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Topic: Buy a DAC: one more try? (Read 5715 times) previous topic - next topic
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Buy a DAC: one more try?

Hi again.  I’m looking for a good way to connect a mac mini to my preamp and really need some help. One option I’ve considered is to use Apple’s analog output. However, I’m using that for something else and the distance from the PC to the preamp is rather long.  Therefore, since my preamp does not have any means for digital input, I will need to purchase a DAC.  It seems that there are three remaining options (thanks greynol):  1) squeezebox (or similar network player), 2) stand alone DAC, or 3) a A/V receiver that has digital input and an output suitable for a preamp.

I just tried the squeezebox touch solution and am finding it unworkable.  The key difficulty is that my eyesight is not very good and the display is difficult to read and navigate.  This just gets worse if I’m using a remote from across the room.  The second disadvantage is that I haven’t been able control the squeezebox touch from my networked PC.  Does anyone know if this can be done?  I tried the ‘squeezePlay’ software but that only appears to control music on the local PC hosting the app (i.e. an iTunes replacement).

What I really need is something that can connect to my mac via a USB interface that can be controlled via Songbird or iTunes.  I am willing to spend somewhat of a premium to get one reliable, well made, and compatible with Apple’s operating system.  What do folks suggest?  I’m intrigued by the USB soundcard suggestion (thanks DVDdoug).  Is anybody having a good experience with the Apple platform and such a device?  What is recommended? Alternatively, there are many brands of stand alone DACs.  What would be a mainstream recommendation be?

Any advice is appreciated.  Please!

Buy a DAC: one more try?

Reply #1 –
Have you tried Roku?

Roku Soundbridge


It works well with my iMac and it is compatible with iTunes (but also works with firefly server).

Buy a DAC: one more try?

Reply #3 –
How about something from Sonos?

Honestly, the whole USB external DAC idea is something that can end up costing a lot and doing not much of anything that's worth that cost.

Quote from: greynol on
What about an Apple AirPort Express?


This is new to me.  I've got to say, I've become increasingly impressed with Apple lately.  If you are willing to move into the ecosystem you can certainly get a lot!

Buy a DAC: one more try?

Reply #4 –
Good suggestions so far.  Thank you.

I looked into the Roku soundbridge but it is not longer sold.  From what I understand the AirPort Express is a wireless node/router and does not have a DAC so I think I’d have to be able to use the PC analog output which isn’t an option at this point (using it for something else). 

After looking somewhat intently for the last few days I’d have to say that I agree with odigg.  Most of the DACs I found are overpriced.  For example, I couldn’t see paying $300 for Musical Fidelity’s V-DAC or many of the other very expensive options.  At least with the Cambridge DAC Magic once can play around with the some digital filters (curious about that) as well as knowing the signal is getting cleaned up.  Though, admittedly, based on my non-listening research these last weeks, that is likely to be overkill from a sonic perspective (likely only from the standpoint that i haven't done ABX tests myself).  Sure am glad I came across this site and the helpful folks here. 

Sonos is something I hadn’t considered.  After doing some research it seems to fit the bill and, as a bonus, can it be expanded.  Doesn’t even need a digital link to the mini since I have a Ethernet cable available directly near the preamp. I ordered the ZP90 for $350, though that’s $50 more than the squeezebox (would think it should be less since it has no touch screen).  Unfortunately the companion Sonos remote (with touch screen) is another $350.  I’m not sure if it is worth that so, since the iTouch app is free I’ll try that first if the player works out.

Does anyone know some details about the what’s happening inside the Sonos?  What processing does it use, is there any upsampling or 24/192 conversion on the output?  Given that is can decompress FLAC, I’d think it would reclock the input stream but I couldn’t find any information on that either.  Perhaps a PLL? As I know a little about the DSP underpinnings of a DAC I’d sure like to know what I’m getting.

Earl

Buy a DAC: one more try?

Reply #5 –
One of the reasons that home audio (not professional) DACs are so expensive is because they fall in the "luxury" category and are priced accordingly.  There isn't much of a reason for them to exist other than to satisfy the group of people who think they need one because the DAC built into their existing HT/Home Audio devices is not up to the task of transparently reproducing audio.  As always, there is little evidence from controlled testing to support the need for these external DACs.  Outside of the "I can hear the differences in filters" argument, I haven't seen much ABX evidence to support audible differences with the different digital filters selection in many of these DACs.

