Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

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Re: Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

Reply #50 – 2019-08-20 12:34:28

Apple AAC (Q 100) - Very easy (after figuring out which part of the sound goes missing after encoding, it's easy to pick it up)

Code: [Select]

foo_abx 2.0.6c report
foobar2000 v1.4.6
2019-08-20 14:17:54

File A: Fighter_Beat_Loop.flac
SHA1: 796f85a948de5135e0393930694ee0fb4c487b00
Gain adjustment: -6.18 dB
File B: Fighter_Beat_Loop aac apple q100.m4a
SHA1: af6b98b25e262f1661f971ba2a6e53a0f018bcee
Gain adjustment: -6.15 dB

Output:
WASAPI (shared) : Out: default
Crossfading: NO

14:17:54 : Test started.
14:28:49 : 01/01
14:29:15 : 02/02
14:29:30 : 03/03
14:29:49 : 04/04
14:30:02 : 05/05
14:30:14 : 06/06
14:30:26 : 07/07
14:30:40 : 08/08
14:30:48 : 09/09
14:30:56 : 10/10
14:31:04 : 11/11
14:31:13 : 12/12
14:31:23 : 13/13
14:31:36 : 14/14
14:31:49 : 15/15
14:32:01 : 16/16
14:32:01 : Test finished.

 ---------- 
Total: 16/16
p-value: 0 (0%)

 -- signature -- 
846bd78466866f867eef7a7fa90b812eeced24d1

Re: Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

Reply #51 – 2019-08-20 12:36:02

Also found that (at least for Apple AAC) the difference is easiest to hear not at the very big loudness, but something closer to medium.
If made louder, it begins to overwhelm ears somehow and I get lost.

Re: Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

Reply #52 – 2019-08-20 12:47:57

Actually MPC Q7 is just as easy, after focusing on the same sound, training indeed does a lot

Code: [Select]

foo_abx 2.0.6c report
foobar2000 v1.4.6
2019-08-20 14:41:53

File A: Fighter_Beat_Loop.flac
SHA1: 796f85a948de5135e0393930694ee0fb4c487b00
Gain adjustment: -6.18 dB
File B: Fighter_Beat_Loop mpc q7.mpc
SHA1: d648e0a463cb6817af7c7dafedf13f605c6a4e30
Gain adjustment: -6.17 dB

Output:
WASAPI (shared) : Out: default
Crossfading: NO

14:41:53 : Test started.
14:43:07 : 01/01
14:43:19 : 02/02
14:43:30 : 03/03
14:43:40 : 04/04
14:43:56 : 05/05
14:44:08 : 06/06
14:44:19 : 07/07
14:44:33 : 08/08
14:44:57 : 09/09
14:45:11 : 10/10
14:45:42 : 11/11
14:45:55 : 12/12
14:46:01 : 13/13
14:46:15 : 14/14
14:46:26 : 15/15
14:46:38 : 16/16
14:46:38 : Test finished.

 ---------- 
Total: 16/16
p-value: 0 (0%)

 -- signature -- 
c1ff9bceefcc8582bd7f8a3ead06bb9c2d2895f4

(file same as before when I did 15/16 and with a lot of tryharding)

Re: Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

Reply #53 – 2019-08-20 12:54:35

Try MPC Q7 or Q7.5 with --ms 15 switch

Re: Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

Reply #54 – 2019-08-20 12:55:19

That's what I'm trying right now. Trying to recall the shape of that sound, I always forget it and need to find it again.
But I already see that the --ms switch alone changes the file size by only ~200 bytes. (It doesn't decode identically to the plain Q7 file).
I'm trying Q7.5 --ms 15, if I can't, will try the same for Q7

Re: Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

Reply #55 – 2019-08-20 13:05:57

after recalling what to focus on, Q7.5 with that extra switch is just about as easy as Q7

Code: [Select]

foo_abx 2.0.6c report
foobar2000 v1.4.6
2019-08-20 15:00:33

File A: Fighter_Beat_Loop.flac
SHA1: 796f85a948de5135e0393930694ee0fb4c487b00
Gain adjustment: -6.18 dB
File B: Fighter_Beat_Loop mpc q7.5 ms 15.mpc
SHA1: ce2a7cb1d2315e60978696769c79a57db98c1fac
Gain adjustment: -6.18 dB

Output:
WASAPI (shared) : Out: default
Crossfading: NO

15:00:33 : Test started.
15:01:21 : 01/01
15:01:33 : 02/02
15:01:43 : 03/03
15:01:53 : 04/04
15:02:05 : 05/05
15:02:16 : 06/06
15:02:27 : 07/07
15:02:41 : 08/08
15:02:55 : 09/09
15:03:05 : 10/10
15:03:17 : 11/11
15:03:32 : 12/12
15:03:49 : 13/13
15:04:09 : 14/14
15:04:26 : 15/15
15:04:36 : 16/16
15:04:36 : Test finished.

