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The war has begun!

Reply #50
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I'm not going to join the general debate here, save to say that the title of this thread is wrong. The Gulf War was never ended. There was a Cease Fire which would lead to peace if Iraq obeyed the conditions attached to the Cease Fire. This has never happened, so the war is not a new one, it is simply unfinished business.

Anyone who thinks this action is wrong obviously condones genocide and the use of biological weapons against ones own peoples. Get real!!

Very well said john33!

The war has begun!

Reply #51
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I don't think yours are valid either, JohnV. Hitler had already invaded many countries, and killed millions of people, when allied forces "fixed" him. Irak hasn't attacked anyone in 10 years, and it's not likely he was going do do.

USA is thinking more distant to the future, even after Saddam. If nothing is done, Saddam's legacy, his sons, continue where he left. If Saddam and his sons can continue little by little building their military and especially since development goes on, it's every year easier and easier to make quickly and secretly biological and chemical weapons. They did those before, there's no reason why Saddam and his sons suddenly became "better persons".
There's every evidence that Saddam is lingering to the last second and only does as little as possible co-operation with the UN. Without USA's military threat, there sure wouldn't have been any kind of weapon inspections at all.
Juha Laaksonheimo

The war has begun!

Reply #52
SK1, what you are talking is so absurd that isn't worth any comment.

Please, let the Israel/Palestine discussion for another thread.

The war has begun!

Reply #53
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Without USA's military threat, there sure wouldn't have been any kind of weapon inspections at all.

Agreed. I'm not saying they were going to become "good" in the future. But what keeps the world from appliying that pressure as much time as needed so that Irak doesn't become a threat again?

The war has begun!

Reply #54
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SK1, what you are talking is so absurd that isn't worth any comment.

Please, let the Israel/Palestine discussion for another thread.

Gee thanks for reasonable debate and explainations.
Seperate everything then. Us from them, their threat, your threat and our threat.
What ever. Bye.

The war has begun!

Reply #55
The world has looked into Iraq and decided that Saddam is not doing what is best for his people. The world suggested (dictated?) what Saddam should do to improve the situation. Saddam refused. Parts of the world decided that it had gone on long enough, and other parts of the world think that he still has a chance.

Personally, I see Saddam as a cancer. At first, you don't notice it. But then it grows and eventually kills you. In order to stop it, you have it removed. If you don't remove it completely, it starts to grow again and you gain nothing but a few years of peace in the interim. Is this not how things have progressed?

I know that there will never be peace in the Middle East. There are too many radically different religions fostering radically different societies and resulting in radically different lifestyles. And these radically different lifestyles are in much too small an area... much too close a proximity. It would be nice of the Middle East could be placed in a bubble where the people could bicker amongst themselves while the rest of the world went about it's business, but I know that's not possible. So the only option for the world is to look into its parts and decide what can be done and what will have global influences. Then the world can decide which of those global influences are for the benefit of the world and which of those should be stopped (and which of those *can* be stopped).

I cannot say whether or not my country is doing the "right thing". Those who make the decisions know far more than I do. However, I do know that a decision was made. I happen to agree that the world would be better off were Saddam not in power. Whether or not I agree with the decision, I feel it is for the common good and therefore I support it.
[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']I wouldn't know a subtle hint if it stood on my desk in a purple dress dancing and singing, "Subtle hints are here again!"[/span]

The war has begun!

Reply #56
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Well, palestinians are not wanted by their original country, they are simply not wanted. They can say what ever they want, the fact is no harm is being done to them.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that israelis are not doing any harm to palestinians?
It's weird, because I used to be more on the side of Israel just about 6-10 months ago, but then I saw few documents (which were filmed by western film groups) which totally made me realize that israelis and palestinians are just as bad both.

It probably comes as surprise to many people that israelis killed at least double the amount of palestinians last year (majority can't be counted as terrorists) than died by palestinian terrorists. Although it was not the death tolls that made me think. It was simply the attitudes of the israeli people living in the colonies who were interviewed. They simply didn't regard palestinians as humans, more like animals and terrorists. I don't know which is worse, the thing that palestinian suicide bombers blow themselves up killing families, or israeli caterpillars killing palestinian families to their homes, when the homes are destroyed because new israeli colonies will be built.

My opinion is that both israelis and palestinians are just as bad. But in both camps there are people who are strongly against the violance. According to a few documents, there's a small but increasing number of (ex)-soldiers from privates to higher ranking officers in Israel who would die for defending their country but absolutely don't agree with what is happening in colonies and refused to serve their time in the colonies. It was sure nice to see, that even some soldiers realize what is really happening in the illegal colonies, and that it is wrong.
Juha Laaksonheimo

The war has begun!

