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Topic: Which audio connectors and how to wire a speaker set (Read 10031 times) previous topic - next topic
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Which audio connectors and how to wire a speaker set

Hello all-

Please be nice as I'm very new at this and don't know what I'm doing!

I've had a miserable little Aiwa bookshelf system for 10 years now and thought it was time for an upgrade.  I currently have all music in FLAC on my PC and run cables out to the bookshelf system (use the onboard sound).  The noise can be crackly at times and I'm pondering a new soundcard, but I can wait on that for some time.  New speakers, however, were a must (or, at least, that's what I told my wife).

I recently got a pair of New Large Advents from craigslist (did a listening test, they sound great, look fine, etc. (and the price was nice!)).  In conjunction with the speakers, I'd like to get a new receiver/amp but am totally blown away by what to do.  The speakers have the following specs:

15 watts RMS per channel @ 8 ohms

I'm not really into DTS/quad/surround, I'll probably stick with stereo for a long time and this won't be integrated into a home theater system (just a stand-alone set in a spare room).  Although I could go with a newer receiver (e.g. Onkyo) with optical in, mega-power, etc., there is something alluring about a 1970's receiver (link given as an example) with aluminum knobs and "bulb" display.  Yes, I realize that work might need to be done on the receiver to get it in tip-top shape, but let's assume that it's already been done.  I like the "look" of the old receivers over modern ones, but will a typical (pioneer, marantz, technics, etc.) perform as well?  Given that the lower specs of the speakers are 15W, I don't think that power will be much of a problem.  As for the receiver and the speakers, I need a little help with connections.  (perhaps) some easy questions to answer:

1) with the advents, they have two posts labeled 0 and 8 ohms, wold I treat these as the negative (black) and positive (red) like in the receiver, for wiring?



2) For an old (or maybe even new) receiver, what type of connector would I need to use for the following:



Now, for the subjective questions:

1) Given the choice, would you choose an older receiver (without digital/optical, dts decoding, etc.) or go with a newer model (in case I would ever want to upgrade)?

2) Given old and new, if the power ratings were equal, is there any reason to believe that a newer component should work better than an older component?

2) How much power (what rating) would you recommend to power these speakers?  Is there a point of overkill/damage?

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to read this and (hopefully) responding.


[EDIT] Could a mod change "Qhich" to "Which" in the topic title (and/or tell me how to edit it (I can't figure it out).  Feel free to delete this line then.  Thanks

Which audio connectors and how to wire a speaker set

Reply #1 –
According to this schematic your assumption that 0 is negative and 8 is positive is probably right.

It also somewhat explains what the switch in the middle is. It seems some sort of tweeter exciter (or filter...)

About the amplifier you post, it is a common amplifier, with common connectors. For the speaker out, you just need a wire, no connector is needed. Usually, what is done is put soldering on the end of the cable so that the contact is better (or at least easier to put inside).

Abotu the connectors for the signals, those are the typical RCA connectors. You can buy those almost everywhere, probably even in a supermarket.

Which audio connectors and how to wire a speaker set

Reply #2 –
Quote from: [JAZ] on

Usually, what is done is put soldering on the end of the cable so that the contact is better (or at least easier to put inside).


Don't do this! For electricians in my country this is even strictly forbidden. Under pressure solder behaves like ice and becomes fluid. Then oxygen can enter the contact area and lead to nonlinear resistance causing distortion.

Which audio connectors and how to wire a speaker set

Reply #3 –
I have never experienced this much pressure with wire terminals. I could make the solder deform only with some pliers.

EDIT: I believe the reason for not using the solder in some wire terminals is that if there is bad connections, the temperature may rise high and make the solder fluid, thus enabling the solder to flow to locations where it should not be, or the solder can cause a cold joint if not heated sufficiently when applying.

That's what they told us during the employee training in the power plant where I was working as a serviceman...

EDIT2: I was thinking of high voltage electric lines we had in the power plant, not an amplifier or speakers.
Hevay is The Way!

Which audio connectors and how to wire a speaker set

Reply #4 –
Quote from: wa11u on
I have never experienced this much pressure with wire terminals.


