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Topic: How do you know if your sound is right? (Read 19009 times) previous topic - next topic
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How do you know if your sound is right?

I think the short answer is that you never do.

There is no reference you can tap , as no recording will ever sound like live and how close it comes is dependant on production , what any recording engineer hears is mangled by the control room and the monitors so might sound radically different in your room.

Even the sound you hear at listening position cannot be reconciled with it measuring "flat" as the room gain and treble droop associated with the room as well as any reflections mandate that the FR at listening position is most certainly and should NOT be flat , it is a taste based target curve.

Not even headphones can help , they may be accurate tonally , but there are other shortcomings they cannot overcome that only speakers deliver.
So it essentially all boils down to your own taste and your own ability to suspend disbelief that you are listening to a recording.

Thoughts?

How do you know if your sound is right?

Reply #1 –
What are you actually asking?

Sound is personal. How can you not know this after everything you've read here and elsewhere?

How do you know if your sound is right?

Reply #2 –
Quote
your own ability to suspend disbelief


I'm a little surprised to see these words in conjuction with music listening. This is not a concern for me. I don't listen in order to try and pretend it's a live performance. I listen to the music.

In my experience, you can only notice truly weird things (resonance frequencies, really bad compression artifacts etc), but beyond that, all you can do is try go get your ears before enough equipment so that you can subjectively decide what's good.

Quote
I think the short answer is that you never do.

Correct, IME. Also practical.
Try not get too neurotic about some Platonic ideal of musical representation. One of the best albums I have has pretty bad quality. But the music!

How do you know if your sound is right?

Reply #3 –
What do you mean by sound right?

If I play a recording of my voice through a distorting amp with speakers that have a wonky frequency response then I know it's not right.

It sounds like you are looking for an approval that buying crap is okay because it is all arbitrary anyway - it's not.
"I hear it when I see it."

How do you know if your sound is right?

Reply #4 –
Define "right". If anything, it would be the sound the producer wanted when producing the record. Live sound is only relevant if the producer wanted it to sound like live. It would usually be a bad idea to want that, since even live recordings are usually expected to sound better than the actual live performance. I have often experienced live sound that I wouldn't want on a record, even when the music itself actually was quite good.

In order to get close to the sound that the producer put on the record, one would have to reduce the acoustic peculiarities of one's listening room. There's no single right room response, but there are many ways to have a poor room. Measure, study and experiment. Start reading Floyd Toole's "Sound reproduction".

How do you know if your sound is right?

Reply #5 –
By 'right', I mean a reference. No recording will ever sound like live and how close it comes is dependant on production , what any recording engineer hears is mangled by the control room and the monitors so might sound radically different in your room.

So there is no 'right'.

How do you know if your sound is right?

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Rich B on
By 'right', I mean a reference.

If you have a reference and a certain tolerance range then everything inside that range can be considered 'right', everything outside can be considered 'wrong'.


Quote from: Rich B on
No recording will ever sound like live

Which often isn't even the goal, so the rest of your post is irrelevant.

"I hear it when I see it."

How do you know if your sound is right?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Rich B on
There is no reference you can tap , as no recording will ever sound like live and how close it comes is dependant on production

The thing is: if I produce a recording that sounds close to 'live', people don't like it. Usually, a recording is 'better' than what you hear live, it has less reverb, more stereo separation, less/no coughs and other room noises, less of the acoustics of the room (which can be a problem in small rooms, with bathroom-like sound) etc. Live, people put up with these 'problems', while they do not for recordings.
Music: sounds arranged such that they construct feelings.

How do you know if your sound is right?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Rich B on
By 'right', I mean a reference. No recording will ever sound like live and how close it comes is dependant on production , what any recording engineer hears is mangled by the control room and the monitors so might sound radically different in your room.

So there is no 'right'.

Is your original post a question or just philosophical musing? Unless you have the ability to teleport back and forth between the original performance (assuming it's in the real world and not synthesised in the electronic one) then no comparison is possible, so there is indeed no reference in reality.