Reply #57
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Agreed. I'm not saying they were going to become "good" in the future. But what keeps the world from appliying that pressure as much time as needed so that Irak doesn't become a threat again?

So you mean that USA should keep this kind of military power which makes Saddam to co-operate in the Gulf year after year after year? Even though USA is the richest country in the world, even it has not that kind of money. Not to mention the ever lasting insecurity what would follow. The world would just slow down completely.. The world economy,development, everything.
Juha Laaksonheimo

The war has begun!

Reply #58
This thread hasn't been closed yet???

Damn, come on, Mr Moderators/Admins...

The war has begun!

Reply #59
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So you mean that USA should keep this kind of military power which makes Saddam to co-operate in Gulf year after year? Even though USA is the richest country in the world, even it has not that kind of money.

Well, I'd say they will spend more in this war than would have spent in 10 or 20 years of just pressure. I didn't see any complaint from USA and UK of military pressure being too expensive, I mean, AFAIK that is not even a reason they used for the attack.

The war has begun!

Reply #60
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This thread hasn't been closed yet???

Damn, come on, Mr Moderators/Admins...

Why? As long as this keeps in control there's no reason to close this. But make no mistake, I'm wathing it..
Juha Laaksonheimo

The war has begun!

Reply #61
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Well, I'd say they will spend more in this war than would have spent in 10 or 20 years of just pressure. I didn't see any complaint from USA and UK of military pressure being too expensive, I mean, AFAIK that is not even a reason they used for the attack.

Well, the military power needed to pressure Saddam nowadays to co-operate really costs a fortune, although of course war is gonna cost temporarely relatively much more. But the biggest issue imo is that it's really not an option that the world is in so insecure state for tens of years. The military threat which made Saddam to co-operate even a little bit means, that it must be strong enough for possible severe actions against Iraq. This would keep the whole world in constant insecure state for years and years to come, since USA could use the force anytime (otherwise there really wouldnt be any threat and Saddam wouldn't co-operate).
It just wouldn't work, and it would cause severe global depression and development slowdowns far to the future. And Saddam is not the only bad guy in the world..
Juha Laaksonheimo

The war has begun!

Reply #62
You have no idea what you're saying. But of course, you don't live here and you get to hear and read the twisted stuff only.
Look, if you are an israeli, and you go in to Gaza, very soon you will be beaten and most probably killed by an arab mob. It's not an assumption nor a myth, it is the plain truth and it has happened many times.
If western film groups is what you consider a source for learning, not to mention, learning truths, you are very wrong.
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It probably comes as surprise to many people that israelis killed at least double the amount of palestinians last year (majority can't be counted as terrorists) than died by palestinian terrorists.

This is so unbelieveably ridiculous. This is not the truth. If you think it is, better think again.
The majority is indeed terrorism supporters. If anyone tells you otherwise, it's either because they don't know what they're saying, or lying to you.
Did you even stop to think that they may be showing you only the interviews with the most fanatic israeli people who live in the colonies so that you'll get only a bad impression?
And in any case, there's a reason to their opinions on palestinians, the vast majority will kill you if you set foot in gaza.
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I don't know which is worse, the thing that palestinian suicide bombers blow themselves up killing families, or israeli caterpillars killing families to their homes, when the homes are destroyed because new israeli colonies will be build.

What israeli caterpillars  killing families to their homes what the FUCK?? Sorry but what the FUCK are you talking about? Such a thing never, EVER happend nor will happen. This is another IDIOTIC lie, which i find quite hard to believe you believe. Such a thing NEVER HAPPENED, period. Israelies don't blow themselves up! Israelis don't perform terrorism acts upon palestinians! Israeli's don't wreck LEGAL homes! Not to mention with PEOPLE inside (oh my god how stupid). They just DON'T. So that new israeli colonies will be built? Almost any israeli would tell you "where do you live, in space or something? i'd never go live there if i'd get a million dollars". Because of the simple reason they will be killed by the palestinians surrounding them.
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My opinion is that both israelis and palestinians are just as bad. But in both camps there are people who are strongly against the violance.

Sure, israelis are just as bad as the majority of palestinians who are terrorism supporters and/or terrorists. Israelis murder families in the middle of the night in their own homes too, sure.
If anyone in a palestinian community is against the violence you can be pretty sure John, that this person will be killed by people from his community. NO palestinian will say to you "i'm against the terrorism acts being done on israelis". NO ONE.
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It was sure nice to see, that even some soldiers realize what is really happening in the illegal colonies, and that it is wrong.

