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Topic: 16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz (Read 9049 times) previous topic - next topic
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16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

I would like to have the opinion of more knowledgeable people than me in transcodes...

Here the information for a piece of music I downloaded (flac):

Bitrate: 1'327 kbps
Spectrogram:



EDIT: I could not find a way to edit the topic header which should be 44.1kHz for 16bit and 24bit 

16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

Reply #1
A spectrogram won't tell you about bit depth.
EDIT: This will explain why it's not 22.1kHz

C.

PC = TAK + LossyWAV  ::  Portable = Opus (130)

16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

Reply #2
Thanks carpman for your reply.

Did you notice the bitrate indication? This should be directly linked with the sample rate. Correct me if I'm wrong... 

EDIT: Besides anyway it's 44'100 Hz in both (bit) cases (I made a typo in the topic header but I found no way to correct it...)

16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

Reply #3
A spectrogram is pretty useless for this task.

Even if you have the original file, unless the 16>24 conversion was carried out simply by adding 8 zeros (which you can check for*), then there's absolutely no way of knowing whether an arbitrary 24-bit file was captured directly at that bitdepth, or created from a 16-bit file by adding 8-bits of random noise. The end result will look, sound, and measure the same (assuming a source, like vinyl, where the noise is already above the 16-bit noise floor at all frequencies).

* - if the FLAC bitrate is that high (you reported 1.3Mbps), it's very unlikely that the 24-bit file has 8 zero LSBs, so you can discount that possibility

The most important fact is that, for a vinyl capture, it really doesn't matter either way.

Cheers,
David.

16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

Reply #4
[the bitrate] should be directly linked with the sample rate.
Nope.[/s]

Edit: Ironically, I missed your bitrate indication. Disregard me!

And as 2Bdecided said; since it's from vinyl, it barely matters anyway.

16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

Reply #5
So if I understand you all correctly:

1. A spectrogram is absolutely useless in this situation (e.g. trying to find out if vinyl>24bit or if vinyl>16bit>24bit has been the transcode path).

2. The (high) bitrate tells me here that very likely the transcode has been done directly from vinyl to 24bit though it can basically not be 100% sure.

3. Conclusion: There's no way to be 100% sure if the final (24bit) result  directly came from a vinyl source but given the high bitrate (1.3kbps) it's rather very likely.

4. If that is correct then what are the bitrates (range) one should expect from various transcodings like:
a. vinyl > 16 bit
b. vinyl > 24 bit
c. CDDA > 16 bit
d. SCDA > 16 bit

Thank you to you all for enlighting me. 

16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

Reply #6
2. The (high) bitrate tells me here that very likely the transcode has been done directly from vinyl to 24bit though it can basically not be 100% sure.

3. Conclusion: There's no way to be 100% sure if the final (24bit) result  directly came from a vinyl source but given the high bitrate (1.3kbps) it's rather very likely.

No and No.
The high bitrate tells you the bottom 8 bits are likely not all zeros.
Period.

Tells you nothing else.
Not the original bitdepth of the rip, doesn't even suggest vinyl.
Creature of habit.

16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

Reply #7
Not the original bitdepth of the rip, doesn't even suggest vinyl.


Can you please elaborate, I don't understand, sorry...   

So I try to formulate it again in other words... There's abosutely no way to know if a 24bit transcode which you downloaded in a flac file format really comes from a vinyl source??...   

16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

Reply #8
So I try to formulate it again in other words... There's abosutely no way to know if a 24bit transcode which you downloaded in a flac file format really comes from a vinyl source??... 

correct.
No way to be sure.
Buy the frickin album if you want to know what you have.
Creature of habit.

 

16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

Reply #9
No way to be sure.


Ok no way to be sure but could at least the bitrate (if not the spectrogram) tell something about the likeliness??...   

Thanks

16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

Reply #10
The likeliness of it being a vinyl rip?  No.
Creature of habit.

16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

Reply #11
If it's a vinyl rip, it doesn't even matter if it's encoded at 24-bit anyhow. There is no way you're getting more than the equivalent of 12 bits of signal-to-noise ratio; maybe even 8 bits with some good noise-shaping. 24-bit vinyl rips are a totally idiotic waste of space. Kick whoever made it for you in the nuts for me.

16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

Reply #12
maybe even 8 bits with some good noise-shaping.


Could you quantify this? Given the 44.1kHz sample rate, what would be the 20kHz-wide SNR of the noiseshaped channel?
And how much noise signal power would be packed in the last 2kHz band? How would the tweeter like that?

Or is it just conjecture?


16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

Reply #13
I read Arnold write it somewhere here. I don't have numbers.

16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

Reply #14
I read Arnold write it somewhere here. I don't have numbers.


Ah, I see.

I did a quick experiment with a none-too-extreme noise shaper. Broadband sub-20kHz noise is then at -44dB (RMS), considerably worse than a decent LP, and very much worse when weighting is included. Super-20kHz noise contains frequent peaks up to -26dB(FS). That is pretty loud.


16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

Reply #15
maybe even 8 bits with some good noise-shaping.



That seems like a bit of a reach.

Quote
Could you quantify this? Given the 44.1kHz sample rate, what would be the 20kHz-wide SNR of the noiseshaped channel?