That being so, all you can do is to take steps to ensure that the links in the chain from the recording to your ears are as defect-free as possible. Some of those links are out of your control, so you just have to accept that quality was preserved as best as could be (or complain if not). Some of the links are under your control, like the reproducing equipment and room. Some of that is not defect-free and quite likely never will be. So no, you cannot, in reality, know if "your" sound is the same or even close to the reference. The best approximation is likely to be whatever sounds most pleasing to you and allows enjoyment of the piece without noticeable intrusion from the "gear".

EDIT: typos

How do you know if your sound is right?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Rich B on
I think the short answer is that you never do.


That is probably true for most audiophiles, but its not true in the same way for everybody.

Does a critical listener who is recording a live performance have any way to know if his recording sounds right?

Quote
There is no reference you can tap , as no recording will ever sound like live and how close it comes is dependant on production , what any recording engineer hears is mangled by the control room and the monitors so might sound radically different in your room.


I'm in the room where the live performance is happening, and if this is a rehearsal I generally have the option of free or at least partially free movement, and the option to make whatever changes to the recording equipment I so desire.

Quote
Even the sound you hear at listening position cannot be reconciled with it measuring "flat" as the room gain and treble droop associated with the room as well as any reflections mandate that the FR at listening position is most certainly and should NOT be flat , it is a taste based target curve.


I can monitor the live sound of the performance from anywhere in the room. If I am on good terms with the group, I can even walk around among the musicians.

I have a good selection of equalizers and different mics at hand.

Quote
Not even headphones can help , they may be accurate tonally , but there are other shortcomings they cannot overcome that only speakers deliver.


You're just wrong about that, Rich. There are vast shortcomings due to speakers and rooms that headphones inherently overcome. One problem is that recordings are usually designed to be listened to with speakers in rooms, and those speakers and rooms vary all over the map.

How do you know if your sound is right?

Reply #11 –
Quote
You're just wrong about that, Rich. There are vast shortcomings due to speakers and rooms that headphones inherently overcome. One problem is that recordings are usually designed to be listened to with speakers in rooms, and those speakers and rooms vary all over the map.


And headphones don't vary all over the map? The sound with headphones and the sound you hear with speakers are very different. Headphones don't allow you to experience the pressure sensation of very deep bass. It doesn't sound open.

Headphones are not better than speakers, Arnold. That may be an internal bias you have, but it is not one that I share.

How do you know if your sound is right?

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Quote
You're just wrong about that, Rich. There are vast shortcomings due to speakers and rooms that headphones inherently overcome. One problem is that recordings are usually designed to be listened to with speakers in rooms, and those speakers and rooms vary all over the map.


And headphones don't vary all over the map?


They don't have to, but I know, that takes equalization.

The problem with equalizing rooms and speakers is the fact there are many locations where you want the response to be flat. With headphones, the listening location is naturally stable.

Quote
Headphones don't allow you to experience the pressure sensation of very deep bass.


If that hangs you up, there are options. It doesn't hang me up.

Quote
It doesn't sound open.


What audiophiles call Open Sound is usually due to the room and the speakers acting like phase ambiguity generators.  If they understood the reasons why, most audiophiles wouldn't be so hung up on so-called Open Sound.

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Headphones are not better than speakers, Arnold.


Umm Rich, I think that your Audiophila Induced Dementia is kicking in again, and you forgot that my gold reference for sound quality is a straight wire with gain.

You can call that a bias, but its a highly regarded, widespread, and time honored one.

Quote
That may be an internal bias you have, but it is not one that I share.


Please explain to me why headphones are naturally less likely to perform like a straight wire than speakers in a room.

That would be a rhetorical question, realize it or not!

How do you know if your sound is right?

Reply #13 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Headphones don't allow you to experience the pressure sensation of very deep bass.


Why would I want that. I've had that experience. It's terrible. For me, anyway. Hi-fi listening? Headphones all the way!


How do you know if your sound is right?

Reply #14 –
Quote from: Rich B on
By 'right', I mean a reference. No recording will ever sound like live and how close it comes is dependant on production , what any recording engineer hears is mangled by the control room and the monitors so might sound radically different in your room.

So there is no 'right'.