Those soldiers who "realize" what is "really" happening in the "illegal" colonies are probably less than half percent of all soldiers, and are either mind numb idiots or liers. The media will show you the twisted of all.

It is frustrating to see that people are so ignorant about what's happening in Israel. And believe so idiotic lies.

Pfff, go read some real stuff and educate yourself. http://www.idf.il/iraq/english/info.stm

The war has begun!

Reply #63
@SK1

I find it very distasteful what you are saying. Here are a few facts, personally I believe Israel to be the heart of the problem in the middle east, that and years of manipulation by America in that region.

These are facts not in dispute, Israel has illegally from the international stand point occupied foreign territories. Israel 'stole' uranium from America to create its nuclear weapons. Israel has not complied with more UN resolutions than any other nation in the world. I also find it distasteful of the Israeli army goes against unarmed / lightly armed civilians in the name of 'wiping of terrorists'. It is also bad timing of the Americans to announce a 9 billion bail out deal (of that billions in arms) for Israel at the start of the Iraq campaign.

For reference I have grown up with the Terrorist threat in the UK from Ireland, but not for 1 second would I advocate sending tanks into Ireland to crush the locals, luckily neither did the government and we have peace at the moment.

BTW I am not an Arab, not a Muslim, not an American hater.

The war has begun!

Reply #64
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I don't think your comparison of Russia's attack to Finland against Bush/Blair attack to Iraq is very valid.

I didn't mean to draw a straight parallel in the whole situation, but the means were used.
Really, the Bush/Blair goals can't encourage people to stand another bombings. For them it's the same 'external invasion/defending independance' situation, I believe.

It's UN (which was the main achievement of international community after WWII) role to decide what's need to be done about the situation.
But the new coalition has taken that part from it, as they believe that both iraqi people and UN are unable to do that right thing.


The war has begun!

Reply #66
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Israel has illegally from the international stand point occupied foreign territories. Israel 'stole' uranium from America to create its nuclear weapons. Israel has not complied with more UN resolutions than any other nation in the world. I also find it distasteful of the Israeli army goes against unarmed / lightly armed civilians in the name of 'wiping of terrorists'. It is also bad timing of the Americans to announce a 9 billion bail out deal (of that billions in arms) for Israel at the start of the Iraq campaign.

For reference I have grown up with the Terrorist threat in the UK from Ireland, but not for 1 second would I advocate sending tanks into Ireland to crush the locals, luckily neither did the government and we have peace at the moment.

BTW I am not an Arab, not a Muslim, not an American hater.

From the "international standpoint" arab nations "illegally" tried to take over all of israel by joining all their forces together.
Israel doesn't steal shit from America. Go tell that to someone else.
Israel has not complied with the UN because israel unlike the UN has a need to fight terrorism, not support it.
Israeli army forces never go against unarmed, where the heck did you hear/read/see this? More arab media?
Israel in case you don't know, is America's most important ally in this war, America needs to support Israel just like Israel supports America.

The war has begun!

Reply #67
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I know that there will never be peace in the Middle East. There are too many radically different religions fostering radically different societies and resulting in radically different lifestyles. And these radically different lifestyles are in much too small an area... much too close a proximity.

I don't subscribe to this - there are small optimistic signs which give me hope.

Whilst is may be human nature for different religious and ethnic groups to fight, it's not universal. There are plenty of European cities where a greater mix of people live together than in the middle east, and they don't kill each other.

I don't know what the rest of the world is like (though I know I sensed 10 times more black/white division present in the USA than I've ever noticed at home), but in the UK it's normal for kids from different religions and races to go to school together, be friends, and their families live alongside each other. OK, so we also have Northern Ireland and the BNP (a fascist political party), but not every mixing of races and religions has to result in conflict.

When people don't feel under threat, but feel secure and well off, and part of a multicultural society (there's a buzz word for you!), they don't tend to fight. Even if they live next door to each other.

But people in the UK aren't generally fed race-hate material from birth - in fact the media (especially the BBC) try very hard to promote the opposite - a liberal, tolerant society.

I'm not saying the UK is particularly good at this (though I can think of countries who are worse) - just saying that there is hope.

Most western nations are much further on with racial and religious tolerance (and better) than they were this time last century. Maybe the Middle East can follow. one day.


Cheers,
David.

