Interconnects
Reply #80 – 2008-07-12 12:27:59
I've read down this thread, and seen a great deal of overcomplication of a very simple matter. You consider the part, that listening in practice requires a LISTENER with a MIND which modifies the signal ALWAYS, an "overcomplication"? What stops you from understanding what honestguv is pointing out, is a strongly externalistic mindset (lol). He is pointing out, that the listening experience in practice, does not just depend on some matter arranging in soundwaves and reaching a sensor which records it - it also depends on what happens afterwards. There is no music and no sound without mind. Thats part of "listening to music". (An analogy would be: The experience of eating dinner, doesn't just depend on whats in the dish itself). He isn't questioning that the signal in the cable isn't changed significantly.... he is questioning that understanding the entire topic, can be achieved by just looking at the external aspect. Stuff like intentions, purposes, efficiency, etc.... the endresult which reaches the consciousness which listens to the sound in practice... is not just an externalistic matter. I dont know about you, but i and most other people do not listen to music specifically because of "what happens in the cable, the speaker, etc"... i listen to music because of the end result which reaches my consciousness.... and that endresult depends on both, the hardware, and "how" i process the data which reaches my ears. Or to put it really simple - he is stating that "listening to music" depends on external factors, internal factors and the interactions between both. Unless you're trying to push a "mind doesn't exist" XOR "reality doesn't exist" worldview, his point doesn't need a "scientific test" because its almost a truism. He isn't engaging in a purely "scientific discussion" - he is looking at all aspects of the topic. The reason why you failed to notice that is because you were/are stuck in tunnel-view. - Lyx P.S.: krabapple put on ignore. So you can as well spare your time and effort in trying to establish a flamewar with me. P.S.2.: To escalate honestguvs argument (so that it becomes more obvious to..... externalists): First we establish a purpose/goal - something which we want to achieve. In this example, its that we desire the endresult/listening experience which reaches "I" to have certain "qualities". For this to be a "goal", the current state needs to be different to this goal (so, we are dissatistied with how our current listening experience is like). So, we now have a current state, and a goal state..... whats left is how to get from current state to that goal state - we need to find an EFFICIENT "method" (or a mix of methods) to achieve that goal-state. We can modify the external factors... like speaker-quality, DSPs, cabling, etc..... so that we dont need to modify how we process the data in our mind. Or we could create the goal state by not changing external factors at all and only changing the processing done in our mind (in laymans terms: "imagine it"). We could also do a mix of both. Or we could start doing more complicated stuff with the interaction between internal and external.... or we could create the goal state by lying to ourself.... i.e. asuming that the external factors changed (better cable) while in truth just changing how we process the data in our mind. With all those options/methods, we can reach the desired goal state! Point. Morals and ideology dont change this simple fact - we can create the desired goal state with any of those options. What those options differ in, isn't the reached goal-state, but their EFFICIENCY....i.e. invested resources (COST) and sideeffects (i.e. disadvantages). For example, investing in quality equipment typically has a high one-off cost, but very low running costs and almost no bad sideeffects. Doing it via imagination only has a very low one-off cost, but high running costs (constant effort to keep up the imagination). Doing it via belief/placebo MAY have very extremely high one-off costs, and has high sideeffects (losing the option of being honest to oneself). Interestingly, the in this case usually most efficient option, is a mix.... investing in above-average equipment (without going for high-quality equipment), improving aesthetics (room decoration, equipment design) and adding a little bit of imagination (the "mood") typically results in the most bang for the buck. Of course, looking at the topic from this angle calls into question the externalistic morale that only external things are "true/exist" and that stuff in mind is "false/virtual".... but well, fuck that.