There are a number of *relatively* inexpensive DACs that are direct exports from Asia.  An example of this is the Super Pro 707.  It's received good reviews (although I've never seen measurements) and I don't know about the longevity of the device.  Some of these products are quite badly put together (e.g. bad solder joints), but the same can be said for some of the electronic junk you see in a typical local superstore, or even some "High End" audio products. 

Sellers like Obad Imports import and resell devices like these in North America.  I have never used the 707 device or purchased from this seller so please don't think I'm making any recommendations.

Inexpensive and full featured DACs/ADCs exist in the pro-audio world, but they are typically function over form and so do not fit the elegance factor of a living room.

Quote
From what I understand the AirPort Express is a wireless node/router and does not have a DAC so I think I’d have to be able to use the PC analog output which isn’t an option at this point (using it for something else).


I'm somewhat perplexed by this comment and your decision to buy a Sonos ZP90.  The Sonos system doesn't have a DAC in the sense that you are looking for.  The coax/optical connections of the ZP90 are for output only.  You can then connect the ZP90 to an external DAC or HT receiver. 

You cannot connect your computer's optical out to the Sonos.

The Airport Express and Sonos ZP90 basically serve the same function.  Both read data from a network device (Computer, NAS) and converts it into either an analog or digital out.  As an additional feature (from what I've read), the Airport Express has the advantage that you don't need a physical Ethernet wire.  It can connect to your existing wireless network.

As for what's going on inside the Sonos, the specs state it only supports 44.1khz natively.  Other rates, up to 48khz, are supported by what I assume is resampling.  I suspect this means there is no support for 24bit files, but don't quote me on this.

Buy a DAC: one more try?

Reply #6 –
Quote from: ListenToThis on
From what I understand the AirPort Express is a wireless node/router and does not have a DAC

Yes, the AirPort Express has a DAC. 

Quote from: ListenToThis on
I have a Ethernet cable available directly near the preamp.

Funny that you would mention this.  I'm trying to put together a system for a friend who just moved into a new place and have been thinking about a good inexpensive way for her to stream music and in which rooms to put her components.  Anyway, without going into the connection details, I'm considering either the AirPort Express or the Western Digital TV Live Plus:
http://www.wdc.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=832

I've looked at the Sonos and the various Squeezebox products and think they are overpriced (especially the Sonos).  I understand that Sonos has their own wireless hardware/protocol to make sure that music is synchronized between rooms, but for a dwelling with music in just one room, this seems rather pointless.

Buy a DAC: one more try?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: greynol on
I've looked at the Sonos and the various Squeezebox products and think they are overpriced (especially the Sonos).  I understand that Sonos has their own wireless hardware/protocol to make sure that music is synchronized between rooms, but for a dwelling with music in just one room, this seems rather pointless.


I highly recommend you take a close look at the Squeezebox TOUCH. I'm biased as I have lots of Squeezeboxes (transporter, booms, classic, touch), but the TOUCH seems like a particularly good deal at about $300. Analog outs & S/PDIF via coax or optical. Plays FLAC and mp3 natively. All my units work very well and I recently set up my brother with a TOUCH. He runs it using the built in "server" reading about 54,000 mp3 files from an attached USB harddrive.

Buy a DAC: one more try?

Reply #9 –
I stand corrected.  The Airport express does have a DAC (thanks greynol, I should have looked at the features/tech specs in the first place!).  I also confirmed that I wouldn’t need the Ethernet cable for just this use (not a problem though - Ethernet cable is wired throughout my house).  So it is possible to convert the 3.5mm Airport express audio minijack to RCA L/R connectors and plug into my preamp.  It essentially does what the aperion does for less money.  Though, I must say the aperion concept is really interesting.  So it’s either an Airport express or a less expensive USB DAC. 

Wow, I must of spent most the weekend searching/googling for inexpensive DACs and didn’t come up with any of the suggestions listed (mostly got DAC’s costing over $600!).  Thanks odigg for your input.  No worries mentioning the seller.  I really appreciate getting the ideas to provide options.  In addition to the 707, one of the sellers I googled also had some other options (Silverstone EB01 and “DAC in the Box”).  My inclination is to lean toward a wired solution so I’m going to look at these options closely. 