P.S. I feel a John Lennon song coming on! ;-)

The war has begun!

Reply #68
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You have no idea what you're saying. But of course, you don't live here and you get to hear and read the twisted stuff only.

If western film groups is what you consider a source for learning, not to mention, learning truths, you are very wrong.

True I don't live there, but it also means that I'm less biased. I'm certainly seen enough material from both sides (like I said, I was more on the side of Israel before, but now I'm not on either ones side), and somewhere in between is the truth. It always is.

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This is so unbelieveably ridiculous. This is not the truth. If you think it is, better think again.
The majority is indeed terrorism supporters. If anyone tells you otherwise, it's either because they don't know what they're saying, or lying to you.

Ok, and where did you get the information that they indeed are terrorism supporters? From the goverment supporting media? Or did you knew these people personally?
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Did you even stop to think that they may be showing you only the interviews with the most fanatic israeli people who live in the colonies so that you'll get only a bad impression?
Well, from people living from colonies there were bad and worse impressions. And even without interviews they must know that they are moving to the areas where they shouldn't go according to UN resolution. I don't think I could get any good impression even if they wanted to give it.
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And in any case, there's a reason to their opinions on palestinians, the vast majority will kill you if you set foot in gaza.
So they are all animals and terrorists?

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What israeli caterpillars  killing families to their homes what the FUCK?? Sorry but what the FUCK are you talking about? Such a thing never, EVER happend nor will happen. This is another IDIOTIC lie, which i find quite hard to believe you believe. Such a thing NEVER HAPPENED, period.
Yeah, when people die in home demolitions by israelis, it only gets news coverage when western people die also..
http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.03.2....21/news11.html
This was just an example though. Most palestinians die to the bullets of israeli soldiers.

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Israeli's don't wreck LEGAL homes!
Well.. If legal is defined by what UN says, then you are wrong.

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Sure, israelis are just as bad as the majority of palestinians who are terrorism supporters and/or terrorists. Israelis murder families in the middle of the night in their own homes too, sure.
If anyone in a palestinian community is against the violence you can be pretty sure John, that this person will be killed by people from his community. NO palestinian will say to you "i'm against the terrorism acts being done on israelis". NO ONE.
Heh.. I can sure tell that you live in Israel..  It's totally impossible to be unbiased there. Notice that I'm not defending palestinians at all. All I'm saying that both sides are just as bad.

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Those soldiers who "realize" what is "really" happening in the "illegal" colonies are probably less than half percent of all soldiers, and are either mind numb idiots or liers. The media will show you the twisted of all.
They were not idiots nor liers. In the document both the soldiers and their superiors were interviewed. If he/she refuses to serve on illegal colonies, you are out, as simple as that, even though the person would gladly serve in any other place.

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It is frustrating to see that people are so ignorant about what's happening in Israel. And believe so idiotic lies.

I don't believe everything at all. But what I now believe is that the truth is somewhere in between. And that either side is not better than the other.
Juha Laaksonheimo

The war has begun!

Reply #69
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What israeli caterpillars killing families to their homes what the F***?? Sorry but what the F*** are you talking about? Such a thing never, EVER happend nor will happen.


An American Peace lady killed in such activity...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_ea...ast/2856433.stm

This never happened and there is no proof. All you have is a letter saying this is what happened. Got pictures damn it? This is a stupid lie,

The war has begun!

Reply #70
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This never happened and there is no proof. All you have is a letter saying this is what happened. Got pictures damn it? This is a stupid lie,

Yes, it happened. It was here on TV, too (different stations, also EuroNews which isn't german). The other activists were at a police station and reported about it in shock, while holding her passport into the camera. There was a statement from the Israeli side saying it was an "unfortunate accident".

The war has begun!

Reply #71
Quote from: JohnV,Mar 20 2003 - 04:50 PM
Quote from: SK1,Mar 20 2003 - 06:16 PM
You have no idea what you're saying. But of course, you don't live here and you get to hear and read the twisted stuff only.

If western film groups is what you consider a source for learning, not to mention, learning truths, you are very wrong.

True I don't live there, but it also means that I'm less biased. I'm certainly seen enough material from both sides (like I said, I was more on the side of Israel before, but now I'm not on either ones side), and somewhere in between is the truth. It always is.

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This is so unbelieveably ridiculous. This is not the truth. If you think it is, better think again.
The majority is indeed terrorism supporters. If anyone tells you otherwise, it's either because they don't know what they're saying, or lying to you.

