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Topic: Best price/value DAC's (Read 37190 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Best price/value DAC's

Reply #75 –
Quote from: Webdrifter on
This I can understand. Although I am of the opinion that there is a clear difference in stating that "I hear a difference" and stating that "there is a difference".
Sure, but it's not always so easy to draw a clear distinction and in other places you can see widespread self-delusion because these people conclude that "I hear a difference" means "there must be a difference in sound" and this is further reinforced by the experiences of like-minded people. In these places confirmation bias and groupthink are not a negative thing, they are desirable or even demanded.

Here at HA we try to nip this problem in the bud.


Quote
From the first statement I would never ever ask prove.
Sure, if you just talk about some experience then it would be unfair to ask for proof, but it could still be challenged e.g. if there is reason to believe you're making stuff up. (I'm not saying that's the case here.)

For example, while tuning some EQ settings I was hearing differences but later I found out that the EQ was actually bypassed.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool," as Feynman said.


It also depends on how you say it. "I can hear differences between DAC A and B" will be interpreted as a claim that you can discern A and B by their sound .. and either you can or it's persistent self-delusion. A blind test can provide evidence either way.

I didn't follow the discussion but maybe the problem is lack of clear language. Also, most newcomers do not make such distinctions and as such the assumption will be made that the person is making claims about audible differences ... which is a very reasonable assumption.

"I hear it when I see it."

Re: Best price/value DAC's

Reply #76 –
Quote from: Webdrifter on
Seldom have I had to put so much energy on a forum as a response to this kind of aggressiveness. Doesn't give me a very good feeling nor about this forum.
No doubt this guy worked his way into deserving all the animus that was laid on him, but I wonder if his original question couldn't have been handled differently.  Totally understandable given all the bullshit/hype surrounding this topic that a novice would think a "good" DAC requires the investment of hundreds/thousands of dollars/euros.  For us to come back with the response that "this $20 DAC is as good as it gets" naturally strains credulity for these beginners.  Of course then, since we've questioned his manhood, it quickly devolves into TOS#8 violations and name-calling.

I'm honestly not sure how we as a community can better deal with this situation.  The true "answer" obviously is that questions of sound quality and "value" are totally within the eyes and ears of the individual beholder and maybe that's how it should be left and the topic closed.  That is unless someone among us can offer measurements that show the component under question truly does not perform up to established norms.

@Webdrifter, I'm sorry your experience at Hydrogenaudio did not go as well as you would have liked.  You brought most of it on yourself by thinking you know better than the experienced people whose opinion you sought out in the first place.  Increasingly, it seems that new people coming to this forum are those who share the same misinformed "facts" as yourself for whom HA is a disappointment as it is not a place where egos are stroked.

Re: Best price/value DAC's

Reply #77 –
Quote from: Apesbrain on
For us to come back with the response that "this $20 DAC is as good as it gets" naturally strains credulity for these beginners. 

I think it's always going to be a challenge to seem more welcoming to someone who arrives here steeped in subjective audiophile lore. How do you reconcile Astrology and Astronomy?

Over the decades, subjective audiophiledom has developed it's own view of How Things Work. Many of the columns written from this point of view are entertaining, thought-provoking and well-crafted overall. Pity that the bulk of them are worthless save as entertainment.

To really embrace scientific thinking in sound reproduction is to realize that one's Ongoing Voyage of Sonic Discovery may in fact be akin to a dog chasing it's own tail. Hardware-wise, there's little to strive for, and much of it can be had readily from the likes of Best Buy or Sweetwater Sound. So much for hanging out at the audio "salon"! And yet, it's the very same scientific thinking which can quickly lead a person to Accurate sound which transcends silliness such as "front-to-back depth" or "liquidity".


Re: Best price/value DAC's

Reply #78 –
Quote from: 4season on
I think it's always going to be a challenge to seem more welcoming to someone who arrives here steeped in subjective audiophile lore.
...and a self-professed scientist, no less.

