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What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #25
Quote
Originally posted by rjamorim


Eheh.

It says the flaw is in Nero's MP3 decoder, not in the Audio CD writing routines.


Here is a section under conclusions.

Burning mp3s to audio CD
With modern fast PCs, it is possible to decode an mp3 file and burn it onto audio CD at the same time. Several CD writing packages offer this feature, called "on-the-fly" decoding. The alternative is to decode to .wav first, then burn these .wavs onto audio CD. The end result is the same, but this process takes longer, and requires enough free hard disk space to store the .wavs. However, it may be more reliable than "on-the-fly" decoding on slow PCs, and allows you to edit and normalize the .wavs before burning them to CD.

No packages offering "on-the-fly" decoding were perfect. Here is a list some CD-writing packages, together with their problems.

Easy CD Creator Deluxe 4 clips the end off many files, and costs around $99.
HyCD makes slight errors above 16kHz, and has poor low level accuracy.
Media Jukebox actually decodes to wav internally BEFORE writing to CD. It works well, but is no faster than decoding externally using other software. Not true "on-the-fly", but easy for the novice. No decoding faults.
MusicMatch Jukebox was not tested writing CDs, but its decoder makes an audible error with a particular lame encoded tone sweep.
Nero has slight high frequency errors, and costs $49.
Real Jukebox records the CDs in track at once mode, giving a 2 second gap between tracks. No decoding faults.
Windows Media Player 7B would not work with my CD writer, so could not be tested. The decoding engine is excellent, so it may write CDs perfectly.
WinOnCD can't handle VBR files, exhibits the 100Hz bug, and gives high frequency errors. More recent versions may have fixed these problems. It costs $59.
Real Jukebox and Media Jukebox are both good choices if you don't want to spend any money, and are quite easy to use. If you already own Easy CD Creator Deluxe 4, and don't mind the last 1/20th second being clipped off your files, then that is a good choice too. For CDs that really matter, I still decode to .wav first

Read the section for Nero
What if the Hokey Pokey....is What it's all about?

What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #26
Quote
Originally posted by smg
Read the section for Nero


So?

I read the Nero section:

Quote
Nero has slight high frequency errors, and costs . 


And I still say it's related to MP3 decoding, not CD writing.

Keep in mind that the entire site you linked is dedicated to MP3 decoder comparision only - David Robinson is not reviewing CD writers there.

Regards;

Roberto.

What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #27
Quote
Originally posted by rjamorim


Eheh.

It says the flaw is in Nero's MP3 decoder, not in the Audio CD writing routines.


It decodes on the fly when you burn.  Does that mean you must first decode to a .wav before using nero to burn to prevent the hi freg flaw
What if the Hokey Pokey....is What it's all about?

What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #28
Quote
Originally posted by smg
It decodes on the fly when you burn.  Does that mean you must first decode to a .wav before using nero to burn to prevent the hi freg flaw


Yes. And decode with a good decoder, like Winamp, mpg123 or mad.

Besides, this bug might have been addressed in the latest versions. It would be worth checking.

Regards;

Roberto.

What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #29
Quote
Originally posted by rjamorim


I love NTI CDmaker. The interface is horrendous, but if is packed with features you won't find anywhere else (like Romeo file name extension support) and is rock-stable.

Regards;

Roberto.


Ditto... I like how NTI CD Maker Pro fills the name of the disc image with the current date/time, rather than just calling it "NEW" like Nero (and forcing you to give it a name).

And I don't think the interface is bad... interfaces are matters of preference.  Nero looks rather horrendous to me (way too cluttered), after using NTI awhile.

What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #30
Quote
Originally posted by fewtch
And I don't think the interface is bad... interfaces are matters of preference.  Nero looks rather horrendous to me (way too cluttered), after using NTI awhile.


Well, my problem is that I can't stand that bald guy with a cook hat.

And the background thing... : /  One of these days I must create a blanked-out bitmap and use it as background.

What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #31
Quote
Originally posted by rjamorim


Well, my problem is that I can't stand that bald guy with a cook hat.

And the background thing... : /   One of these days I must create a blanked-out bitmap and use it as background.

I rather like the backgrounds, but could do without the guy in the hat .

Another thing about NTI is it adds very few registry entries... Nero adds several hundred, and especially on a Win98 system the registry has to be kept to a reasonable size.

What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #32
i always wondered whether that "on-the-fly" mp3 writing in nero would be problematic.  luckily I rarely burn mp3's back to disk.

but for next time, its best to use MAD and winamp to decode to wav?  Does that mean use the the diskwriter plugin and listen to each and every song with it to create wavs?  That is pretty time prohibitive.

What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #33
Quote
Originally posted by rjamorim


Yes. And decode with a good decoder, like Winamp, mpg123 or mad.

Besides, this bug might have been addressed in the latest versions. It would be worth checking.

Regards;

Roberto.


Good point.  If you have to go straight from mp3 to audio on disk,  you can choose which decoder to do it with.

And, another good point.  One of the things I like about Nero..  is that they regularly crank out new versions/updates about every month or so..

What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #34
Quote
whats the limitation of feurio? are there nag screens, timeouts, ...?


Only nag-screens, when you start it. Otherwise, it's 100% usable and non-crippled.



Quote
possibly.. when i used burnproof i burnt at 24x or higher to test it, so maybe at 12x it can stay at a constant speed the entire time. regardless, im a bit concerned about cds that appear physically different on the bottom.