Ok, and where did you get the information that they indeed are terrorism supporters? From the goverment supporting media? Or did you knew these people personally?
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Did you even stop to think that they may be showing you only the interviews with the most fanatic israeli people who live in the colonies so that you'll get only a bad impression?
Well, from people living from colonies there were bad and worse impressions. And even without interviews they must know that they are moving to the areas where they shouldn't go according to UN resolution. I don't think I could get any good impression even if they wanted to give it.
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And in any case, there's a reason to their opinions on palestinians, the vast majority will kill you if you set foot in gaza.
So they are all animals and terrorists?

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What israeli caterpillars  killing families to their homes what the FUCK?? Sorry but what the FUCK are you talking about? Such a thing never, EVER happend nor will happen. This is another IDIOTIC lie, which i find quite hard to believe you believe. Such a thing NEVER HAPPENED, period.
Yeah, when people die in home demolitions by israelis, it only gets news coverage when western people die also..
http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.03.2....21/news11.html
This was just an example though. Most palestinians die to the bullets of israeli soldiers.

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Israeli's don't wreck LEGAL homes!
Well.. If legal is defined by what UN says, then you are wrong.

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Sure, israelis are just as bad as the majority of palestinians who are terrorism supporters and/or terrorists. Israelis murder families in the middle of the night in their own homes too, sure.
If anyone in a palestinian community is against the violence you can be pretty sure John, that this person will be killed by people from his community. NO palestinian will say to you "i'm against the terrorism acts being done on israelis". NO ONE.
Heh.. I can sure tell that you live in Israel..  It's totally impossible to be unbiased there. Notice that I'm not defending palestinians at all. All I'm saying that both sides are just as bad.

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Those soldiers who "realize" what is "really" happening in the "illegal" colonies are probably less than half percent of all soldiers, and are either mind numb idiots or liers. The media will show you the twisted of all.
They were not idiots nor liers. In the document both the soldiers and their superiors were interviewed. If he/she refuses to serve on illegal colonies, you are out, as simple as that, even though the person would gladly serve in any other place.

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It is frustrating to see that people are so ignorant about what's happening in Israel. And believe so idiotic lies.

I don't believe everything at all. But what I now believe is that the truth is somewhere in between. And that either side is not better than the other.

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Yeah, when people die in home demolitions by israelis, it only gets news coverage when western people die also..
http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.03.2....21/news11.html
This was just an example though. Most palestinians die to the bullets of israeli soldiers.

Bullshit. Give a fucking single proof. This is a lie.
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Well.. If legal is defined by what UN says, then you are wrong.

Yeah, like that's important.
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So they are all animals and terrorists?

Did i say all or did i say majority? Or do you like inserting words into my mouth..
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Heh.. I can sure tell that you live in Israel..  It's totally impossible to be unbiased there. Notice that I'm not defending palestinians at all. All I'm saying that both sides are just as bad.

It has nothing to do with bias.
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..they must know that they are moving to the areas where they shouldn't go according to UN resolution.

"UN resolution" doesn't mean shit. UN has not shown complete objection to terrorism, whereas America and israel has. UN resolution basically, means shit, i consider them terrorist supporters, as well as israely army leaders.
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Ok, and where did you get the information that they indeed are terrorism supporters? From the goverment supporting media? Or did you knew these people personally?

Actually no, from being there as well, personally[/q], and from many friends of mine who were.

The war has begun!

Reply #72
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This never happened and there is no proof. All you have is a letter saying this is what happened. Got pictures damn it? This is a stupid lie,

Yes, it happened. It was here on TV, too (different stations, also EuroNews which isn't german). The other activists were at a police station and reported about it in shock, while holding her passport into the camera. There was a statement from the Israeli side saying it was an "unfortunate accident".

Look, one incident happened and people decide that israelis ruin houses with people inside. TOUGH FUCKING LUCK, next time people shouldn't stand in front of Bulldozers!!! They should keep this kind of mind numb activity in their own country instead of being idiots here and getting hurt because of it.

The war has begun!

Reply #73
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Actually no, from being there as well, personally[/q], and from many friends of mine who were.

So you and your friends were there when the alleged terrorists were killed.. That's interesting.
Juha Laaksonheimo

The war has begun!

Reply #74
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Israel in case you don't know, is America's most important ally in this war, America needs to support Israel just like Israel supports America.


What war is that? terror? Iraq? or Arabs?

Seems to me SK1 that most of the free opinion of this board (from people spread out around the world) disagree with you. Israel & America are not the internation community, only a part of it.

 
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