Re: Best price/value DAC's

Reply #79 –
Quote from: 4season on
I think it's always going to be a challenge to seem more welcoming to someone who arrives here steeped in subjective audiophile lore.

To say the least.

I've reviewed this thread several times to try to better understand where things went wrong.  I conclude that the two different audiophile cultures represented were so far apart that they could barely talk to each other because the meaning of the words and phrases that were being used were so different.

Our guest arrived here prepared to execute a execute a procedure for choosing DACs that would have worked out far more as  he expected at dozens of other audio conference sites. Key to this procedure is the  false idea that in general audio gear, particularly DACs generally sound different, and are (a) (the)  strong determining factor in an audio system's sound quality.

His perception that the regulars here were exceptionally aggressive was no doubt based on the fact that the ideas that they presented to him were so much different from what he was familiar with.






Re: Best price/value DAC's

Reply #80 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
... ... ...I've reviewed this thread several times to try to better understand where things went wrong.

The conversation went...

"Sorry, you've got the wrong number."

"No I haven't." ...Repeated every time he called back.

Nobody can be blamed for his dialling the same number over and over. It's nice to be human, warm, friendly. Maybe there are nicer ways of saying This is not the place for you. I tried to say that explicitly, and I don't think my post was even answered.

In India, people say, "What to do?"


The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Re: Best price/value DAC's

Reply #81 –
Quote from: 4season on
I think it's always going to be a challenge to seem more welcoming to someone who arrives here steeped in subjective audiophile lore. How do you reconcile Astrology and Astronomy?
IMO, OP got 'the right kind' of reply in post #10 where he was asked for what purpose he needs a DAC.
Quote from: saratoga on
What exactly are you hoping get?

That said, maybe what is worth debating could lie more on side of general influence, than discussing each case individually. Maybe answer could be found in better delivery of what is Hydrogenadio's purpose.

It will always remain a challenge to recognise how informed new members are, so maybe remembering to ask what is actual purpose of equipment or software is needed could help. Maybe remembering to inform that, like in this case, that chips designed to perform certain function does just that, unit itself can have number of features and decision which unit to get should be made based on features user needs from that unit.

To get back to influence, think of professor who educates people. Not every conversation needs to be a lecture and there is certain responsibility on both professors part and pupils side. Educators that are approachable and can set and use tone of conversation on their side typically get their point across better than type whom every conversation turns to lecture (which can turn to berating). Especially in online communications latter can be felt hostile, even if that was not intended. However, if needed it's important also explain aspects of community like TOS #8 and _why_ there is TOS #8 (to separate astronomy from astrology).

What is responsibility of pupil is to make their own decisions. I had very good experience with people who were going to be DJ's in explaining different kind of benefits of various equipment. Of course in IRL environment there is huge benefit in possibility to let people test different kind of equipment and make their own observations. In the end they learned but were open about their thoughts regarding looks of gear. Based on information they had they went for best compromise with quality, price and how they, (particularly headphones) should look. As decisions were informed, I had no problem with those, I'm simply not the one who need to sell myself to events so there is a line I'm not willing to cross as educator.

So IMO principles of Hydrogenadio are as sound as they always were but there might be something gained if there could be a way communicating them in different manner. Perhaps new approaches might be found not from different forum cultures but education.
Even individuals have questions, problems needing an answer, there are lot of people who read these forums and remain lurkers. They are however still learning something and potentially spreading influence.

It might be also good to keep in mind, that there are many sorts of people. DJ's I wrote in my example worked and were willing to work for their knowledge. That is not the case with every person out there.

Edit: Disclaimer, I'm not professor of any kind. I have some experience as educator but it's something I have done on the side when there have been demand.

