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Topic: Nero AAC Development (Read 66589 times) previous topic - next topic
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Nero AAC Development

Reply #25 –
Yeah, thank you, me too.
People buy PS3 for using it as BD Player & they never use it for gaming.
AAC really doesn't support CBR?
When I converting files in VBR mode, I hearing the hissy sound.
I remember when I played Doom 3.
The audio format used in Doom 3 is Vorbis.
Always cancer hissy sound is Doom 3. 
Also, Resident Evil 4 (PC) too.
I always hears hissy sound when I convert any files with VBR mode, specially in Vorbis & MP3.
With poor quality sound cards, you can hear more hiss.

Nero AAC Development

Reply #26 –
Quote from: CPKTV on
Yeah, thank you, me too.
People buy PS3 for using it as BD Player & they never use it for gaming.
AAC really doesn't support CBR?
When I converting files in VBR mode, I hearing the hissy sound.
I remember when I played Doom 3.
The audio format used in Doom 3 is Vorbis.
Always cancer hissy sound is Doom 3. 
Also, Resident Evil 4 (PC) too.
I always hears hissy sound when I convert any files with VBR mode, specially in Vorbis & MP3.
With poor quality sound cards, you can hear more hiss.

Most of the sound files on Doom 3 was encoded in Vorbis at 56kbps and it does sound bad, and it was a shame that Trent Reznor quit doing the sound effects for this game. This game could have had a awesome soundtrack like Quake. But instead, Doom 3 has a pistol thats sounds like stapler and Imps that make car skidding noises .

Also i have encountered a similar problem with GTA 4 on XBox 360. The audio on the radio stations sound really compressed to hell like if was encoded at 56kbps. I could hear some artifacts on some of the music on my cheap HD LCD TV.

Its a shame that the Cell CPU is sorta bottlenecking the nVIDIA RSX GPU, with its memory controller that programmers have to work with. Which makes it end up like the Sega Saturn.

Also RE 4 for the PC, was a yet another awfull console to PC port.
"I never thought I'd see this much candy in one mission!"

Nero AAC Development

Reply #27 –
Quote from: /mnt on
Its a shame that the Cell CPU is sorta bottlenecking the nVIDIA RSX GPU, with its memory controller that programmers have to work with. Which makes it end up like the Sega Saturn.


Not to go too, too far off topic but the GPU is bottlenecking the CPU.  The PS3 gets most of its power from its cell processor where as the Xbox 360 gets most of its power from the GPU.  That is why both consoles can produce the same (or nearly the same) results and will probably always produce around the same results.  The Nvidia GPU used in the PS3 is extremely dated (it was derived from the 6800/6900 line).  In fact, it was already outdated the second the console launched.

Edit:  As to the hissing, that has nothing to do with AAC VBR.  That has to do with either the source audio or the VBR setting that you are choosing.  Remember that a 128kbps CBR file would correspond to a 128kbps VBR file.  A hiss that can be heard at 128kbps CBR can probably still be heard at 128kbps VBR (or vice versa).

Nero AAC Development

Reply #28 –
Sorry, but I never use VBR mode for archiving.
Vorbis quality in 56KB is horrible. 
AAC is a VBR format like Vorbis & MPC?
I prefer Lossy WavPack instead of all VBR formats.

Nero AAC Development

Reply #29 –
Quote from: CPKTV on
Sorry, but I never use VBR mode for archiving.
Vorbis quality in 56KB is horrible. 
AAC is a VBR format like Vorbis & MPC?
I prefer Lossy WavPack instead of all VBR formats.


That's OK , I don't doubt that 56 k isn't great. But be prepared to backup your VBR views with some objective data here. AAC is VBR - at least with Nero.

Nero AAC Development

Reply #31 –
If you come to a specialized audio forum, and ask for questions, I expect that you take advise.

First, leave out your years-old ideas that VBR = bad and CBR = best. This is plainly wrong nowadays (and has been for the past years).
VBR lets a codec adapt to the changes throughout the audio, spending more bits where the complexity is high.
Properly tuned encoders can make good judgements on the complexity, and adapt correctly over the restictions the format imposes.

