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Topic: Update at LoudnessRace.net (Read 11895 times) previous topic - next topic
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Update at LoudnessRace.net

Reply #25 –
Quote
I'd like to add one bit of good news. I own two CD releases of Yes's "Relayer", the first one being released somewhere around 10-15 years ago and the second one being a remaster on Rhino IIRC, and there was no change in loudness. In fact, all three tracks have even lower RG values than before!

Quote
Name  Original release   New release
The Gates of Delirium   -7.52   -7.41
Sound Chaser   -8.24   -7.92
To Be Over  -8.05   -7.64

[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=262943"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


If for some reason you want to hear the remaster that *is* a casualty of the loudness wars, get hold of the Japanese HDCD version (with the lovingly reproduced mini-album sleeve)  released a few years back.

Update at LoudnessRace.net

Reply #26 –
Now that's irony.

Update at LoudnessRace.net

Reply #27 –
Yes, Rhino tend to make really good sounding remasters.

The Emerson Lake and Palmer Brain Salad Surgery CD remaster sounds excellent, and they've just remastered it again and re-released it as a DVD-A...I have an SACD/CD only player though

Update at LoudnessRace.net

Reply #28 –
Quote
Yes, Rhino tend to make really good sounding remasters.

The Emerson Lake and Palmer Brain Salad Surgery CD remaster sounds excellent, and they've just remastered it again and re-released it as a DVD-A...I have an SACD/CD only player though
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=263105"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have that BSS version, actually. It does sound very good, although I don't have any other versions to really compare against. I have a DVD-A player too... hmmmm.

Update at LoudnessRace.net

Reply #29 –
Quote
I'd like to add one bit of good news. I own two CD releases of Yes's "Relayer", the first one being released somewhere around 10-15 years ago and the second one being a remaster on Rhino IIRC, and there was no change in loudness. In fact, all three tracks have even lower RG values than before!

Quote
Name  Original release   New release
The Gates of Delirium   -7.52   -7.41
Sound Chaser   -8.24   -7.92
To Be Over  -8.05   -7.64

[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=262943"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hmmm... interesting. But, I prefer the original releases of 80's and 70's; because have many more dynamic range, as consequence the music for my ears is more pleasant and good taste. In my personal collection I have many CD's of 70's and 80's ("YES - Relayer" was produced in 1974; I don't have this CD).

In one occasion I made a experiment:
I ripped 15 album's of 80's (original releases; jazz, heavy metal, and pop). I normalize all the tracks to 100% (aprox. 150 songs !!!); and after analized with WAVEGAIN. The maximum RG track value that I can see was -5 (incredible not???) and was a track of heavy metal music !! Other types of music (jazz and pop) had less RG track values (max. aprox.: -3.5).

This albums I hear many times without ear fatigue... but... many new albums (98's and more recent).. Oh God !! ... I heared 4 songs and turn the music off !!

P.D.: sorry my bad english...

Update at LoudnessRace.net

Reply #30 –
Quote
Quote
Yes, Rhino tend to make really good sounding remasters.

The Emerson Lake and Palmer Brain Salad Surgery CD remaster sounds excellent, and they've just remastered it again and re-released it as a DVD-A...I have an SACD/CD only player though
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=263105"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have that BSS version, actually. It does sound very good, although I don't have any other versions to really compare against. I have a DVD-A player too... hmmmm.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=263117"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I've compared it to some japanese pressing that my dad has that was released around the time the CD format was just coming around.

It sounds like mud compared to the remaster

Update at LoudnessRace.net

Reply #31 –
Quote
Quote
Quote
Yes, Rhino tend to make really good sounding remasters.

The Emerson Lake and Palmer Brain Salad Surgery CD remaster sounds excellent, and they've just remastered it again and re-released it as a DVD-A...I have an SACD/CD only player though
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=263105"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have that BSS version, actually. It does sound very good, although I don't have any other versions to really compare against. I have a DVD-A player too... hmmmm.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=263117"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I've compared it to some japanese pressing that my dad has that was released around the time the CD format was just coming around.

It sounds like mud compared to the remaster
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=263237"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The original master tapes weren't used as sources for that CD until its first remastering in the States...on the Victory label , I think, circa 1990.