You're using the wrong criteria. Noise shaping doesn't drop the overall broadband noise floor. Instead, noise shaping moves the noise to the parts of the frequency spectrum where it is less noticeable. In oversampling, noise shaping is used to move the noise to frequencies that are ultimately filtered out. In dithering, @ 44 KHz, the noise is moved to the high end of the audible spectrum where the ear is far less sensitive.

So, noise shaping can be used to produce a noise floor with 16 bit samples that approaches the perceived noise levels of unshaped samples with 20 or more bits.

Of course the irony is that the basic source material has a far higher noise floor than even unshaped 16 bits.

If this sounds fishy, its really the same reason why LPs with noise floors comparable to 12 bit digital can sound as good as they do. The LP system has long been engineered to push noise to the frequency extremes where the ear is far less sensitive. This is one of the major benefits of RIAA equalization.


Quote
And how much noise signal power would be packed in the last 2kHz band?


If you look at the Fletcher-Munson curves you see that you don't have to pack all the noise into the last 2 KHz.  The sensitivity of the ear falls off rapidly above 5 Khz or so, particularly at low amplitudes.

Quote
How would the tweeter like that?


No problem since even with noise shaping, the actual noise levels remain relatively low.

Quote
Or is it just conjecture?


Noise shaping is technology that goes back to at least FM radio (late 1930s)  and 78 rpm recordings (similar time frame). In the old days we called it "de emphasis".  The RIAA playback curve includes massive noise shaping, and the FM deemphasis curve also does so, but to a lesser degree.

16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

Reply #16
Yeah, I can't find a citation for that 8-bit figure. Let's pretend I never said it.

16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

Reply #17
Buy the frickin album if you want to know what you have.
LOL!. Yeah, but then you've got to digitise it yourself.

Seriously, 16 vs 24 bits is irrelevant in this context (and most contexts!). What does it sound like? Does it sound like pristine vinyl played on a top-notch record player? If so, be happy. If not, 24-bits won't rescue it anyway.

Cheers,
David.


16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

Reply #18
In oversampling, noise shaping is used to move the noise to frequencies that are ultimately filtered out.

Oversampling is used to help take the complexity away from the reconstruction filter.

If you use noise shaping and then filter out the noise that does the work to dither, what happens to the effect of the dither?
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

Reply #19
In oversampling, noise shaping is used to move the noise to frequencies that are ultimately filtered out.

Oversampling is used to help take the complexity away from the reconstruction filter.

If you use noise shaping and then filter out the noise that does the work to dither, what happens to the effect of the dither?


Memo to noise shaping design staff: Don't shape the noise so agressively that it gets  totally filtered out by later processing steps. This is facilitied by the fact that shaped noise is subject to some spectral speading along the way.

16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

Reply #20
At first thought i would say that it is only possible to falsify the statement that it is a vinyl rip, meaning that you could only tell if it were NOT real. Like the 8 zeros thing (that would be pretty lame).

There is no actual relation between bit depth and sample rate, as others have said, but i would like to add that 24bit media is commonly seen sampled at 88.2, 96kHz, or higher. So i can see where you're coming from with your suspicion.

The only motivation i can see behind going from 16 to 24bit is to prevent quantization error during normalization. I guess that's fine, but your files are gonna be roughly 1.5 times bigger for the same quality.

But honestly, i wouldn't trust any vinyl rip, even knowing that it is genuine. Vinyl is meant to be spinning on a turntable for all i know. And no matter how good your equipment, recording analog audio from another recording equals to loss of fidelity in my book. That would be like taking a picture of a picture of the Mona Lisa, how cheesy is that?

Anyway. As for the sake of just wanting a higher quality version, i would go for an original 24bit digital download from the record company, if such a release exists. Go for Da Vinci himself.

16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

Reply #21
Ok thanks to all contributors for all these lively reactions.

I must honestly say that I did not understand a single word of all what has been discussed amongst the audio gurus out there... 
but I am pleased to see that apparently it's not that easy to understand.

Having understood what I could I dont't see then why it's a very wide spread habit to digitalise older vinyl audio material in 24bit. So apparently 90% of the people (of course it's just a guess but in any case many many people do it) do not understand anything... 

But maybe it's like the topic if one can hear the difference between mp3 cbr 320 and flac 16bit for the same source. So probably the discussion will never really end...   

Thanks again anyway! 

16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

Reply #22
If you use noise shaping and then filter out the noise that does the work to dither, what happens to the effect of the dither?


That depends entirely of the resolution/accuracy available in the domain where you do
that filtering.

Consider DSD with a signal chain ultimately feeding a loudspeaker with low bandwidth as a limit case.

--

To the OP: I'd say that about 1023 people in 1024 don't understand these things, so don't worry indeed.


16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

Reply #23
But maybe it's like the topic if one can hear the difference between mp3 cbr 320 and flac 16bit for the same source. So probably the discussion will never really end...
Myself and several others like me have scientific proof that we can hear that difference, at least on certain samples. Generally though, 320 is good enough. I use LAME V5 on my portable/in my car sometimes. Sounds great.

16bit/22.1kHz or 24bit/44.2kHz

Reply #24
But maybe it's like the topic if one can hear the difference between mp3 cbr 320 and flac 16bit for the same source. So probably the discussion will never really end...
Myself and several others like me have scientific proof that we can hear that difference, at least on certain samples. Generally though, 320 is good enough. I use LAME V5 on my portable/in my car sometimes. Sounds great.

Yes I did a test with a professional pianist with a great ear and she could tell pretty much every time which was which.

 
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