Next, specifically about AAC, the format is VBR. The CBR mode is an ABR mode that works on a small window. (See http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=ABR for extensive info on ABR).

The fact that Nero produces a file slightly bigger than that of Winamp is just annectodal, and has to do with the way Nero has been tuned. Probably could be fixed, and definitely you can change the parameters of the commandline to make it output the bitrate you want.

At last, VBR does not produce hiss, and definitely hiss is not an artifact of lossy encoders (lossyWav/wavPack aside). That hiss either is not hiss (and you meant ringing, flanging, warbling, ....) or the hiss was in the original file.

Nothing wrong in you preffering hybrid lossless to plain lossy. But at least, that your reasoning not be something you've imagined.

Nero AAC Development

Reply #32 –
Quote from: kornchild2002 on
Quote from: /mnt on


Its a shame that the Cell CPU is sorta bottlenecking the nVIDIA RSX GPU, with its memory controller that programmers have to work with. Which makes it end up like the Sega Saturn.


Not to go too, too far off topic but the GPU is bottlenecking the CPU.  The PS3 gets most of its power from its cell processor where as the Xbox 360 gets most of its power from the GPU.  That is why both consoles can produce the same (or nearly the same) results and will probably always produce around the same results.  The Nvidia GPU used in the PS3 is extremely dated (it was derived from the 6800/6900 line).  In fact, it was already outdated the second the console launched.

Edit:  As to the hissing, that has nothing to do with AAC VBR.  That has to do with either the source audio or the VBR setting that you are choosing.  Remember that a 128kbps CBR file would correspond to a 128kbps VBR file.  A hiss that can be heard at 128kbps CBR can probably still be heard at 128kbps VBR (or vice versa).


Sorry to be off topic again, I agree that the PS3 GPU become outdated when it was released. Just like the same bleak fate that the PS2 had when it was just released, such as no pixel pipelines and shaders, that made id Software's programmer John Carmack comment at it for being out of date on its first year. Also the RSX is based on the GeForce 7800, with a 128bit memory bus instead of 256. Just like the  nVidia's GeForce 8600, the major bottleneck on the RSX is the memory bus.

Am just wondering, if there is incorrect track lengh time on those AAC files, and might have coursed the hissing. Since older versions of Nero AAC, such as Feb 07 build, has a bug that writes the incorrect track time. It can be fixed by using MP4Box to reformat the MP4 container or use the latest version of Nero AAC.
"I never thought I'd see this much candy in one mission!"

Nero AAC Development

Reply #33 –
I have many original audio CDs.
I never buy a digital song, only audio CDs.
Vorbis produce significant noise/hiss in Post-Grunge/Heavy Metal songs.(specially below 128K)
LAME produce less noise/hiss in VBR too.

Nero AAC Development

Reply #34 –
Its a known issue with vorbis esp with older versions. lame can also do at lower vbr setting but ringing / pre echo are its trademark.

Nero AAC Development

Reply #35 –
CPKTV, this noise isn't problem of a VBR mode. This is the problem of unsuitable codec or too low bitrate.

Nero AAC Development

Reply #36 –
Quote from: lvqcl on
CPKTV, this noise isn't problem of a VBR mode. This is the problem of unsuitable codec or too low bitrate.


Low bitrates yes, but:
LAME 3.97 is unstable?

Nero AAC Development

Reply #38 –
Quote from: greynol on
This is beginning to sound a lot like the banned user Sina. 


I think you might be right.  Although this one seems to be lacking insults or cursing.

Quote from: /mnt on
Sorry to be off topic again, I agree that the PS3 GPU become outdated when it was released. Just like the same bleak fate that the PS2 had when it was just released, such as no pixel pipelines and shaders, that made id Software's programmer John Carmack comment at it for being out of date on its first year. Also the RSX is based on the GeForce 7800, with a 128bit memory bus instead of 256. Just like the  nVidia's GeForce 8600, the major bottleneck on the RSX is the memory bus.