Re: Best price/value DAC's

Reply #82 –
Quote from: JamesHunt on
Maybe answer could be found in better delivery of what is Hydrogenadio's purpose.
It's purpose is for those who possess the intellectual capacity to comprehend the TOS to have many discussions within that scope....and those who can't (and/or trolls) to have these recursive threads.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: Best price/value DAC's

Reply #83 –
Quote from: JamesHunt on
IMO, OP got 'the right kind' of reply in post #10 where he was asked for what purpose he needs a DAC.
He answered this in post #13, where he shows that his thinking is so confused that it is difficult to imagine where to start to help him. He starts a thread asking for advice for buying a DAC, and then proceeds to outline a scenario where the DAC is the least of the problems, and the DAC models he is looking at don't help with it at all.

If he were a computer you would be compelled to push his reset button and reboot, hoping to get him back in a sane state.

Some answers can be seen as an attempt to achieve something like this, but admittedly with a low chance of succeeding.

Re: Best price/value DAC's

Reply #86 –
I take it that means €800 Gus fucktard* audio jewelry doesn't fit your budget.

(*) apologies for the cable-induced jitter.

Re: Best price/value DAC's

Reply #87 –
Quote from: pelmazo on
Quote from: JamesHunt on
IMO, OP got 'the right kind' of reply in post #10 where he was asked for what purpose he needs a DAC.
He answered this in post #13, where he shows that his thinking is so confused that it is difficult to imagine where to start to help him. He starts a thread asking for advice for buying a DAC, and then proceeds to outline a scenario where the DAC is the least of the problems, and the DAC models he is looking at don't help with it at all.

Agreed. In fact it appears that he is looking for what is known to me as a Music Player or Media Player. 

I have four or more of these in my main audio system, none of which I actually obtained intentionally. One is a networked, feature enhanced BD player, another is a networked AVR, the third is a component of a cable company-provided time-shifting DVR with many added features.  The fourth is actually a fifth and sixth, etc.:, a collection of software music players running on a networked PC.

He seemed to more amenable to discussion along this line.

The thread bifurcated into a subthread that might have led into a helpful discussion about music players, while another that related to TOS 8 and did not seem to be going much of anyplace.

Re: Best price/value DAC's

Reply #88 –
Quote from: pelmazo on
Quote from: JamesHunt on
IMO, OP got 'the right kind' of reply in post #10 where he was asked for what purpose he needs a DAC.
He answered this in post #13, where he shows that his thinking is so confused that it is difficult to imagine where to start to help him. He starts a thread asking for advice for buying a DAC, and then proceeds to outline a scenario where the DAC is the least of the problems, and the DAC models he is looking at don't help with it at all.

If he were a computer you would be compelled to push his reset button and reboot, hoping to get him back in a sane state.

Some answers can be seen as an attempt to achieve something like this, but admittedly with a low chance of succeeding.
Yeah, it could have been formed better, but it was understandable and he got answered in post #15 and # 30. What he actually needed was A / V receiver.

What happened between #10, #30, #31 looks like peoples best effort to help, but he got overwhelmed with a lot of information and so called culture shock. Discussion fragmented to different fronts he tried to work with, and useful conversation to fully use features of his Minix NEO-X8-Plus with A / V receiver, regarding features he needed from unit, let's imagine price / feature ratio to look for, got buried in there.

So maybe TOS #8 conversation delivered like with concrete examples in one post, like: 'There's no scientific evidence of USB jitter, nor audible differences between same DAC's no matter what unit they are sold with. If you believe otherwise you must to prove your claim via ABX test.' followed with explanation of ABX and why it's one of the basic principles and it's benefits, what it makes possible (again, 'to separate astronomy from astrology.') would have been enough on that front.

With lot of history and lot of people on forums there are bound to have different opinions of what is the purpose of this community, even if people (click past) agree to rules when registering. For me it's always been information, what and where and how to gather knowledge. Foobar2000 aside, products are made by others.

Certain principles must be held or community loses it's value, but at the same time if the actual purpose is not delivered, no information is transferred to knowledge and nothing actually happens but maintaining status quo.

When I wrote about approaching communication from educational point of view, I was serious. For my own experience, I had good basic education and was lucky enough to have very good mentors at work. However, when it came to teaching I noticed that my knowledge alone just isn't enough to get good results, I need people skills too and taking courses in education was huge help.