 ---------- 
Total: 16/16
p-value: 0 (0%)

 -- signature -- 
6c5f6e32dce5417d82199bba50d2fa57905c19c3

Re: Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

Reply #56 – 2019-08-20 13:25:27

Are you willing to try wavpack lossy using -b350hx4 ?

Re: Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

Reply #57 – 2019-08-20 15:05:08

Quote from: Shinichi on 2019-08-20 13:25:27

Are you willing to try wavpack lossy using -b350hx4 ?

Maybe later.
--
Decided to try mp2 at max bitrate (twolame -b 384), it's also easy to ABX.

Code: [Select]

foo_abx 2.0.6c report
foobar2000 v1.4.6
2019-08-20 16:56:57

File A: Fighter_Beat_Loop.flac
SHA1: 796f85a948de5135e0393930694ee0fb4c487b00
Gain adjustment: -6.18 dB
File B: Fighter_Beat_Loop.mp2
SHA1: ae9d51c69bfb79c0ff862e924336486ff236f0da
Gain adjustment: -6.17 dB

Output:
WASAPI (shared) : Out: default
Crossfading: NO

16:56:57 : Test started.
16:59:53 : 01/01
17:00:04 : 02/02
17:00:20 : 03/03
17:00:31 : 04/04
17:00:42 : 05/05
17:00:51 : 06/06
17:01:04 : 07/07
17:01:31 : 08/08
17:01:49 : 09/09
17:01:58 : 10/10
17:02:08 : 11/11
17:02:24 : 12/12
17:02:35 : 13/13
17:02:50 : 14/14
17:03:14 : 15/15
17:03:32 : 16/16
17:03:32 : Test finished.

 ---------- 
Total: 16/16
p-value: 0 (0%)

 -- signature -- 
3a5fe1fa18a07a9f4678a46dca66ed1dd40bbc12

Re: Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

Reply #58 – 2019-08-20 15:11:02

Quote from: Shinichi on 2019-08-20 13:25:27

Are you willing to try wavpack lossy using -b350hx4 ?

Can't hear difference, but it ends up using 476kbps for this sample with these settings.

Re: Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

Reply #59 – 2019-08-20 15:20:39

MPC Q10 still ABX-able

Code: [Select]

foo_abx 2.0.6c report
foobar2000 v1.4.6
2019-08-20 17:12:37

File A: Fighter_Beat_Loop.flac
SHA1: 796f85a948de5135e0393930694ee0fb4c487b00
Gain adjustment: -6.18 dB
File B: Fighter_Beat_Loop mpc q10.mpc
SHA1: 5e32c8d414d9dc472ff9bbb3ac2185cb6c17c774
Gain adjustment: -6.18 dB

Output:
WASAPI (shared) : Out: default
Crossfading: NO

17:12:37 : Test started.
17:13:42 : 01/01
17:13:53 : 02/02
17:14:33 : 03/03
17:14:42 : 04/04
17:14:52 : 05/05
17:15:17 : 06/06
17:15:24 : 07/07
17:15:46 : 08/08
17:16:04 : 09/09
17:16:24 : 10/10
17:16:38 : 11/11
17:17:05 : 12/12
17:17:33 : 13/13
17:18:04 : 14/14
17:18:28 : 15/15
17:18:44 : 16/16
17:18:44 : Test finished.

 ---------- 
Total: 16/16
p-value: 0 (0%)

 -- signature -- 
5e1d03d432660fa52380c071b99b44d62eaca318

Wondering if there are any possible "expert" settings to push past this level to really force it to keep that sound

Re: Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

Reply #60 – 2019-08-20 15:57:08

You can try tweaking --nmt --tmn. nmt inflates bitrate more compared with tmn. You can see default values for each profile with --verbose

e.g:

--nmt 20 --tmn 40
mppenc --xtreme or --insane --nmt 20 --tmn 40
mppenc --quality 10 --nmt 20 --tmn 40

Re: Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

Reply #61 – 2019-08-20 17:49:50

Quote from: magicgoose on 2019-08-20 15:11:02

Quote from: Shinichi on 2019-08-20 13:25:27
Are you willing to try wavpack lossy using -b350hx4 ?
Can't hear difference, but it ends up using 476kbps for this sample with these settings.

Thanks a lot. LossyWav/Flac standard ends up at 907k so this wavpack setting is much better.

Re: Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

Reply #62 – 2019-08-23 12:36:19

Good news: these parameters for musepack are actually letting it scale all the way up to very small differences that have to be inaudible. (and it can take up to 931 bitrate if I put a ridiculously high value of 60dB into both)
Now I need to find the optimal setting which removes the artifact yet doesn't inflate the bitrate too much.
I am guessing that I have to focus on `--nmt`, but not 100% sure yet.

Also interesting if Opus has any similar fine tuning options?

Re: Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

Reply #63 – 2019-08-23 13:07:54

Not sure just yet, might have to try again later, but I can't hear difference with MPC --quality 5 --nmt 18.
It gives bitrate 321kbps on this sample, not too bad yet. But maybe it is still overkill.