Dammit, I don't know why I said 6800.  I have the documentation right in front of me.  I guess I was thinking about my notebook's GPU when I was posting this.  But yeah, the PS3's GPU is based off of the 7800 line.  The GPU in the PS3 is still its limiting factor (aside from the major design flaw of the cell having one processor to control all the cells, it should have had at least a dual-core chip for that).  It is a shame that Sony would have a new processor and yet not take the same route that Microsoft did for their GPU.  Eh, that is a different discussion for a different set of forums.

Nero AAC Development

Reply #40 –
Quote from: kornchild2002 on
Quote from: greynol on
This is beginning to sound a lot like the banned user Sina. 

I think you might be right.  Although this one seems to be lacking insults or cursing.

They have the same birthday and their IP addresses come from the same corner of the globe.

Nero AAC Development

Reply #41 –
Quote from: senab on
Utter rubbish. Most Kenwood, Sony and Pioneer car audio systems support AAC. Regarding DVD Players/Home audio Systems, the PlayStation3, Wii and Xbox 360 all support AAC. I know FAR more people who use these devices as for home audio than some obscure system. Also there's Slingbox.

Yes, car audio devices support it quite well. But:
Almost ANY multimedia devices of big companies which we typically use for video as well as audio playback, do NOT support AAC. I'm talking about devices like Philips DVP 5980. This is why unfortunately I have to use mp3.

Nero AAC Development

Reply #42 –
Quote from: Lodl on
Yes, car audio devices support it quite well. But:
Almost ANY multimedia devices of big companies which we typically use for video as well as audio playback, do NOT support AAC. I'm talking about devices like Philips DVP 5980. This is why unfortunately I have to use mp3.


I guess that all depends on what you definition of multimedia devices from big companies is.  The iPod is the biggest multimedia device ever released and it supports AAC playback.  The Xbox 360 and PS3 (games are media too) are two huge media devices from really big companies that support AAC playback as well.  If you are talking about $20 DVD players down at Wal-Mart then yes, I would agree with you as AAC support is lacking.  However, Blu-ray players from Sony support the AAC format and many other home theater all-in-one box systems support iPods and the AAC format.  So AAC support is growing with every generation of hardware and it will only be a matter of time until it is near that of mp3 support.  Also, many cellphones support the playback of AAC audio files from big manufacturers such as Sony, Motorola, and LG.

I also don't think it is unfortunate that you have to use mp3 as I find the Lame mp3 encoder to be top notch.

Nero AAC Development

Reply #43 –
Quote from: kornchild2002 on
If you are talking about $20 DVD players down at Wal-Mart then yes, I would agree with you as AAC support is lacking.

Yes, I'm talking about DVD players, simply DVD players, but I disagree here: It's the cheap players which sometimes support aac (xoro afaik). All the big companies players (Philips, Sony, Pioneer, Kenwood, ...) don't.
What aac capable DVD-Player would you recommend for me?

Nero AAC Development

Reply #44 –
Quote from: Lodl on
Yes, I'm talking about DVD players, simply DVD players, but I disagree here: It's the cheap players which sometimes support aac (xoro afaik). All the big companies players (Philips, Sony, Pioneer, Kenwood, ...) don't.
What aac capable DVD-Player would you recommend for me?


Well, my roommate has an LG model that upscales DVDs to 1080i and has a direct USB support for iPods.  It can play AAC files off of iPods, USB thumb drives, data CDs, or data DVDs.  I don't even know if they make that model anymore but it came in an all-in-one home theater in a box system.  Ah wait, here is the newer model that is a stand-alone DVD player for $80 and it upconverts DVDs to 1080p.  It supports standard mpeg-4 videos, mpeg-4 AVC videos, and mpeg-4 AAC audio files.  There is also a Panasonic model (the DVD-S54K) that supports AAC files as well for $90.  So AAC support is gaining with popular manufacturers and Sony has already implemented it in their Blu-ray players.