So what might be possibly done is creating some sort of how to answer to n00bs guideline, or strategy, and which then again, might turn out to be useful if ideas aren't taken from social media, but instead brought into social media.

Re: Best price/value DAC's

Reply #89 –
Quote from: JamesHunt on
taking courses in education was huge help.
What course would you suggest for "Basic comprehension of TOS"?

btw, loved that '76 championship
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: Best price/value DAC's

Reply #91 –
Quote from: greynol on
I take it that means €800 Gus fucktard* audio jewelry doesn't fit your budget.

Absolutely not. And anyway, I could never afford the modifications. I've had a flood already, some those people want me to burn my house down!
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Re: Best price/value DAC's

Reply #92 –
Sometimes I think new members simply want shopping advice and are hoping for Just Enough Science to make an informed decision. And they're hoping that we'll chime in with answers like "[Product A] totally eliminates jitter, making it suitable for even the most resolving systems".

Culture shock indeed when they're told that the question itself doesn't really make sense. It's a bit like walking into a Dick Blick store and asking for their best paper or paintbrush!

"What size do you want and what sort of media will you be working in?"
"Huh? Why are you asking me that, all I want is your best paper and paintbrush"

Re: Best price/value DAC's

Reply #93 –
It was never going to happen with this turkey, no matter how much any of us sugar-coated a presentation of TOS8.

You know, I was willing to overlook the whole TOS8 thing and get on with a pragmatic discussion about a server-based system, but there were just too many subsequent posts demonstrating complete and willful ignorance of the purpose and importance of bias-controlled testing combined with the pretense that the core principle underpinning the foundation of this forum does not apply, despite persistent nudging.

Re: Best price/value DAC's

Reply #94 –
Quote from: greynol on
I was willing to overlook the whole TOS8 thing and get on with a pragmatic discussion
In that case I know a 70+ yr old Biochemist who doesn't have a clue about physics/EE, that makes an orgasmic DAC in the OPs price range. The value thing we can figure out later.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: Best price/value DAC's

Reply #95 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
... an orgasmic DAC ...

Now there's something deserving of an ABX test.
Regards,
   Don Hills
"People hear what they see." - Doris Day

Re: Best price/value DAC's

Reply #96 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: JamesHunt on
taking courses in education was huge help.
What course would you suggest for "Basic comprehension of TOS"?

btw, loved that '76 championship

The main issue appears to be that most people don't read the terms of service. In addition, some don't search forums if similar exists already or spend their time getting familiar reading the forum and gaining understanding how things are done here. In principle we should not be having this debate at all, reading TOS is what is at least to expected, it doesn't even help if TOS is well formed, like IMO Hydrogen audio's TOS is., In practice however people just click through TOS like EULA agreements.

In the end, TOS #8 surfaces again and again in conversations like this and that's the ground where there is possible to educate new members.

Btw, as useless as nostalgia may be, one of a kind winner really. / end meta.

Quote from: greynol on
It was never going to happen with this turkey, no matter how much any of us sugar-coated a presentation of TOS8.
Sugar coating, or do you mean affective presence? Sugar coating would IMO be counter productive and unnecessary. Social skills applied in education serve purpose to get information passed to pupils knowledge. To put it simply, not every person has the same learning style, despite being intellectually equal. While so called sugar coating might work with some individuals, it might also create environment that could feel paternalistic and self serving to other people. I'm not sure if expanding this conversation to that area would be useful. Of course if someone would volunteer to work with simple English version of, let's say ABX wiki-page, situation could be different, but that's another discussion.

I tried to explain and give examples in my earlier posts what might be implementable. To sum it up.

 - Affective presence is already covered by number of people who relate to situation and try to provide answer, often based on their own experience (relevant examples in my earlier posts).
- Interactivity, social media is by the definition interactive environment. Members attended, tried to understand OP's situation and solutions, however, despite some quite telling things discussion fragmented to what I explained in my earlier post, so stage which should have led to...
- Cohesion (of information to begin with in this case). That didn't happen.

