can be measured to about 1/10th the cutoff frequency; from this we can see that no current audio recording system has wide enough bandwidth- yet. This is basic filter theory and is why amps and preamps have had 100KHz bandwidth going back to the 1950s.

16/44 digital audio (~22kHz cutoff) has no trouble reproducing the phase of signals near the cutoff frequency, so that rule of thumb sounds wrong to me. Check out https://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml around the 20:55 minute mark for a demonstration.

So, I don't believe that "no current audio recording system has wide enough bandwidth- yet".

Over the recent holiday shopping season, U.S. artists and labels saw a 140% increase in tape sales over the previous year, according to a new music industry report from BuzzAngle. Over the course of 2016, Bandcamp saw its own 46% increase in cassette sales, according to a spokesperson for the music service. Also last year, the National Audio Company–the largest cassette tape manufacturer in the U.S.–saw a 20% increase in its commercial tape duplication business (this doesn’t include blank tapes or audiobooks), according to a company spokesperson. This continues an upward-sloping trend for the Missouri-based company, which did more business in 2014 than at any other previous point since its factory opened in 1969.

Between TOS#8, TOS#2, and TOS#5 pretty much this entire thread deserves to be binned.

Claiming that "received wisdom" from the analog mastering practices of the 1960s and audiophile terms of art trump direct factual demonstration seems to me to be the very kind of nonsense this site and its TOS were designed to avoid.