Nero AAC Development

Reply #45 –
Quote from: kornchild2002 on
Ah wait, here is the newer model that is a stand-alone DVD player for $80 and it upconverts DVDs to 1080p.  It supports standard mpeg-4 videos, mpeg-4 AVC videos, and mpeg-4 AAC audio files.
This isn't available in Europe afaics. And the german LG website has this one as their current dvd player, but it does not support AAC.
Well and Panasonic.de does not give me an S54k, but S54 and I don't find AAC audio mentioned there.
I'm still under the impression that AAC support on DVD/Home theater players is almost non existant

Nero AAC Development

Reply #46 –
Quote from: kornchild2002 on
Well, my roommate has an LG model that upscales DVDs to 1080i and has a direct USB support for iPods.  It can play AAC files off of iPods, USB thumb drives, data CDs, or data DVDs.  I don't even know if they make that model anymore but it came in an all-in-one home theater in a box system.  Ah wait, here is the newer model that is a stand-alone DVD player for $80 and it upconverts DVDs to 1080p.  It supports standard mpeg-4 videos, mpeg-4 AVC videos, and mpeg-4 AAC audio files.  There is also a Panasonic model (the DVD-S54K) that supports AAC files as well for $90.  So AAC support is gaining with popular manufacturers and Sony has already implemented it in their Blu-ray players.

I couldn't find any mention of AAC audio or AVC video in the specs for any of the LG players I've seen. Do you have a link that covers these more thoroughly, or are you simply describing what you've seen your roommate's device play? (Edit: Yes, I've already checked the link in your original post....)

If there really is a DVD (or Blu-ray) player on the market that supports AAC in an *.m4a container, and AVC in an *.m4v container - so that my wife and I could use anything I've encoded for her iPhone, or for FrontRow on her Mac - it would be a most welcome revelation!

    - M.

Nero AAC Development

Reply #47 –
Quote from: Lodl on
This isn't available in Europe afaics. And the german LG website has this one as their current dvd player, but it does not support AAC.
Well and Panasonic.de does not give me an S54k, but S54 and I don't find AAC audio mentioned there.
I'm still under the impression that AAC support on DVD/Home theater players is almost non existant


Well, you asked for a player and didn't specify a region.  You might be right about European availability of DVD players or home theater systems that don't support AAC but you are wrong about U.S. availability.  AAC is gaining popularity (mainly due to the iPod) and there are a handful of products that support AAC digital audio files over here in the U.S.

Quote from: M on
I couldn't find any mention of AAC audio or AVC video in the specs for any of the LG players I've seen. Do you have a link that covers these more thoroughly, or are you simply describing what you've seen your roommate's device play? (Edit: Yes, I've already checked the link in your original post....)

If there really is a DVD (or Blu-ray) player on the market that supports AAC in an *.m4a container, and AVC in an *.m4v container - so that my wife and I could use anything I've encoded for her iPhone, or for FrontRow on her Mac - it would be a most welcome revelation!

    - M.


I am just going off of personal experience as Best Buy and LG simply mention mpeg-4 support, they don't give any specifics.  My roommate has been able to plug their iPod in and play AAC music, video podcasts (in the mpeg-4 AVC format), and some iTunes Plus music videos (also in the mpeg-4 AVC format).  I know that Sony's Blu-ray player (their $399 model) supports mpeg-4 AAC audio though as someone on the PS3 forums purchased it, tried it out, and compared it against the PS3.  I have seen their LG unit work in person though and can vouch for it.  I haven't seen the LG unit I linked in person but it was the older model.  I tried looking it up on the internet and, as I suspected, LG moved onto a couple newer models.  Still, I don't know why LG would include such a nice feature in an older home theater system and not include it in a newer one.

Nero AAC Development

Reply #48 –
Quote from: CPKTV on
AAC really doesn't support CBR?

It does, it's just that you don't understand how CBR is defined by the AAC standard. CBR within AAC is defined using buffer that should not overflow or underflow, but does not mean that every frame should be of identical size. (in the same way as CBR is defined for MPEG2/4 video)
 

Nero AAC Development

Reply #49 –
So how is dev coming along anyway?