It happens slowly over time. For example, after one year you should be able to see it. Once very firm and tightly screwed connections won't be totally loose, but already show some weakness. Try a ferrule side by side at the same speaker terminal and it will still be sitting firm and tight as on the first day.

Which audio connectors and how to wire a speaker set

Reply #5 –
yes, but you can see the marks after a year in bare copper too, I have studied the microscale metallurgia at the university  Solder being a mixture and softer metal, it is that if the terminal is tightened to a moment, it will "eat" it's space in to the wire material and become loosened after time. No matter what. With some metals this takes more time and force, but eventually even the smaller force will do the same even with bare copper.

Edit: TYPOS!
Hevay is The Way!

Which audio connectors and how to wire a speaker set

Reply #6 –
While copper shows comparable physical properties the timescales are vastly different. Copper cable endings in screw terminals can work for decades without trouble. Tin or common soldering alloys would have failed a dozen times during the same time-span. Additionally copper oxides don't share the terrible properties with respect to electrical resistance as tin oxides.

Which audio connectors and how to wire a speaker set

Reply #7 –
Nicely done on the New Large Advents, the classic advent speakers were excellent (although the og. large advents could have you jumping for the bass knob with baritone male voices esp. on AM radio). As long as the driver surrounds are intact, you're in business! Since Kloss sold so many of the classic acoustic suspension wood boxes, surround replacements are easy to find if those wear out.

Pairing those speakers with a retro receiver isn't a bad idea in the slightest, provided you can get a good deal. Older receivers tended to rate their power output more conservatively, could put out high current levels and generally handled low impedance loads well. As a side note, they often had surprisingly good FM reception and sensitive integrated ferrite rod AM antennas that can outclass current receivers with the included wire loop antenna. 70's Pioneer, Sansui and Scott receivers tended to be of good quality and will cost less than prestige brands like McIntosh. Forget about a real warranty though. As you noted, the Advents are rated to 15W RMS at an easy-breezy 8ohms, so most any amp should have no trouble driving them. Don't worry about overpowering the speakers with a "950,000 bagillion watt RMS" amp, unless you're extremely deaf and cannot replace the speaker fuses. Generally speaking, amplifier clipping from an Underpowered amplifier turned way up is more of a danger to speakers than an amp "more powerful" than the speakers. I believe all the advent speakers had fuses as well, although you may not be able to find the precise original part if you blow the fuses (replacement modern fuses should be readily available).

Those speakers are likely a pretty good candidate for the sonic impact digital amps actually, although I'd probably go for a high quality vintage or modern amp for versatility purposes.

The RCA connectors on the back of the example picture are carrying the stereo signal on two wires (usually terminating in red and white plugs). Assuming you were using a 1/8" (small headphone jack size, called a "stereo miniplug") cable to patch between your sound card and the Aiwa, you will need an adapter to convert the single small plug into two RCA plugs.

A quick search of amazon came up with this cable, which does what you'll need. Just connect the red plug to the "R" plug on your example picture, and the white to the "L" plug, with the other end plugged into your sound card. Bare copper wire from the speaker to the receiver is generally just fine, connectors look cleaner and are invaluable if you often unplug your speakers, but otherwise unnecessary. There is no reason (other than the placebo effect) to buy expensive speaker cables - 16 gauge oxygen free copper from any hardware store or radio shack is perfect for reasonable distance runs.

As for your computer-side sound output, you might investigate updating your on board audio driver. If you know who manufactured the onboard audio chip (Realtek, Via, ADI - should be listed on the motherboard manufacturers website) you could try to forgo the motherboard manufacturers audio driver and download the most recent version directly (realtek.com.tw, viaarena.com). The motherboard-level implementation of onboard audio can be pretty poor, and for simple analog out entry-level sound cards can be an improvement.

edited syntax, indent

Which audio connectors and how to wire a speaker set

Reply #8 –
Quote from: wa11u on
I have never experienced this much pressure with wire terminals. I could make the solder deform only with some pliers.


The solder deformation required to lossen a screw connection become loose is actually pretty microscopic.

I've definately seen the problem with solder-tinned wire  mainfest itself.

Commercial tinned wire has a very thin layer of tin, and so there is no problem with it loosening.