The DVD-A version is a complete *remix* as well as a remaster, and there's no dedicated two-channel track (just a downmix from the 5-1 channel mix).

Update at LoudnessRace.net

Reply #32 –
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Now, where's your site gone, mate?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=262221"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


[Paranoia]RIAA have forced him to take it down[/Paranoia]
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=262222"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No the domain registration expired because I compltely forgot about it.

Update at LoudnessRace.net

Reply #33 –
Quote
I'd like to add one bit of good news. I own two CD releases of Yes's "Relayer", the first one being released somewhere around 10-15 years ago and the second one being a remaster on Rhino IIRC, and there was no change in loudness. In fact, all three tracks have even lower RG values than before!

Quote
Name  Original release   New release
The Gates of Delirium   -7.52   -7.41
Sound Chaser   -8.24   -7.92
To Be Over  -8.05   -7.64

[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=262943"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Replaygain is only valid for measuring the loudness if all tracks have been normalized to the same level; I'd say we should always use 0dB. Then it tells the peak-to-average difference. Have you done that ?
I know that I know nothing. But how can I then know that ?

Update at LoudnessRace.net

Reply #34 –
Quote
No the domain registration expired because I compltely forgot about it.


Any chance of getting it back online some time soon? Maybe on a different domain?
sic transit gloria mundi...

Update at LoudnessRace.net

Reply #35 –
Quote
Quote
I'd like to add one bit of good news. I own two CD releases of Yes's "Relayer", the first one being released somewhere around 10-15 years ago and the second one being a remaster on Rhino IIRC, and there was no change in loudness. In fact, all three tracks have even lower RG values than before!

Quote
Name  Original release   New release
The Gates of Delirium   -7.52   -7.41
Sound Chaser   -8.24   -7.92
To Be Over  -8.05   -7.64

[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Replaygain is only valid for measuring the loudness if all tracks have been normalized to the same level; I'd say we should always use 0dB. Then it tells the peak-to-average difference. Have you done that ?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=264228"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I have 

For 'Sound Chaser', in order of release, here are the left and right channel peak amplitude-to-average RMS Power differences in dB, and the (average of L +R), after track normalization to 0 dB, using Audition:

Code: [Select]
first CD release:       15.8*    16.96   (16.38)
Yesyears boxed set:     16.92    16.4  (16.66)
First remastered CD:    14.73    15.93  (15.33)
Japanese HDCD:          12.53    11.58  (12.05)
Latest remaster:        15.35    15.34  (15.35)
 

Interestingly, the only version that doesn't show *any* visual evidence of flat-topping (clipped peaks) is the first one. 

I'm curious to know, how does 'old fashioned' clipping/limiting (analog) show up in a wavform visualization?  Does it show up as flattops below 0 dB FS?  Because that's what I see in 4 out of the five visualizations.  Or does this come about from
digitally clipped mastering that has then been backed off a little bit from FS?

*for this one, I could not get the file to normalize to 0 dB; the normalized peak would be in the left channel which would go to -0.05 dB but no higher.  Don't know why.

You can view the raw data and the wavform screen captures [a href="http://www.m-ideas.com/sullivan/sc/Sound_Chaser.htm]here[/url].
 

Update at LoudnessRace.net

Reply #36 –
Quote
Interestingly, the only version that doesn't show *any* visual evidence of flat-topping (clipped peaks) is the first one. 

I'm curious to know, how does 'old fashioned' clipping/limiting (analog) show up in a wavform visualization?  Does it show up as flattops below 0 dB FS?  Because that's what I see in 4 out of the five visualizations.
It should look like the first one of your screenshots (This one also doesn't look like "natural" dynamics.) Analog clipping doesn't look like the flattops of digital clipping, it's way more 'diffuse' or 'chaotic' and much more difficult to detect. The sound is surprisingly similar to digital clipping, but less harsh.
Quote
Or does this come about from digitally clipped mastering that has then been backed off a little bit from FS?
Most likely: yes. On many modern clipressed CDs the clipression isn't obvious (perfect flattops for clipping).
I know that I know nothing. But how can I then know that ?