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Topic: How to allocate budget for new stereo system (Read 17258 times) previous topic - next topic
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How to allocate budget for new stereo system

Reply #25 –
Are they literally 40 times better? That's a really hard sell.

Certainly not a wise purchase, if you ask me. Considering what else you could get for $10K, they seem severely underwhelming.

How to allocate budget for new stereo system

Reply #26 –
Quote
Not clear whether that is each or for a pair.

As far as I know it is pair
TheWellTemperedComputer.com

How to allocate budget for new stereo system

Reply #27 –
Quote from: KozmoNaut on
Are they literally 40 times better? That's a really hard sell.

Certainly not a wise purchase, if you ask me. Considering what else you could get for $10K, they seem severely underwhelming.


The obvious rejoinder is that the difference might be better spent on room treatments.

With a budget of just under $10K you might even be able to retain the services of a professional listening room designer who would gut your place and build it right this time.

How to allocate budget for new stereo system

Reply #28 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: KozmoNaut on
Are they literally 40 times better? That's a really hard sell.

Certainly not a wise purchase, if you ask me. Considering what else you could get for $10K, they seem severely underwhelming.


The obvious rejoinder is that the difference might be better spent on room treatments.

With a budget of just under $10K you might even be able to retain the services of a professional listening room designer who would gut your place and build it right this time.


Shush, you'll summon you-know-who with that sort of talk 

There are a lot of things I would do with $10K. Buying a pair of speakers is definitely not one of them. But a resonably well-designed home theater, maybe...

(I wonder if $10K wouldn't actually be enough for that)

How to allocate budget for new stereo system

Reply #29 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
The obvious rejoinder is that the difference might be better spent on room treatments.

Because Arny said so, or valid perceptual evidence based?
Loudspeaker manufacturer

How to allocate budget for new stereo system

Reply #30 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
The obvious rejoinder is that the difference might be better spent on room treatments.

Because Arny said so, or valid perceptual evidence based?


Neither. Both of us have spent some time on audio forums like AVS where this debate is ongoing. AJ why are you pretending otherwise? Not getting enough attention?

But I'll admit it. I have not infrequently asked the same question, but note that it is a question, not a statement of universal fact.

It is common knowledge among expert audiophiles such as Olive etc., that good speakers badly placed in in bad rooms are endemic.

Ooops. No DBTs proving conclusively that people on audio forums not infrequently suggest room acoustics upgrades as alternatives to other audio system upgrades. Therefore according to the great and infallible powers that be it never or rarely happens.

Sorry about that.

How to allocate budget for new stereo system

Reply #31 –
1) This is HA, not AVS or some other non-HA forum.

2) Is it possible to edit your posts so they are coherent? (rhetorical) Maybe ask your wife to proof-read your posts for intelligibility.

How to allocate budget for new stereo system

Reply #32 –
Quote from: greynol on
1) This is HA, not AVS or some other non-HA forum.


Is there a TOS that says that mention of these other forums or activities on them is forbidden?

Are you going to claim there has never been an instance on HA of a recommendation to investigate room acoustics as opposed to other audio upgrades?

I perceived that AJ was being his usual argumentative self by ignoring our common experiences.

Quote
2) Is it possible to edit your posts so they are coherent? (rhetorical) Maybe ask your wife to proof-read your posts for intelligibility.


I was going to suggest the same thing to you. However, I'm not sure you even have a partner.

For example, do you do know that quoting works on your forum, right?  One would never know!

How to allocate budget for new stereo system

Reply #33 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Is there a TOS that says that mention of these other forums or activities on them is forbidden?

No, but there's a rule about posting off-topic.  There's also this one:
Quote from: Dibrom on
2.  All members, at the staff's discretion, must converse in an acceptable  fashion to be allowed the privilege of continued participation.


Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I perceived that AJ was being his usual argumentative self by ignoring our common experiences.

https://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php...st&p=911041

Quote
For example, do you do know that quoting works on your forum, right?

Is it possible to edit your posts so they are coherent? (rhetorical)  Maybe ask your wife to proof-read your posts for intelligibility.

How to allocate budget for new stereo system

Reply #34 –
Arny, you, Greynol and I make three of us who have no idea what you're talking about. AVS??
You brought up a speaker comparison, then some speculation. Here. In this thread. I questioned the basis of your speculation. What the heck does AVS have to do with this?
Loudspeaker manufacturer

How to allocate budget for new stereo system

Reply #35 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote
For example, do you do know that quoting works on your forum, right?

Is it possible to edit your posts so they are coherent? (rhetorical)  Maybe ask your wife to proof-read your posts for intelligibility.


No more so than it would be possible for you to do the same. 

One difference is that your posts have an obvious fault that mine lack. So you sit there complaining about some unintentional fault of mine that you can't really coherently specify, while intentionally avoiding the comprehendability problems of your own.

I really don't know why you have such a burr up your hinney other than you can't tolerate reasoned variations in opinion.

I once thought that we were both pro-DBT, but maybe I'm not into dogma and posturing a la AJ enough for your comfort?

How to allocate budget for new stereo system

Reply #36 –
Not coherent:
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
No DBTs proving conclusively that people on audio forums not infrequently suggest room acoustics upgrades as alternatives to other audio system upgrades. Therefore according to the great and infallible powers that be it never or rarely happens.

...or was it meant to be a joke?  If so then I don't recommend comedy as a line of profession for you.

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
One difference is that your posts have an obvious fault that mine lack.

What, an inability to be as easily characterized this way?

Quote
I once thought that we were both pro-DBT, but maybe I'm not into dogma and posturing a la AJ enough for your comfort?

I am still very much pro-DBT.  When it comes to room treatments, you seem to think they don't apply to you.

How to allocate budget for new stereo system

Reply #37 –
Quote from: greynol on
When it comes to room treatments, you seem to think they don't apply to you.


And where did you get that weird idea?

That convinces me that your problems with reading my posts are yours.  Friendly advice: quit externalizing.

How to allocate budget for new stereo system

Reply #38 –
I don't know what you're all discussing here but I can imagine how the "discussion" looks like with AJ here.

Anyway,
certainly we all can agree that different room treatment products can cause real, measurable differences.  Whether these are preferred or not is a different question.

I guess we can also agree that the "treat your room" advice should not mean that randomly putting panels into your room improves sound, or that every room even needs such products.
"I hear it when I see it."

How to allocate budget for new stereo system

Reply #39 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
And where did you get that weird idea?

Good, then you aren't defending the idea that money should necessarily be spent on room treatments.

How to allocate budget for new stereo system

Reply #44 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
And where did you get that weird idea?

Good, then you aren't defending the idea that money should necessarily be spent on room treatments.


Right.

All generalizations are false. So the idea that in every and all cases, any extra cash would be best spent on the room than the gear is at least occasionally false.

There may be, (and most certainly are) rooms that have equal or better acoustical performance than the  performance of the audio gear they house.

This may have been more frequently the case in earlier decades when the electronics had a lot of issues. The audible equipment warts were surely bigger than those of some of better-designed rooms. Their warts may have been bigger than a lot of listening rooms.  I can still remember back to the 50s and 60s when that was for sure true of the media-related gear (tape, vinyl). Note that the media-related gear did get dramatically improved by digital and the benefits were almost universally perceived regardless of listening rooms.

It was probably true of for example of Hollywood sound stages in the early decades. It may be true of some excellent professionally designed modern listening rooms today.

OTOH among contemporary casually designed residential rooms used for audio, reliably audible (ABX-able) improvements in sound quality due to improved acoustical performance are generally very likely. 

They are there almost every time I look for them with  my ABX gear. Note that I am among the very few people (total=dozens at most) in the world who can and does do hardware ABX. I last (with friends) attempted speaker and room acoustics ABXing  about two months ago, results partially documented on Youtube 

Speaker ABX  pt 1

Speaker ABX  pt 2

How to allocate budget for new stereo system

Reply #45 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
The obvious rejoinder is that the difference might be better spent on room treatments.

FTFY

Ah, he's unsure. Got it. Yeah, me too.


Not all that meaningful because I'm a skeptic. I'm at least a little unsure of just about everything.

How to allocate budget for new stereo system

Reply #46 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I'm at least a little unsure of just about everything.

Whereas I'm absolutely sure by now, that you have zero evidence for the efficacy of treatments you pal peddles and you recommend...as a viable option.
No ABX. No nothing.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

How to allocate budget for new stereo system

Reply #47 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I'm at least a little unsure of just about everything.

Whereas I'm absolutely sure by now, that you have zero evidence for the efficacy of treatments you pal peddles and you recommend...as a viable option.
No ABX. No nothing.


Let me spell it out for you AJ:

(1) Just about every ABX test involving room treatments will be positive for audible differences simply because it is an ABX test involving acoustical differences and they are generally all positive for audible differences.

(2) Technical tests of room treatments generally find differences of the kinds that are clearly audible in ABX tests.

The efficacy of well designed room treatments is generally accepted in the audio world.

How to allocate budget for new stereo system

Reply #48 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
The efficacy of well designed room treatments is "generally accepted" in the audio world.

Spoken like a true studiophile believer.
So you reject DBT results that conflict with your "generally accepted" beliefs http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=16640

Nice. Inventor of ABX eh? I wonder if it was to examine "generally accepted" beliefs in the audio world? Hmmm...
Loudspeaker manufacturer
 

How to allocate budget for new stereo system

Reply #49 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
The efficacy of well designed room treatments is "generally accepted" in the audio world.

Spoken like a true studiophile believer.
So you reject DBT results that conflict with your "generally accepted" beliefs http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=16640


I have that paper here before me. As an AES member I have free access to any journal paper published since 12/2001 and I have the earlier ones as part of a library the AES published on a number of CDs.

Please quote the text that you find in that paper that indicates that the listening tests were DBTs.

Hint: The word blind or any common synonym for it does not seem to appear in the paper.