Which audio connectors and how to wire a speaker set

Reply #9 –
Thanks Audible! and [JAZ] for the invaluable info and all the others for reading and posting.

Dumb question, but if the 0-8 terminals are actually +- and I wire the opposite way, could I do any harm or, put another way, what would happen (could I fry anything?).  Quick question about the speaker fuses, how would I know if one was blown (would the speaker just not work?).  Again, sorry for the really dumb questions.

Oh, and Audible!, I picked up some Howard's Orange Oil and gave the speakers a good rub-down and boy are they nice looking.  Even though someone used them for coasters, the walnut veneer cleaned up very well.

Which audio connectors and how to wire a speaker set

Reply #10 –
Quote from: dodog on
... Now, for the subjective questions:

1) Given the choice, would you choose an older receiver (without digital/optical, dts decoding, etc.) or go with a newer model (in case I would ever want to upgrade)?

2) Given old and new, if the power ratings were equal, is there any reason to believe that a newer component should work better than an older component?

2) How much power (what rating) would you recommend to power these speakers?  Is there a point of overkill/damage?


Objective answers for your subjective questions:

1) The new one.

2) The new one have a tendence to have a longer "life." Go with the new one.

3) The power they are designed to handle. If you supply more power it will damage them.

Which audio connectors and how to wire a speaker set

Reply #11 –
Quote from: rpp3po on
While copper shows comparable physical properties the timescales are vastly different.


I probably forgot to mention that in my post. Yes, the timescale is different. Nevertheless I have seen connections with solder which has lasted for more than decade and still going and I have seen connections with out solder which has become loose after few years without solder. Explain this, please. Only reason for this I can come up with is that the unsoldered connections had more pure copper and corroded faster- but then again I cannot be sure, I didn't make them. As for my own soldered wire -connections, some of them has lasted for over 8 years without showing any signs of getting loosened under pressure and still be used in similar application as OP's original question. And with this connection, I couldn't get the unsoldered wire to stay in the terminal when tightening, it always popped out after few minutes.

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger link=msg=0 date=
The solder deformation required to lossen a screw connection become loose is actually pretty microscopic.


If the pressure applied is enough to make the solder fluid, then plastic deformation will happen. it's not microscopic anymore. it happens in macroscale, but you are correct. If the terminal is tightened to a point where this major plastic deformation does not take place, i.e. the screw does not eat it's space into the solder, then there is combined elastic and plastic deformation. plastic deformation happens only in places whre the perssure is sufficient, leading to partly loose connection and after time more loose connection.

The solder becoming fluid is not a large scale function under pressure in terminals. Sure It happens, but I would not be concerned if the speakers are not in a heavy motion all the time, the terminals will have enough contact. My measurements have implied that corroded copper has only little less resistance than oxidated solder, and this measurement was made from my car's broken wires which had been repaired by the earlier owner (DIY-guy). Maybe the amount of resistance in oxidated solder varies with the metals used in the solder.

And then again, if I need to be 100 % sure there's no loose copper strains, I add only a little solder, maybe the small amount is the reason I have never experienced the solder deformation in wire terminals.
Hevay is The Way!

Which audio connectors and how to wire a speaker set

Reply #12 –
To the OP:

Don't get sidetracked by the discussion about which kind of copper works best or whether or not to tin the ends. ANY wire of sufficient gauge will work just fine, and if the connector requires you to screw down on the wire then it is possible that some time in the future you might need to tighten things a bit. If the connector is some kind of spring clip then you shouldn't need to worry about it lososening at all.

Which audio connectors and how to wire a speaker set

Reply #13 –
Quote from: pdq on
To the OP:

Don't get sidetracked by the discussion about which kind of copper works best or whether or not to tin the ends. ANY wire of sufficient gauge will work just fine, and if the connector requires you to screw down on the wire then it is possible that some time in the future you might need to tighten things a bit. If the connector is some kind of spring clip then you shouldn't need to worry about it lososening at all.


Thanks for the input.  I don't even have a soldering iron so that's not really an option.  I had a gift card to Best Buy (thanks Visa "rewards"), so I bought the Best Buy brand (PNY?) 100' spool, which was less than half the cost of only 50' of monster cable (both 16-guage).  I couldn't tell what the difference was other than the Monster had a thicker insulating layer on the outside and (maybe) a fancier "twist" to the copper.  With 100', I can always cut and re-cut and try different layouts in different rooms for fun, and still have cable leftover. 