Perhaps it could have been even better if NMT could be tuned per band, it doesn't make sense to raise it for anything above 16kHz for example,

Re: Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

Reply #64 – 2019-08-23 14:58:50

On "normal" music MPC "--quality 5 --nmt 18" ends up using from 190 to 296 kbps (tested on several albums picked from my collection trying to be as diverse as possible in terms of sound characteristics), so if the other choice is to use lossyflac or wavpack hybrid, this one is clearly more economic.
I probably should try to find the point when Opus becomes transparent here for a fair comparison, and also try to nail down a cheaper setting for MPC too.

Re: Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

Reply #65 – 2019-08-23 17:02:38

Very interesting testing. It would be also interesting how this MPC setting deal with other problematic samples like badvilbel, eig, castanets etc. This could be THE setting to use in general.
I also tested this setting to see bitrate on various cd albums and can confirm is 240-250k on average. Very similar in bitrate like MPC q7-8 but with nmt 18 should be better.

Re: Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

Reply #66 – 2019-08-24 11:21:23

I usually was not able to ABX MPC on any other samples that I know of, it would be interesting to let some people with better ears to test this setting on other samples.
Also: tested with NMT 17 and lower, it was ABX-able, it really only gets hard or impossible for me on NMT 18. Maybe it's somehow related to the fact that in standard preset, 18 is also the value for the other main parameter (TMN) and it should let encoder treat tonal and "noisy" content the same.
Not sure it's worth the trouble to search for a fractional value of NMT.
Would be interesting if there was some other parameter to tune the behavior of deciding what is tone and what is noise. Maybe that could make it possible to "waste" less bits on this sample to make it transparent.

Re: Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

Reply #67 – 2019-08-24 11:36:03

I would try the WV hybrid route starting around 256k. One collection. On the PC your music becomes lossless through the wvc file and theres zero degradation possible. On portables you could copy the album folder and playback should also be lossless - assuming the player supports .wvc files. If space becomes scarce you can delete or not copy wvc in the first place - the same codec / collection becomes lossy saving 3 ~ 4 times space over lossless. I use -b3hx4cl and previously -b3x4cl without issues so far on. On PC its lossless, on my Samsung J2 pro (poweramp player) I copy only the WV files. Bitrate is around 270k.

Other reason, The hybrids can be immune to certain type of problem that affects traditional codecs (though things can also go opposite direction)

Re: Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

Reply #68 – 2019-08-24 11:46:08

Quote from: magicgoose on 2019-08-24 11:21:23

I usually was not able to ABX MPC on any other samples that I know of, it would be interesting to let some people with better ears to test this setting on other samples.
Also: tested with NMT 17 and lower, it was ABX-able, it really only gets hard or impossible for me on NMT 18. Maybe it's somehow related to the fact that in standard preset, 18 is also the value for the other main parameter (TMN) and it should let encoder treat tonal and "noisy" content the same.
Not sure it's worth the trouble to search for a fractional value of NMT.
Would be interesting if there was some other parameter to tune the behavior of deciding what is tone and what is noise. Maybe that could make it possible to "waste" less bits on this sample to make it transparent.

I'd use --extreme or --quality 6 with tweaks as its more suited for that in theory anyway. Maybe nmt 17 or lower would work.

Re: Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

Reply #69 – 2019-08-26 11:58:22

Quote

I'd use --extreme or --quality 6 with tweaks as its more suited for that in theory anyway. Maybe nmt 17 or lower would work.

--quality 10 uses NMT 14 by default and that is ABX-able, so there isn't a whole lot of space between NMT 14 and 18 anyway.
I may guess that this will just end up using more bitrate, and it's not clear how that would improve anything except stuff that's already transparent.

Re: Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

Reply #70 – 2019-08-27 12:54:13

I think that using setting --quality 5 + nmt 18 should be very good in general with bitrate in 250k range (and as you said very hard or impossible to ABX using nmt18) while default --quality 10 is in 350k range and ABX-able.

Re: Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

Reply #71 – 2019-11-14 12:23:01

Hi,
Is someone willing to ABX badvilbel /eig samples with this setting (quality 5 -nmt 18)?
I'm not trained to spot artifacts and I don't have good equipment but
if this setting provides transparent, or very hard to ABX results, on critical samples,
I think this could be very interesting discovery for lossy formats in general while retaining "economical" bitrate of 240-270k on average using this setting.
Just thinking...

Re: Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

Reply #72 – 2019-11-14 13:46:05

those are mp3 samples. mpc is less affected by standard codec issue like preecho. It has some edge cases here and there.

Re: Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)

Reply #73 – 2019-11-14 14:02:30

But I've read before that badvilbel is tough on varios codecs/formats. So using mpc Q5 -nmt 18 should yield very high if not transparent quality as magicgoose and you discovered on this fighter beat sample.

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