Although I ordered the Sonos, I already ran into a problem with that system.  I have digitized 24 bit/ 96Khz files and my collection is growing.  However, according to several users on the Sonos forum it only recognizes 16/44.1.  Unbelievably, it doesn’t even downsample!  It just rejects the stream outright.  This is not a question regarding the merits of one format vs the other (that’s way off topic), rather it’s the case that I’d have to keep track of and convert these files specifically for Sonos.  Unless there is some good reason to do this, I’d really rather stick to bit-correct storage of all my music – whatever the bits are.  This, in addition to the cost factor I mentioned before, means I’ll be returning it.  A wide range of formats is definitely an advantage of the Squeezebox touch. 

garym, I did have a Squeezebox touch for a while but I didn’t like the interface for selecting music.  Since I have poor eyesight, the remote was useless to me and I'd have to have my reading glasses on everytime I wanted to make a chage directly.  I did try direct web access from the Media PC to my ReadyNAS server but that didn’t work right (in addition to being very slow).  So I returned it.  Don’t think I’ve ever gone through a series of purchase & returns like this before. 

Buy a DAC: one more try?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: garym on
I highly recommend you take a close look at the Squeezebox TOUCH. I'm biased as I have lots of Squeezeboxes (transporter, booms, classic, touch), but the TOUCH seems like a particularly good deal at about $300. Analog outs & S/PDIF via coax or optical. Plays FLAC and mp3 natively. All my units work very well and I recently set up my brother with a TOUCH. He runs it using the built in "server" reading about 54,000 mp3 files from an attached USB harddrive.

The WD TV Live Plus does native flac, mp3, and numerous audio AND video formats (including HD output).  It can play via USB drive, NAS, or network shares.  Wireless can be added via ethernet or 2nd USB port.  At half the price of a Touch, it is a far better deal.

Because the menu system is displayed on the TV, it would also appear to be a much better match for the ListenToThis who has expressed concerns about his eyesight.

EDIT: Oops, I see the ListenToThis already reiterated his issues with the Touch not meeting his eyesight requirements.

Buy a DAC: one more try?

Reply #11 –
Quote from: ListenToThis on
Wow, I must of spent most the weekend searching/googling for inexpensive DACs and didn’t come up with any of the suggestions listed (mostly got DAC’s costing over $600!).  Thanks odigg for your input.  No worries mentioning the seller.  I really appreciate getting the ideas to provide options.  In addition to the 707, one of the sellers I googled also had some other options (Silverstone EB01 and “DAC in the Box”).  My inclination is to lean toward a wired solution so I’m going to look at these options closely.


It doesn't surprise me that you had trouble finding these less expensive solutions.  The crowd that typically buys external DACs has a pretty solid bias against cheaper devices.  Somehow the cheaper stuff always sound worse  People will stick to "more expensive = better" even when it's been demonstrated that the more expensive device is worse (e.g. terrible measurements) or is simply a rebadge of a cheaper item.  At the end the cheaper devices always vanish out of the common consciousnesses on many forums.

I'm reluctant to recommend the products you've listed because I'm always skeptical about these boutique products.  There are some great devices out there but I'd have to personally use one so I can measure it and see the insides.  Only then I could I say go ahead and buy one.

If you are prepared to have something that's somewhat ugly (hide it somewhere!) I'd highly recommend the EMU 0404 USB.  It's can be can be used via USB, operated as a standalone DAC, has brilliant measurements (measures better than many devices that are much more expensive), and can pretty much handle any bitrate/sample rate you throw at it.  At $200 it's a steal!

It's quite easy to blow a pointless amount of money at the simple task of a DAC so I recommend stuff from the pro-audio world if you are willing to hide the device.

Quote
The WD TV Live Plus does native flac, mp3, and numerous audio AND video formats (including HD output).


Reports state it can only playplack 16bit/44.1khz files.  Can it playback higher bit/sample rates?

Buy a DAC: one more try?

Reply #12 –
A brief search indicated that it will downsample files over 44.1kHz to 44.1kHz:
http://wdc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wdc.cfg/ph...ated=1274976628

Does anyone know if the process is not transparent based on controlled double-blind tests?
 

Buy a DAC: one more try?

Reply #13 –
Quote from: odigg on
If you are prepared to have something that's somewhat ugly (hide it somewhere!) I'd highly recommend the EMU 0404 USB.  It's can be can be used via USB, operated as a standalone DAC, has brilliant measurements (measures better than many devices that are much more expensive), and can pretty much handle any bitrate/sample rate you throw at it.  At $200 it's a steal!


Or the EMU 0202 USB. I use one on a Mac, it's cheaper than the 0404 and I don't think the 0404 has any advantages over the 0202 for the OP's purposes.