Sorry to post again, but can anyone tell me what, if anything, would happen if I miswired the pos. and neg. posts on the speaker (opposite of what the receiver has)?

Which audio connectors and how to wire a speaker set

Reply #14 –
Forgot to answer that question - If you wire both speakers the same way then you will be fine. There have been reports that very careful listening to specific sound clips can hear the difference between normal and inverted wiring of the speakers, but there is no practical significance to this.

BTW the technical meaning of the polarity is that when you apply a positive voltage to the plus terminal of the speaker its cone will move forward, toward the listener. If you combine multiple speakers of different types or different manufacturers then always connect all of the pluses together and all of the minuses together.

Which audio connectors and how to wire a speaker set

Reply #15 –
The cheapo, safe and fast way to know if positive is positive:

Take a common 1.5volt battery, wire it to the speaker. 
If the cone goes out , the positive and negative are correct.
If the cone goes in, you've wired them inverted.

Also, like pdq said, if both are wired the same way, there isn't much of a difference in itself, but it's always preffered to wire them right.

Which audio connectors and how to wire a speaker set

Reply #16 –
and you'll notice if the speakers are out phase with each other
Hevay is The Way!

Which audio connectors and how to wire a speaker set

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Audible! on
Nicely done on the New Large Advents, the classic advent speakers were excellent (although the og. large advents could have you jumping for the bass knob with baritone male voices esp. on AM radio). As long as the driver surrounds are intact, you're in business! Since Kloss sold so many of the classic acoustic suspension wood boxes, surround replacements are easy to find if those wear out.

Pairing those speakers with a retro receiver isn't a bad idea in the slightest, provided you can get a good deal. Older receivers tended to rate their power output more conservatively, could put out high current levels and generally handled low impedance loads well. As a side note, they often had surprisingly good FM reception and sensitive integrated ferrite rod AM antennas that can outclass current receivers with the included wire loop antenna. 70's Pioneer, Sansui and Scott receivers tended to be of good quality and will cost less than prestige brands like McIntosh. Forget about a real warranty though. As you noted, the Advents are rated to 15W RMS at an easy-breezy 8ohms, so most any amp should have no trouble driving them. Don't worry about overpowering the speakers with a "950,000 bagillion watt RMS" amp, unless you're extremely deaf and cannot replace the speaker fuses. Generally speaking, amplifier clipping from an Underpowered amplifier turned way up is more of a danger to speakers than an amp "more powerful" than the speakers. I believe all the advent speakers had fuses as well, although you may not be able to find the precise original part if you blow the fuses (replacement modern fuses should be readily available).

Those speakers are likely a pretty good candidate for the sonic impact digital amps actually, although I'd probably go for a high quality vintage or modern amp for versatility purposes.

The RCA connectors on the back of the example picture are carrying the stereo signal on two wires (usually terminating in red and white plugs). Assuming you were using a 1/8" (small headphone jack size, called a "stereo miniplug") cable to patch between your sound card and the Aiwa, you will need an adapter to convert the single small plug into two RCA plugs.

A quick search of amazon came up with this cable, which does what you'll need. Just connect the red plug to the "R" plug on your example picture, and the white to the "L" plug, with the other end plugged into your sound card. Bare copper wire from the speaker to the receiver is generally just fine, connectors look cleaner and are invaluable if you often unplug your speakers, but otherwise unnecessary. There is no reason (other than the placebo effect) to buy expensive speaker cables - 16 gauge oxygen free copper from any hardware store or radio shack is perfect for reasonable distance runs.

As for your computer-side sound output, you might investigate updating your on board audio driver. If you know who manufactured the onboard audio chip (Realtek, Via, ADI - should be listed on the motherboard manufacturers website) you could try to forgo the motherboard manufacturers audio driver and download the most recent version directly (realtek.com.tw, viaarena.com). The motherboard-level implementation of onboard audio can be pretty poor, and for simple analog out entry-level sound cards can be an improvement.

edited syntax, indent


Advent power recommendations were suggested minimum Watts, not the maximum. I used to sell them back in the '70s and beat the crap out of more than my share. 75 Watts/channel is a nice power level that will cause only a little problem with the speakers (take it easy during parties) and some problems with landlords. If you think one pair is pretty good, try 2 pairs in parallel and get yourself 200+ watts/channel and some good classical recordings.