Exactly. So the built in 1" speakers on my laptop playing recorded music, sound just as good as your Paradigm home system, because I honestly said so and like you said, there is no right.

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

How do you know if your sound is right?

Reply #15 –
If we ignore for one moment the gross limitations of 2 channel recordings, then headphones are to stereo loudspeakers what virtual reality head-mounted displays are to conventional computer monitors.

However, 'visceral' bass impact is something that you'd have to add extra.
"I hear it when I see it."

How do you know if your sound is right?

Reply #16 –
Quote
The problem with equalizing rooms and speakers is the fact there are many locations where you want the response to be flat.


Flat DOES NOT sound good. I can't imagine anyone who would want flat at the listening position, or any other location in a room.

How do you know if your sound is right?

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Quote
The problem with equalizing rooms and speakers is the fact there are many locations where you want the response to be flat.


Flat DOES NOT sound good.


That is an audiophile myth.

First off, which flat response are you referring to?

With speakers in rooms there are many kinds of flat response:

A speaker with flat on-axis response?

A speaker with flat power response?

A speaker in a large room?

A speaker in a small room?

A speaker in a dead room?

A speaker in a reverberent room?

If you measure any of the above, in general one kind of flat precludes all or most of the others.  Many of them coexist at different locations in the same room.

You can't concurrently satisfy all of the necessary requirements.

OTOH the following is as good of a definition of the kind of flat you want with headphones:

Headphones with flat response including correction for the known sensitivity variations in the human ear that differ from free-field listening.

That is just one thing.

I was speaking figuratively - flat response in accordance with some reasonable goal.

It doesn't matter which flat I'm talking about, it can't be achieved in all or even a reasonable collection of locations in a room.

Quote
I can't imagine anyone who would want flat at the listening position, or any other location in a room.


I can, and here is an example of an authority who says as much:

Genelec's view of optimal target response

"
What should be the target response of a monitoring system at the listening position?
First, the role of a monitoring system is to reproduce sound without adding or taking anything away from the original input signal. The reason for such a definition is that the human hearing features a phenomenon called Auditory Masking* and that modern recording systems have a flat electronic frequency response. So, to accurately monitor what is recorded on the hard drive or tape machine, the monitoring system must also have a flat response at the listening position.

Secondly, onto the often quoted "final mix translation" issue, one can observe that domestic and car audio systems are generally improving over time and having better, i.e. flatter, frequency response. As a general note, a good mix should sound good on any system. The average of many different reproduction systems actually tends towards a flat frequency response.

The above arguments lead to the conclusion that a monitoring system must somehow yield a flat response at the listening position. Genelec monitors have a flat response in anechoic conditions. When the monitors are placed into a listening room, their response changes and the built-in Room Response Controls can be used to retrieve a flat response at listening position.

One exception to this rule is the X-Curves as used in the movie industry. Movie theatre replay systems are installed in very large rooms (e.g. a movie theatre for 200-800 people) and the frequency response across the audience area is never flat. The Dubbing Stage must replicate this response so that the mix translates precisely to the Movie Theatre. Note that the soundtracks for the release of movies on DVD's are re-mixed on flat response monitoring systems for reproduction in domestic environments.
"

So there you have it, flat response in a room is desirable under one listening condition, and not for another. There isn't just one flat response.

How do you know if your sound is right?

Reply #18 –
The problem is that even if we wish to "correct" something that doesn't sound "right", in the real world the appropriate corection will vary greatly on a case by case basis.

Luckily, in the modern world if one really wishes to "correct" something, then they could process individual recordings in SW on a case by case basis very precisely and inexpensively!

How do you know if your sound is right?

Reply #19 –
Rich B, why do you bring this up again? We already discussed 'flatness' of different types of responses here.

Several people have tried explaining this to you, and also pointed you to further scientific resources.
"I hear it when I see it."

How do you know if your sound is right?

Reply #20 –
Quote
How do you know if your sound is right?
If you are enjoying the music, that's what matters!  I don't care if my system sounds exactly  like what the mixing engineer (or mastering engineer) heard in the studio...  If it sounds good or if it "sounds awesome" to me, that's all I ask for...    (And, I've been around long enough to have a fairly good idea of what good-accurate sound sounds like.)