Cognitive presence in these situations could be cohesive force. Information as resource is already here in form of theory and practical knowledge. What could be improved is IMO clarity of information regarding responsibility and how it ties (makes possible) separation of subjective experience passed as knowledge from objective knowledge.

More clear and consistent how responsibilities are shared is passed (avoiding lecturing if possible) more it builds towards cohesion and rewarding inquiring subjects cognitive functions (I know where I am, I know these guys know their stuff, I beginning to understand why they know their stuff -> problem solved / I want to know more).

Re: Best price/value DAC's

Reply #97 –
My two cents: Honestly, ignorance is met with brutal persecution on this forum.

New members will often post in violation of TOS8 without realizing it. They're invariably linked to TOS8, which is good, but they're not always given any significant explanation why they're wrong or even what they're wrong about.
And if the member fails to understand their error(s) by their next post, they're met with open hostility.

I hate to single a post out, but #17 is an example of what i'm talking about.
OP was spouting nonsense, really. But instead of trying to correct their misinformation (a link to a helpful article explaining why 192kHz is unnecessary/harmful perhaps, or that whatever jitter there may be is insignificant), they got... that post. And the couple that followed, mocking them for their ignorance.
One could argue that the information is all on the forum and has been endlessly discussed already, but the new user, like anyone, assumes that what they know is the truth. They don't realize they need to read up on the subject. Which means you don't even have to link an article, simply telling a person what subject they need to search for could be enough.

Occasionally a kind member will attempt to explain things to the new member, often with, in my opinion, an overly long and wordy post, using terms unfamiliar to anyone without advanced knowledge on the subject and going into far more detail than is necessary. Even so, that's a kind move on their part and if the person really wants to learn, then that post just might be the start of something wonderful for them.

You see, i find it sad how much misinformation is out there. I feel like when people come here, we have a chance to open their eyes and show them how things really work, how they don't need to spend thousands to get a decent sound setup, and hopefully they'll even understand well enough to be able to pass the information on.
Sadly, we're more likely to see the first type of post i mentioned rather than the second, and all that potential is lost as the user is driven away.

A note: This site remains a wonderful source of information if one knows what they're doing. Also, i've seen numerous threads that degenerated because the new user was very obviously not here to learn. My quibble is that new users aren't given much of a chance, some of them are here to learn, and like anyone who is learning about literally anything (including each and every one of us), they have misconceptions. They should absolutely not be reviled for them.

Re: Best price/value DAC's

Reply #98 –
As a "recovering audiophile," I can really see that it is not productive to react to some of that audiophile stuff with words to the effect, that's just bullshit. It doesn't help. People need to be shown something convincing. And preferably something a bit gentle! Maybe a wiki page on introductory audiophile misconceptions would help, and would avoid the many pages of repetition.

With a member who simply won't take the hint, or even the flat-out statement, this is not the place for you, then a hundred wiki pages, links to articles, etc etc, would not make any difference. Probably we are lucky to only be up to four pages here!



The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain
 

Re: Best price/value DAC's

Reply #99 –
Quote from: JamesHunt on
The main issue appears to be that most people don't read the terms of service.
That isn't the forum, or members problem. Any more than comprehension thereof.

Quote from: JamesHunt date=1475932611 link=msg=929249] In the end, TOS #8 surfaces again and again in conversations like this [quote author=Webdrifter on
ate=1475437739]
I totally agree with this forums demand for prove. And as an "academic" I strongly believe in double-blind testing.
I also have my doubt on various claims in the audio-branch.
That's why I don't just read ad's but visit forums in the hope that people with "live listening experience" with certain components can advise me on that.
[/quote]
Right. Believers may pay it some lip service from time to time, like above. Then go right on believing, like above.
Good luck with your "education" approach.
Loudspeaker manufacturer