To deal with the mid bass hump, put them on stands 10-12 inches off the floor and _not_ in a corner. They were intended as bookshelf units after all.

Re-foaming drivers should take a total of 24 hours (glue needs to dry) but the actual time working is less than 1 hour / driver and cost about $10 per woofer. So far I've done 6 with no problems.

For speaker wires I solder spade lugs onto the wires for the speaker ends. My amp (Adcom GFA-555) uses dual bananas so that connector is on my cables. For your amp just cut, strip, twist the strands and insert into the connector bare. I've seen folks strip the wires back far enough to potentially cause shorts (used to repair consumer audio) and damage their amps. Only strip 1/2" or less of the insulation while separating the 2 conductors maybe 2-3 inches.

I run another pair of Advents on a vintage Technics receiver (eBay, $15 10 years ago) which turned out to be in the 70 Watt range. It's a nice little system for the computer. I have a 4th pair at work.

G²

Which audio connectors and how to wire a speaker set

Reply #18 –
I'm soldering-impaired.  Is something like  this acceptable? Other than the price ($20???), is a self-crimping connector worth it or would I be better off just using bare wire on both the speaker terminals and the receiver?  If connectors are recommended, can anyone recommend a cheaper solution?

Which audio connectors and how to wire a speaker set

Reply #19 –
Quote from: dodog on
I'm soldering-impaired.  Is something like  this acceptable? Other than the price ($20???), is a self-crimping connector worth it or would I be better off just using bare wire on both the speaker terminals and the receiver?  If connectors are recommended, can anyone recommend a cheaper solution?


They would work but at $40 for 2 sets seems pretty wasteful to me. Just twist the wires and wrap them around the studs and tighten the thumbscrews. It's what the original intent was when they were built. The studs are very far apart to prevent 'accidents' with the wires. It will work fine and you can use the $40 for something more useful.

G²

Which audio connectors and how to wire a speaker set

Reply #20 –
Go to Radio Shack. Buy a pack of 10 crimp-on spade lugs of the appropriate size for $2. Buy a $8 crimping tool, or if you are careful then a pair of pliers will work. Done.

Which audio connectors and how to wire a speaker set

Reply #21 –
Quote from: pdq on
Go to Radio Shack. Buy a pack of 10 crimp-on spade lugs of the appropriate size for $2. Buy a $8 crimping tool, or if you are careful then a pair of pliers will work. Done.

Most autopart stores have the identical items when it comes to crimp connections and crimpers.  While I can't comment on the price (I would ASSume less than Radio Shack), you might find it easier to sleep at night. 
Creature of habit.
 

Which audio connectors and how to wire a speaker set

Reply #22 –
Sorry to dig up an old thread but I wanted to give an update (and much thanks to everyone who helped me out on this):

1) If anyone cares to know, for the advents 0 Ohm is neg. and 8 Ohm is positive (on the binding posts).  The trick with the battery worked!  (I have to admit it was neat seeing the woofer go in and out by reversing polarity).
2) I did buy a set of spade lugs at Radioshack and had to purchase a wire-cutter/crimper combo to get them on (regular pliers were too big).  It's something I'll use again so the $7 was worth it.
3) I purchases an old Pioneer SX-590, rated at 80 Watts (has been cleaned up, caps replaced, etc.), for <$100 and it pairs VERY nicely with the Advents.  I took someone's advice from AuioKarma and, after cleaning the aluminum knobs and faceplate, I applied a small amount of turtle wax (it's ultra-shiny now).  Not only does the receiver sound good, but it looks great! Also, as someone pointed out, the radio reception for FM and AM is very nice as well (now I can listen to NPR in style).

I have all this connectedt to my PC, with Foobar, and the house is rocking!

Thanks again to everyone for all your advice.  Everyone at HA has been friendly, helpful, and made my virgin foray into hi-fi a very nice experience.