If there's a defect or weakness in your playback system that distracts you or detracts from your enjoyment, you might want to upgrade.  Otherwise, sit back and enjoy the music! 

If I'm listening to a vinyl record (which i never do), the vinyl noise detracts from my enjoyment.  The poor quality of AM radio detracts from my enjoyment if I'm listening to music (I don't know if they even play music on AM anymore).  If I'm listening to news in the car, AM is perfectly acceptable to me.    If I'm watching TV, I'm generally perfectly happy with the TVs cheap built-in speakers.    I might even watch a movie with the TV's speakers.    But, if there's music in the movie (especially if it's "good music" or if it's a musical) I'll turn-on the surround sound.

The factory sound system in my Honda is "acceptable" but the custom sound system in my van is even more enjoyable to me.   

Quote
The thing is: if I produce a recording that sounds close to 'live', people don't like it. Usually, a recording is 'better' than what you hear live, it has less reverb, more stereo separation, less/no coughs and other room noises, less of the acoustics of the room
I prefer live music.  But, the amount of reverb you hear in a music hall sounds unnatural to me in my living room.  A little extra-artificial reverb in the rear channels in my living room sounds better to me than the same reverb added to the front speakers.  (I use one of the Dolby soundfield options when listening to stereo recordings).

And the truth is, I really don't want  to hear the sound of a real-live cymbal crash, trumpet, Marshall stack, etc. in my living room!

I find it easier to ignore noise (coughing etc.) when those noises come from a different direction...  If they come from the stage or the sound reinforcement system, or from my home speakers those noises can be distracting or even annoying. 

And of course, I've heard rock bands in terrible sounding rooms, or where the room was just "wrong" for the style of music.    In that case, a good studio recording would sound better (to my taste).

How do you know if your sound is right?

Reply #21 –
I find simply listening to a recording of someone speaking, or a single instrument playing (violin is best IMO) - and then comparing the reproduced sound to a real person or instrument in the room - that shows you how hopeless two channel stereo is at re-creating even the simplest "live" experience. It's still vanishingly rare to genuinely think "oh, that's a real person talking" or "oh, that's a real person playing" when it's just a recording. What mostly happens is that people think "oh, that's a really good recording" - which proves that it isn't.

I was tricked by a recording of a solo trumpet once. From the next room at least. Though perversely, sometimes "from the next room" makes recording vs real even easier to pick out.


As others have said, thankfully it's still easy to enjoy recordings. Try to remove any problems with the reproduction that a) annoy you, and b) can easily be removed with commercially available recordings and reproduction methods.

Cheers,
David.

How do you know if your sound is right?

Reply #22 –
Quote
There are vast shortcomings due to speakers and rooms that headphones inherently overcome. One problem is that recordings are usually designed to be listened to with speakers in rooms, and those speakers and rooms vary all over the map.


If that's the case, then no need for speakers. Headphones are the gold standard right?
 

How do you know if your sound is right?

Reply #23 –
So what is the point of HIFI, or is there no point to HIFI? Is it really about trying as best as possible to recreate the sound of a live perfrormance (since we established that reference is probably unobtainuim) or is it really what sounds best to you? If it's the latter then anyone can just claim for their 'sound' to the hifi.

How do you know if your sound is right?

Reply #24 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
I find simply listening to a recording of someone speaking, or a single instrument playing (violin is best IMO) - and then comparing the reproduced sound to a real person or instrument in the room - that shows you how hopeless two channel stereo is at re-creating even the simplest "live" experience. It's still vanishingly rare to genuinely think "oh, that's a real person talking" or "oh, that's a real person playing" when it's just a recording.


And yet a cough, for instance, in a live recording, can have me turning round to find out who has come into my room.


Quote from: Rich B on
If that's the case, then no need for speakers. Headphones are the gold standard right?


Suggest you spend more time on the headphone sites, both those that are deeply subjective and those that offer measurements (blind tests is hard: they
feel different. If they were "gold standard" they'd all sound the same "right," right?

How do you know if your sound is right? The real answer? See people's reactions when you talk to them .
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain