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Topic: Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS (Read 11847 times) previous topic - next topic
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Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

I am fairly familiar with the VBR alt preset standard, r3mix, ABR settings but these are relatively Hi-Fi settings best appreciated with expensive systems with little background noise.

I've been looking for the ideal settings for many of us who are looking for the best LAME preset for MP3 CD players.  Listening environments include cars, planes (ugh), but mostly in places with reasonable silence with some background noise or conversation.

For reference, I am using the new Sony D-CJ01 mp3 player with KOSS "The Plug" earphones with the CMoy modifications.  I am using the newest version of EAC and encoding with LAME 3.91.  CDs are burned on Plextor 12/10/32 with Nero 5.5.5.6 on WinXP.

I've successfully used VBR and ABR mp3s but a lot of players run into problems with skipping and search functions so I cannot recommend these modes until all the bugs are worked out.

That pretty much leaves CBR.  Based on my personal testing of CBR 128-256, I've found the ideal rate to be around 192kbs.  I couldn't distinguish quality with higher bitrates, probably from limitations of the player and/or headphones.  Even 160kbs performed well except with certain tracks with heavy distortion (metal songs, etc).  But those of you that have newer players and decent quality headphones should stick with 192.

Now before Dibrom reads this, I realize that 192 still doesn't sound anywhere near as good as alt-preset standard on my home system with Sennheisser headphones, but it weighs 60lbs and it's too hard to carry around.  Besides, I have to plug it into a socket before I can listen and by then I'm too tired to listen to anything anyway.

That being said, I'm going to recommend using CBR 192 for encoding CDs with the intention of listening to them on portable audio players.  Try using the following command line:

--alt-preset cbr 192

I think I noticed a slight difference between vanilla CBR 192 and using the above preset version but I haven't tested that enough to say for sure.

Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

Reply #1 –
how is the sony d-cj01? hows its sound quality?

Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

Reply #2 –
Why not burn a CD with --alt-preset standard first and see if the seeking gives you a problem with this particular player?

Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

Reply #3 –
For many uses, even plain old 128kbps CBR is OK. When I listen to online radio streams at 128kbps, I often can't hear the artifacts because the noise from the PC drowns alot of that out. And when I have a stream playing on my computer speakers I'm not really listening, it's just a background accompaniment, so intense quality is not paramount. For a portable player that may have only 64MB of memory, I'd go for something in the 128-160kbps range, preferrably ABR. At 192, you're only looking at 46 minutes of audio, but 160 and 128 would boost that to 55 and 68 minutes, respectively.

On a MP3 CD player, space isn't quite an issue, so you could easily do "--alt-preset insane" and fit over 5 hours on a CD-R. You'll never appreciate the full-blown 320kbps treatment on a portable, but you won't have to worry about any artifacts if that sort of thing really bothers you. Personally, I would use "--alt-preset standard". Artifacts produced in that mode generally aren't audible unless you have a nice quiet environment and are intently focussed on the audio.

Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

Reply #4 –
The Sony D-CJ01 sound quality is on par with other sony players in terms of quality.  But then again, the sound quality on the newer generation of MP3 CD-players such as the RioVOlt 250 and the iRiver SlimX are about the same as well.  To be honest, the greatest difference in sound quality will be determined by the quality of the headphones you use.

If you want no frills with good quality sound and long battery life, go with the Sony.  If you prefer a good interface with loads of cool features, get the Riovolt 250.  If you have $200 to spend and want the smallest player with lots of features and upgradable firmware (may support Ogg Vorbis soon) then get the iRiver SlimX.

I've tested VBR with both the Sony D-CJ01 and the RioVolt SP100.  Both can play VBR files but not without occasional skipping, and seeking problems.  I can't tolerate any sort of glitches like this so I won't encode in this mode until companies officially support it.  As for ABR, I have still yet to do further testing on a wider variety of music but it seems to work fairly well at least on my player.  I have heard of problems with displaying the "remaining time" on other players but I haven't done enough testing to recommend this mode yet.  ABR will sound slightly better than CBR but nowhere near the difference that VBR gives you so I'm not sure if it's worth the benefit over CBR.  I will comment again on ABR once I'm ready.

When it comes to solid state players with limited memory, you're better off at 128 or even less.  As for CDs, it's easy to burn at 320kbs and not worry about artifacts but my aim was to find the ideal bitrate/filesize ratio for a "decent" portable audio system.

cbr 192 can give you about 8.5 hours on an 80min CR-R.  Whereas cbr 320 can only give you about 4-6 hours.  If you can't hear the difference, then you're just wasting space at anything higher than 192.

Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

Reply #5 –
vshin:

"I've tested VBR with both the Sony D-CJ01 and the RioVolt SP100. Both can play VBR files but not without occasional skipping, and seeking problems. I can't tolerate any sort of glitches like this so I won't encode in this mode until companies officially support it. "

Hi,

I am using CDs with alt preset exterme or alt preset 128 (that's ABR !).

On my AVC Soul I never had any glitches, dropouts, problems or what ever, FW 1.05s.

Perhpas it is a FW issue of SP100. As far as I know, the 100 and Soul are hardware-identical. Perhaps there's a new FW.

VBR and ABR are standards for MP3. A MP3-player MUST play them.

Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

Reply #6 –
I use -F --alt-preset standard to make kbps strictly >=128 (no 32kbps for digital silence). This is needed for a few DVD players.

Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

Reply #7 –
aa, I have forgotten to write something else:

Personally I use --alt-preset extreme -F

It is better to specify in commandline -F switch behind alt-prset, because the last switch overrides the switches before.
As in altprset -F is not included, your -F is probably obsolete if you write alt-preset behind -F

Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

Reply #8 –
Ah, didnt know it is better to put -F after, I will do now. But as far as aps, -F does work before - I've tested it

Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

Reply #9 –
It doesn't matter where you put the -F tag since --alt-standard extreme doesn't use it.  You only have to worry about placement of tags if they're being used by a preset - for instance you must put -b80 after any of the --alt-preset arguments since they specify a -b tag already.
It's is not, it isn't ain't, and it's it's, not its, if you mean it is.  If you don't, it's its.

Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

Reply #10 –
This is what I use with my Riovolt SP90:

--alt-preset 180 --lowpass 18

I specify a lowpass since the default at ~19.5 seems a little high. This typical gives a bitrate in the 170s (good for around 9 hours of music on a CD). Usually sounds pretty good to me. I'd like to use --alt-preset standard but my Riovolt gives skip and seeking problems, while with ABR I haven't had one problem.

Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

Reply #11 –
Fwiw, I haven't noticed any issues with VBR on my AVC Soul either (FW v1.05s).  No skipping, no problems at all.

At first I thought there was a hissing introduced, but that ended up being a few specific files with background hiss (nothing to do with VBR).

As for seeking times displayed, who cares... I don't do much seeking around when listening and this wouldn't be an issue to me.  I don't know if there's any issue with seek times displayed using VBR on the Soul... only that the files sound good .

Edit -- the advantage of lower bitrates on MP3-CD players is they will save battery life in the 3rd-generation and above players, due to less buffering required.  The less often the CD has to spin up, the better.

Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

Reply #12 –
I'm using a Philips Expanium.
Most of my MP3 CDs are encoded with VBR. --r3mix and now --alt-preset fast extreme.

No pb what so ever!!! B-)

The only pb I encounter are due to dust or scratches on the CDs.

Sound is great.

Jord.

Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

Reply #13 –
I have recently got the sony d-cj01 and have been testing out my mp3 collection.

It plays all my CBR mp3s perfectly, and the sound is awesome.

But I run into some trouble with my newer mp3s that I encoded using --r3mix. I'm not sure of the real reason why, but the player skips at certain points in the song (just a fraction of a second) and it is quite noticable.

This is not due to read errors, as I have tested the same songs on different discs. My best guess is that the bitrate is changing very quickly, causing a minor buffer underflow.

This seems to occur in about 25% of my VBR mp3s. Usually the mp3s with average bitrates greater than 200kbps.

So far the only solution I see is to encode in CBR. Unless there is some special setting for lame that could correct this.

Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

Reply #14 –
Hello again

After posting, I went and played around with my lame settings. I tried the following without success: --strictly-enforce-ISO, --noshort, --allshort (awful quality).

Then I came across --nores (disable bit reservoir). I tried a few of my worst VBR encodings again, this time with "--r3mix --nores" and the appeared to play back perfectly on my sony.

According to the lame manual --nores may slightly decrease the quality. I noticed an increase of filesize of about 10% with the --nores switch, but the quality sounds much the same to me.

I am interested to hear what you think of this possible workaround for the current portable mp3/cd players.

Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

Reply #15 –
This result is perhaps interesting for Lame/MP3/Player-FW developer, too.

Perhpas it would help to reduce size of reservois or make buffer bigger for players or new player-FW in future.
AVC SOul is updateable, dunno about Sony.... -

Again:
With my AVC SOUL I have no dropouts, I am using --alt-preset extreme -b224 -F normally now, from my mp3 beginnings 256 CBR Radium and sometimes --alt-preset 132  (it is ABR around 128 to 130 kbit/s resulting filesize).

With r3mix I have no experience in portables.

Perhaps you try instead of r3mix  --alt-preset standard.

Perhaps some bits more, but in my opionion it is complete unimportant how many bits a mp3 has in regions like r3mix and altpreset standard (aps), if files are in between 170 up to 200, all  is nearly the same.
CD-R is so cheap, you get a lot of albums on one CD-R.....
I prefer bitrates even  higher than 200 kbit/s, because then I have enough space on cover of CD-R to write all album names.... :-)
heehee, haha, not the only reason...
More important is sound quality, aps is proven to sound much better than r3mix with similar filesize.
And perhaps with aps your dropouts are gone.
Please try it !

Perhaps specifying -F in --alt-preset standard -F helps.
Then something around 96 or 128 kbit/s is limited as lowest bitrate.

Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

Reply #16 –
I did try --alt-preset and the -F switches, and many other combinations, but they all had the same problems. The --nores switch was the only one that appeared to work VBR files on my sony. It is a pity that the sony is not firmware upgradable to fix this

I noticed that the files with "--r3mix --nores" are almost the same size as files created by the r3mix "CBR archive quality" settings, which create 256kbps files. So perhaps I may just use CBR instead, and avoid any potential problems in the future.

Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

Reply #17 –
Hi,

what is about ABR ?

ABR sounds better than CBR.

Try eg. --alt-preset bitrate    (ABR) or:
--alt-preset CBR bitrate    (CBR)

bitrate = 128, 160, 192, 224, 256 or whatever, with ABR "every" bitrate is possible.

Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

Reply #18 –
Ok, after updating the firmware on my RioVolt SP-90 to the latest iRiver firmware, all my VBR problems seem to be gone (not to mention a whole bunch of welcome menu options added). Also seems to seek and load songs much faster.

Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

Reply #19 –
Quote
Originally posted by ChS
Ok, after updating the firmware on my RioVolt SP-90 to the latest iRiver firmware, all my VBR problems seem to be gone (not to mention a whole bunch of welcome menu options added). Also seems to seek and load songs much faster.


How do you update firmware on the SP-90? I also have that model, but they said it's not upgradeable.

I'd love to know!!!

Scott

Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

Reply #20 –
Sure scoper, I PM'd you some info. Anyone else wants to know any info you can email me [a href='mailto:cbfallon@hotmail.com'][/a]

Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

Reply #21 –
i also have the sony player, and mine skipped at well. so i made a lot of mp3 test files, and discovered that the player can't read mp3's with frames that have bitrates of 320. so i just make the maximum bitrate 256, and had no problem

Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

Reply #22 –
I have the iRiver SlimX and it plays mp3 encoded with the --preset standard in Lame flawlessley. I did encounter a few clicks and pops but found out that the wav file extracted with EAC wasn't perfect.

Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

Reply #23 –
Quote
Originally posted by chandler
i also have the sony player, and mine skipped at well. so i made a lot of mp3 test files, and discovered that the player can't read mp3's with frames that have bitrates of 320. so i just make the maximum bitrate 256, and had no problem


Thanks for solving the mystery chandler!  I tested your solution and so far it works great.  The problem isn't from just any 320 bitrate frames, however.  I tested the Sony with heavy applause files that force --alt -preset standard into using almost exclusively 320 and they don't glitch.  But I have to agree the -B 256 option seems to solve the problem at the possible expense of some quality loss on difficult to encode material. 

I was using the applause files (from the Eagles Hell Freezes Over CD--the applause at about 1:30 into Hotel California and at the end of the CD are especially good tests) as they're really hard to encode.  On my high-end home system, on these tough test files, I'm not sure I can hear much difference with and without the -B 256 option which is good news.  As a bonus, it decreases file size slightly (especially on difficult to encode material).  At CBR 192 these files sound pretty bad.

Using the standard preset with the 256 limit yields better quality than CBR 192 and smaller file sizes than CBR 256 so I think it's an excellent compromise.

Now if Microsoft would just fix Windows Media Player so it can handle the times in VBR files correctly...

Best preset for PORTABLE MP3 CD PLAYERS

Reply #24 –
Quote
Originally posted by NWAudiophile

Now if Microsoft would just fix Windows Media Player so it can handle the times in VBR files correctly...


Mmm... I thought the best options for listening to MP3 with a computer were either WinAmp with MAD Input plugin or CoolPlayer (that uses the same mp3 decoder...)

edit: spelling