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Topic: Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files? (Read 14884 times) previous topic - next topic
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Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files?

Hey folks, I'm new to this forum - so if this topic belongs somewhere else, please let me know!  Here's my situation:

I've seen some discussion about ripping single-file disc images with a CUE sheet via EAC: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....c=16146&hl=

However I don't really see the point in doing this: Why would someone want to be stuck with a one single WAV file versus individual, tangible WAV files?  I see a few people mention "hidden" data before track #1 that they attempt to preserve, but I don't quite understand what is meant by "hidden" data...?

In any case, is there any way I can make an accurate "backup" off a CD utilizing individual WAV files with a CUE sheet or (maybe?) multiple CUE sheets instead of a single-file WAV file?  Is the CUE sheet(s) able to keep track of the correct positions of these individual WAV files on a CD?

By the way, hard drive space is not an issue for me and I prefer to keep everything in WAV: huge and uncompressed.  I do make lossy rips of music for my iPod in AAC (m4a) - I hence utilize iTunes.

Any help is greatly appreciated! 

Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files?

Reply #1 –
- Hidden track one audio:
The CD standard has 2 seconds "pause" between the tracks. That is "next track index 0", and when skipping to this track, the player starts at index 1. This index 0 can have audio (like, live recordings).
Track 1 also has an index 0. This is usually two seconds of silence (unnoticeable by you, as the CD player does not start at index 0, but at index 1). But some CDs have a longer index 0 filled with audio. This is "hidden track one audio", sometimes abbreviated HTOA.

I think EAC solves this by ripping an entire image and indicating in the cue sheet.
dBpoweramp, which I use, and which by default rips to single tracks, rips this to a track number 0.



- Image vs. individual files:
You can use individual tracks if you want to. dBpoweramp's solution is one example.
I use single tracks -- because of the need to re-rip single tracks with errors.

By the way, if you have a an "EnhancedCD" with a data track, then -- to my knowledge, and I've asked here a couple of times -- there is no image format available anyway.


- Using .wav:
Don't! Use a lossless format instead. It contains the same audio bits, merely packed a bit more clever, so you don't lose any audio information, and you will have better metadata capabilities. Yes there are ways to tag .wav files, but there is (AFAIK) no agreed-upon standard, so you are at risk of trouble when switching software.
I use and recommend FLAC. Free software (so there will always be decoders available) and great tagging capabilities. And it is optimized for decoding speed -- i.e., it takes CPU resources to encode (which you do only once), but not much to decode (which you do every time you playback or re-encode to a lossy format on your portable player).

Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files?

Reply #2 –
HTOA (hidden track one audio) is audio before the track's INDEX 01 (the marker defining where it begins), which in a normal CD player one must rewind before track 1 to hear. It isn't ripped by default when using single tracks, and some drives can't rip it at all (see here). It can be manually ripped to a single file, e.g. with EAC's Copy Range function, which can then be referenced in a cue sheet.

This leads quite well to your main question. To answer that, there's no difference in accuracy between single or multiple file rips. It's generally a matter of user preference. There are some recent discussions on this; please try searching the forum.

Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files?

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Porcus on
- Hidden track one audio:
The CD standard has 2 seconds "pause" between the tracks. That is "next track index 0", and when skipping to this track, the player starts at index 1. This index 0 can have audio (like, live recordings).
Track 1 also has an index 0. This is usually two seconds of silence (unnoticeable by you, as the CD player does not start at index 0, but at index 1). But some CDs have a longer index 0 filled with audio. This is "hidden track one audio", sometimes abbreviated HTOA.

I think EAC solves this by ripping an entire image and indicating in the cue sheet.
dBpoweramp, which I use, and which by default rips to single tracks, rips this to a track number 0.



- Image vs. individual files:
You can use individual tracks if you want to. dBpoweramp's solution is one example.
I use single tracks -- because of the need to re-rip single tracks with errors.

By the way, if you have a an "Enhanced CD" with a data track, then -- to my knowledge, and I've asked here a couple of times -- there is no image format available anyway.


- Using .wav:
Don't! Use a lossless format instead. It contains the same audio bits, merely packed a bit more clever, so you don't lose any audio information, and you will have better metadata capabilities. Yes there are ways to tag .wav files, but there is (AFAIK) no agreed-upon standard, so you are at risk of trouble when switching software.
I use and recommend FLAC. Free software (so there will always be decoders available) and great tagging capabilities. And it is optimized for decoding speed -- i.e., it takes CPU resources to encode (which you do only once), but not much to decode (which you do every time you playback or re-encode to a lossy format on your portable player).


1) Whether using EAC or dBpoweramp to rip individual files from a source CD - does it automatically create a single CUE sheet for the group, multiple CUE sheets for each file, (or some other type of metadata file altogether)?

2) Do EAC and/or dBpoweramp automatically take into account HTOA data when ripping the tracks individually - or do you have to turn on some special function like the mentioned EAC's "Copy Range" function?

3) Is creating the "accurate" back-up CD (burning a CD-R) - that would be identical to the source CD that was ripped, at least in terms of the audio portion (ignoring the possible loss of the "Enhanced CD" data track) - ONLY possible with a metadata file?  Or is a metadata file (like a CUE sheet) only needed for single-file images?

4) Porcus, let's say I'm open to the possibility of changing my WAV-hording ways and delve into FLAC (though it might be easier to go Apple Lossless, I don't like the idea of using a proprietary format for archiving purposes) - can you give me a (general/brief) overview of what my process would look like?  Here's what I need to acomplish:

a) Lossless individual files for archiving purposes.
b) Lossy individual files that are tagged with artist info and high-quality album artwork (which I use iTunes for currently) that I can put on my iPod.  I currently use and prefer AAC - unless you can convince me to go back to MP3...

This is Porcus, if you're willing to teach me your ways...

Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files?

Reply #4 –
1: A cue sheet defines the track layout of an entire CD, and tells programs where to find the audio, whether it's stored in one or multiple files.

2: No and yes respectively.

3: In terms of audio, as long as your ripping procedure is reliable, everything will be identical. Regarding additional information, cue sheets can store information about indices other than INDEX 01 (INDEX 00 are pregaps, including HTOA; indices beyond 01 are rare but can mark positions within tracks, e.g. the beginnings of multiple movements of a classical work), and some less-used properties such as CD/track 'serial numbers' (CATALOG/ISRC), flags, etc.

Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: dv1989 on
1: A cue sheet defines the track layout of an entire CD, and tells programs where to find the audio, whether it's stored in one or multiple files.

2: No and yes respectively.

3: In terms of audio, as long as your ripping procedure is reliable, everything will be identical. Regarding additional information, cue sheets can store information about indices other than INDEX 01 (INDEX 00 are pregaps, including HTOA; indices beyond 01 are rare but can mark positions within tracks, e.g. the beginnings of multiple movements of a classical work), and some less-used properties such as CD/track 'serial numbers' (CATALOG/ISRC), flags, etc.


Thank you very much!

So I'll open up this question then to anyone that doesn't mind sharing their recommendations on which program(s) and procedure(s) I would need in order to accomplish:

a) Lossless individual files for archiving purposes (I'm assuming FLAC) with a CUE sheet.
b) Lossy individual files that are tagged with artist info and high-quality album artwork (which I use iTunes for currently) that I can put on my iPod. I currently use and prefer AAC - unless you can convince me to go back to MP3...

*Haven't heard many people talking about dBpoweramp, but it seems to be a very good program.  Any preference with using EAC over dBpoweramp or vise versa?

Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files?

Reply #6 –
Quote from: wavlover on
4) Porcus, let's say I'm open to the possibility of changing my WAV-hording ways and delve into FLAC (though it might be easier to go Apple Lossless, I don't like the idea of using a proprietary format for archiving purposes) - can you give me a (general/brief) overview of what my process would look like?  Here's what I need to acomplish:


FLAC is the open format.  ALAC (Apple Lossless) is the proprietary format.

Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files?

Reply #7 –
I think wavlover knows that, and thus by "though" means while.

Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: wavlover on
So I'll open up this question...

Have you opened up our forum's search function or google to get this information?  These questions are asked on a far too regular basis.

Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: wavlover on
So I'll open up this question...

Have you opened up our forum's search function or google to get this information?  These questions are asked on a far too regular basis.


You're right - I'm sorry.  I'll be more specific in my questions.

I guess my main question is whether I should rip files directly off the source CD into individual FLAC (using EAC or dBpoweramp) or instead rip as individual WAV files and then use FLAC Frontend for encoding?

I guess this question would also cover whether I should use EAC or dBpoweramp directly for AAC (.m4a)...

Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files?

Reply #11 –
Why add an unnecessary step? The second scenario would take longer and probably require tedious manual tagging.

Edit: Re the first topic in greynol's results, the discussion of musicality/ABX is of course hideous, but here's another gem: "I would never normalise my audio collection. It would make the tiny cymbals sound as loud as the loudest sound. All nuances of the original artist are compromised."

Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files?

Reply #12 –
1) Cuesheet is necessary when you rip to image, to tell where one track ends and the next starts. If you rip to separate tracks, you usually don't need it -- and if you do, you can create later.
(Two reservations: (1) if you want to preserve _index points_, as mentioned. But your CD player probably doesn't even have that button, and they are practically not in use anymore. OK, I know some blasphemous rock band which had 66 indices in track 6, but hell ... (pun intended) (2) Pre-emphasis CDs. If you own one of those pesky objects, like Castle's original releases of the old Black Sabbath albums, then the FLAGS PRE line in a cuesheet will indicate.)
As for the metadata (artist etc.) for single tracks they are usually stored in the file itself.

2) As dv1989 mentioned, dBpoweramp does, it shows up as track 0 before track 1. (Some CD-ROM drives cannot rip it, and will replace by silence)

3) See dv1989.

4) You can the full metadata and high-quality album art etc in your lossless archive files too. No reason not to have it there, in your archive. The metadata should be preserved when you transcode to lossy for your iPod.
I don't know whether iTunes can handle FLAC, but there are other converters which can convert to AAC.
If you have a suitably quick computer, you do not even stor AAC files -- you can transcode on-the-fly with your FLAC files as source and your iPod as target. It is slower, but copying to an external drive (like your iPod) is slow writing. On my few-years-old dual core AMD, compressing to mp3 at highest-quality (i.e. slowest) settings was at 24x, i.e. two minutes for a full CD. (Test sample: 12 days of music --> 12 hours of conversion).



dBpoweramp vs. EAC: Note that dBpoweramp only offers its most advanced features in the paid version. However, reading HTOA is possible with the free version. 

- Both use AccurateRip (which is a must!). dBpoweramp and AccurateRip maintained by the same person. dBpoweramp has a bit more clever integration with AccurateRip: rather than read + reread + check AR, it will read + check AR and then if necessary reread. Sometimes it can combine two erroneous rips into one which verifies. Probably not a big deal in comparison.
But the version 14 beta of dBpoweramp now offers cross-pressing verification in AccurateRip. Don't know if that's scheduled for EAC. It means that if you have a pressing that is unmatched in the AccurateRip base, but there is another pressing of the same CD, bit-identical except shifted a few samples, it will still verify.

- There are some differences in the implementation of C2 error pointers. dBpoweramp claims to outdo EAC in comparison; it might of course be that Spoon (the developer) has merely solved the problems he has come across better than EAC does. On 200 CD changer, over firewire, EAC supports C2 error pointers while dBpoweramp does not. Exactly what is best on your drive is impossible to predict.

- Metadata! I would buy dBpoweramp for the metadata only, but then, I have ripped nearly 7000 CDs ... For an additional $6 (and that's less than dBpoweramp pays!), dBpoweramp will retrieve metadata, album art etc. from not only freedb (which EAC uses) but also Allmusic, GD and MusicBrainz. For semi-obscure CDs, Allmusic has information that I cannot find anywhere else, so it has saved me lots of typing. (For CDs which are in Discogs, I my experience is that this is a better source, so if you do everything manually, then using Mp3Tag with the just-improved Discogs retrieval will give you probably the most comprehensive details. My experience based on most rock; for classical, GD and then Allmusic is better I *think*.)

- Pre-emphasis CDs. dBpoweramp cannot yet process the equalization (promised in next version though). You can read off from the Track Technical column that this is one such CD, and process yourself or let EAC do it.

By the way, if you want freeware, then foobar2000 now also offers CD ripping with AccurateRip support, and crosspressing verification (... I think? At least it does crosspressing _retro_-verification on your files after ripping). Some -- including myself -- find foobar2000 irresisting. But hey, those of us probably don't use iTunes

Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files?

Reply #13 –
Regarding the notion that EAC requires a special function to retrieve HTOA, it is no more special than ripping a single file image to a compressed format or using test and copy when ripping an image (functions for which there are no dedicated buttons on the left side of the GUI).  These operations don't have a shortcut key combination associated with them either, though extracting HTOA in fact does.  You simply select the first track and either press Alt+Shift+X (leave out the Shift for uncompressed), or choose "Copy Selected Tracks Index-Based" from the Action menu.  You can cancel the operation once it has finished the hidden track or let it continue, then delete the 01.01 file.

I find this method is a better alternative than ripping a range.

Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files?

Reply #14 –
Quote from: Porcus on
dBpoweramp vs. EAC: Note that dBpoweramp only offers its most advanced features in the paid version. However, reading HTOA is possible with the free version.


I've been trying to fish around - but I can't seem to find what the exact differences are between the paid version of dBpoweramp and the free version besides the advanced metadata support... What else does the paid version offer?  (I don't mind paying for it, if I know it's worth it and I can use those features.)

Also, does dBpoweramp indeed support CUE sheets specifically or does it use another format?  I thought I read in some posts that dBpoweramp didn't support CUE sheets...

Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files?

Reply #15 –
Quote from: wavlover on
I can't seem to find what the exact differences are between the paid version of dBpoweramp and the free version besides the advanced metadata support... What else does the paid version offer?  (I don't mind paying for it, if I know it's worth it and I can use those features.)


http://www.dbpoweramp.com/db-versions.htm . You do get a trial period with full features though.


Quote from: wavlover on
Also, does dBpoweramp indeed support CUE sheets specifically or does it use another format?  I thought I read in some posts that dBpoweramp didn't support CUE sheets...

Cuesheet support is in early testing stage: http://forum.dbpoweramp.com/showthread.php?t=18981

Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files?

Reply #16 –
Quote
Quote from: wavlover on
Also, does dBpoweramp indeed support CUE sheets specifically or does it use another format?  I thought I read in some posts that dBpoweramp didn't support CUE sheets...

Cuesheet support is in early testing stage: http://forum.dbpoweramp.com/showthread.php?t=18981


So until this recent development, did dBpoweramp use a "tag" (like ID3 for MP3) that embedded itself into the FLAC file with all the metadata information including the artwork?  If so, is this standard practice?

---

How come dBpoweramp was so late to take up CUE sheets?  Also, does embedding CUE sheets do anything to mess up the audio data of a FLAC (akin to "breaking the container" of a WAV file)?

It makes more sense to have metadata files - CUE sheetse - embedded into the FLAC files themselves versus having to drag around separate CUE files...

Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files?

Reply #17 –
People regularly embed artwork in flac files.  Embedding logs and/or cue sheets in individual flac tracks can be done without any trouble as well, but is, IMO, very silly.

Quote from: wavlover on
How come dBpoweramp was so late to take up CUE sheets?
From some of what I recall reading, I've been under the impression that spoon wanted to reinvent the wheel with some type of proprietary format.

Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files?

Reply #18 –
Quote from: greynol on
People regularly embed artwork in flac files.  Embedding logs and/or cue sheets in individual flac tracks can be done without any trouble as well, but is, IMO, very silly.


Curious as to why you find it silly? Do you prefer to keep the CUE files separate from the FLAC files?

When people embed artwork, etc., is there are standard method for doing so with FLAC or is up to the software you use?

Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files?

Reply #19 –
Quote from: wavlover on
did dBpoweramp use a "tag" (like ID3 for MP3) that embedded itself into the FLAC file with all the metadata information including the artwork?  If so, is this standard practice?


Yes. FLAC tags (the correct phrase is "Vorbis comments") is standard practice (although tag names slightly less standardised than ID3 for MP3), and they are used regardless of whether there is a cuesheet or not.

Edit: As for your last post:
- Yes, there is a standard way of artwork embedding.
- If you have individual files, all tagged, why do you want an embedded cue sheet in addition? If you have one image file, you need it for table-of-contents; if you have separate files, then (modulo index points and the issue of gap appending/prepending ...), what do you need a table-of-contents for?

Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files?

Reply #20 –
What is it about a cue sheet that makes you feel like it should be associated with a single track?

I keep the appropriate CUE sheet in the same folder with my flac tracks for archival purposes, yes.  I keep my scans in a separate sub-folder, but would embed the cover if I had playback hardware that could only handle it that way.

There are very few restrictions when it comes to adding metatdata to flac files.  It makes no difference so long as what you use works for you.  Most people around here will probably recommend mp3tag to embed images.

Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Porcus on
If you have individual files, all tagged, why do you want an embedded cue sheet in addition? If you have one image file, you need it for table-of-contents; if you have separate files, then (modulo index points and the issue of gap appending/prepending ...), what do you need a table-of-contents for?


I actually don't know - I only assumed (likely out of ignorance) that you needed a CUE sheet so that *if* you were to burn the files back to a CD-R in the future, that it would be an exact copy (of the audio portion) of the original source CD from which you ripped - even with individual files.

PLUS, I thought that CUE sheets were the metedata information (where all of the artwork and artist info was stored) - I didn't realize that there was also embedded info...

What did you mean be "modulo" index points, issue of gap appending/prepending?

Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files?

Reply #22 –
CUE sheets are not necessary for an exact copy of the audio portion.  They only affect the location of the first track (if it deviates from the standard) and add subcode information such as non-01 index points, CD-TEXT (which may not exist on the original CD), useless UPC/ISRC data, and pre-emphasis information (which does affect playback quality, but has no bearing on the audio data itself).  The only exception is that a CUE sheet is required to burn HTOA.  BTW, CUE sheets for single file images are not the only ones to allow burning HTOA.  This can be done using sheets with gaps corrected combined with tracks with gaps prepended, sheets generated by splitting images to separate files per index, or a noncompliant sheet modified to include the HTOA as a separate file combined with tracks with gaps appended, or any other custom noncompliant sheet based on a hybrid of any of these methods.

This is the method that I use:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=448865

CUE sheets have nothing to do with artwork.  If you weren't already aware, they are nothing but text files.  Feel free to open one up with a text editor and have a look inside.

Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files?

Reply #23 –
Quote from: wavlover on
I only assumed (likely out of ignorance) that you needed a CUE sheet so that *if* you were to burn the files back to a CD-R in the future, that it would be an exact copy (of the audio portion) of the original source CD from which you ripped - even with individual files.

See Greynol's reply.


Quote from: wavlover on
PLUS, I thought that CUE sheets were the metedata information (where all of the artwork and artist info was stored) - I didn't realize that there was also embedded info...

Yet another reason to find yourself a better nick 
(OK, there are ways to embed metadata into .wav, but they are hardly well-supported.)


Quote from: wavlover on
What did you mean be "modulo" index points, issue of gap appending/prepending?

Math / computer science-inspired jargon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modulo

Accurate Disc Image With Individual WAV files?

Reply #24 –
Just for comparison, a cuesheet for an album and the embedded metadata w/o albumart (first from dBpoweramp and then retrieved from Discogs by means of Mp3Tag) of just one of the tracks:

Code: [Select]
REM COMMENT "CUETools generated dummy CUE sheet"
FILE "Judas Priest [1976] ~ Sad Wings of Destiny ~ 01 ~ Victim of Changes.flac" WAVE
  TRACK 01 AUDIO
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "Judas Priest [1976] ~ Sad Wings of Destiny ~ 02 ~ The Ripper.flac" WAVE
  TRACK 02 AUDIO
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "Judas Priest [1976] ~ Sad Wings of Destiny ~ 03 ~ Dreamer Deceiver.flac" WAVE
  TRACK 03 AUDIO
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "Judas Priest [1976] ~ Sad Wings of Destiny ~ 04 ~ Deceiver.flac" WAVE
  TRACK 04 AUDIO
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "Judas Priest [1976] ~ Sad Wings of Destiny ~ 05 ~ Prelude.flac" WAVE
  TRACK 05 AUDIO
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "Judas Priest [1976] ~ Sad Wings of Destiny ~ 06 ~ Tyrant.flac" WAVE
  TRACK 06 AUDIO
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "Judas Priest [1976] ~ Sad Wings of Destiny ~ 07 ~ Genocide.flac" WAVE
  TRACK 07 AUDIO
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "Judas Priest [1976] ~ Sad Wings of Destiny ~ 08 ~ Epitaph.flac" WAVE
  TRACK 08 AUDIO
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "Judas Priest [1976] ~ Sad Wings of Destiny ~ 09 ~ Island of Domination.flac" WAVE
  TRACK 09 AUDIO
    INDEX 01 00:00:00

Then the metadata for the single track file:

Code: [Select]
AccurateRipResult=AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 9)   [028BE5DA]
AccurateRipDiscID=009-000e384f-00658482-92093509-6
Composer=Rob Halford
Composer=Glenn Tipton
UPC=4009910455227
Rating=4.5
Length=269600
CDTOC=9+B6+88E5+BB14+1227F+15360+17716+1C612+22C33+2670A+2B338
CDDB Disc ID=92093509
ALBUMARTIST=Judas Priest
TOTALTRACKS=09
DISCNUMBER=1
TOTALDISCS=1
Title=Tyrant
Artist=Judas Priest
Album=Sad Wings Of Destiny
Genre=Rock
Discogs_Release_ID=683785
Discogs_Catalog=KOC-CD-8067
Mediatype=CD
Discogs_Country=US
Style=Heavy Metal
Discogs_Credits=Bass - Ian Hill (2)
Drums - Alan Moore (2)
Guitar - Glenn Tipton , K. K. Downing
Producer - Jeffrey Calvert , Judas Priest , Max West
Vocals - Rob Halford
DATE=2000
ORGANIZATION=Koch Records
TRACKNUMBER=6

Edit: Don't be fooled into thinking that the CDTOC entry is necessary to recreate an audio CD image for burning. What is essentially needed is the track enumeration.