Usually, Z-CLV starts at 24x. 16x and 20x speeds should be plain CLV, which should be better for burning audio CDs, in theory.

What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #35
Re: www.mp3decoders.org

The errors were in the mp3 decoding by nero, not nero audio CD burning in general. Please note that the test is quite old - a newer version of nero might have fixed the bug.


For the "anally retentive" kind of people who read this site, you really should be decoding to .wav separately first! I'm not saying it will sound any better, but it gives you the option to...

1. decode to 24-bit accuracy and dither down (e.g. use MAD)
2. check the sampling rate is correct, and use a good quality resampling algorithm if necessary
3. prevent corrupt mp3s from crashing/halting the CD burning process
4. fix the gaps on live/mix albums

When I was in a hurry, I used to use ECDC on-the-fly decoding. Unfortunately, when burning downloaded mp3s, 2 and 3 would catch me out occasionally! For this reason, it's actually quicker/easier to decode to .wav first, rather than make a coaster. If they're your mp3s, you shouldn't have problems 2 and 3.

Cheers,
David.
http://www.David.Robinson.org/

What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #36
Quote
Originally posted by 2Bdecided
Re: www.mp3decoders.org

For the "anally retentive" kind of people who read this site, you really should be decoding to .wav separately first! I'm not saying it will sound any better, but it gives you the option to...

Cheers,
David.
http://www.David.Robinson.org/


Thank You David
My wife must be right "Anal Retentive"
A Smart man learns from his mistakes....A Wise man learns from other peoples mistakes
What if the Hokey Pokey....is What it's all about?

What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #37
Just added some links to Davids post for completeness:

Quote
Originally posted by 2Bdecided

1. decode to 24-bit accuracy and dither down (e.g. use MAD)
2. check the sampling rate is correct, and use a good quality resampling algorithm if necessary
3. prevent corrupt mp3s from crashing/halting the CD burning process
4. fix the gaps on live/mix albums

When I was in a hurry, I used to use ECDC on-the-fly decoding. Unfortunately, when burning downloaded mp3s, 2 and 3 would catch me out occasionally! For this reason, it's actually quicker/easier to decode to .wav first, rather than make a coaster. If they're your mp3s, you shouldn't have problems 2 and 3.

Cheers,
David.
http://www.David.Robinson.org/


1
WinLame has MADlib build-in :
WinLame @ sourceforge
MAD:
MAD homepage

2
SSRC high quality sampling rate conversion:

Shibatch's homepage

(Question: How good does SOX perform when it comes to resampling ?)

3
Mp3Utility can check mp3s for various kinds of errors:
Mp3Utility

What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #38
Yeah, this is a good point.  If you've got some high quality mp3s you want to decode properly before making an audio cd, make sure you're using a good decoder.

I recently wrote an article about this at:

http://www.chrismyden.com/nuke/article.php?sid=99

In short, use WinAmp 2.7+ or the MAD decoder plugin for WinAmp to decode if you want great quality.

Real Jukebox and Media Jukebox use excellent decoders.

MusicMatch Jukebox and Nero both use flawed decoders.

chris

What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #39
Quote
Originally posted by Daffy
I don't understand this clearly.  Can you re-explain in newbie terms.


Already done :
The use of offsets@EAC


It's the most relevant link, but you're free to read those ones too :

Offsets are arbitrary :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eac/message/6593 @EAC mailing list.

Mathematical war between Pio2001 and Matthias trying to figure out ofsets without external reference :
How to figure out your offset @EAC

How to "read" your read offset with noisy CDs : How to find a reference offset Article


Quote
Originally posted by Daffy
So you recommend we use a 0 in the read sample offset correction field in EAC?


Not really, because offset correction or not, it won't change much. I would rather recommand not to care at all.

For people accurate enough to be interested in offsets, I recommand using an accurate wav editor. I know Cool Edit, and Samplitude. I know SoundForge 4.5 isn't accurate (no vertical overzooming) but maybe SF5 is. Don't know about Wavelab.
Avoid GoldWave, Feurio, and Nero : no vertical zoom.
EAC could work, but using some tricks with the "automatic range selection" : the vertical zoom depends on the size of the wav displayed in the Window. Very unpratical, but free.

Then you can check if your wavs are properly edited. The first must begin with silence, and the start of the track must not be sudden, a little fade-in of several samples at least is needed to avoid an audible click.
This is very nit picking, but there are some CDs that begin before track 1 ! In that case, they must be corrected.
Examples, Black - Wonderful Life, and Mike Oldfield, Discovery are in this case. The track 1 starts in the pregap, and the beginning is clearly missing when the CD is played.
AmGod - Half Rotten and Decayed is a CD mastered with a huge write offset. All tracks begin before the track marker. Drive offset correction is nonsense on this CD, it's like calculating the distance between two towns to within one millimeter, while you don't even know if you're measuring from center to center or subburb to subburb, by road or by air.

For the end of last track, there is just to check that it ends with enough silence (after a tiny fade-out, like the first track begining). I recommend adding 2 seconds of digital silence at the end if there is none, it will allow about 150 generations of lossless copies without offset correction, granted the average combined offset is one sector, before the last data of the last track begins to be lost.

All these adjustments relates to offset correction in some way, and turns automatic offset correction useless.

Quote
Originally posted by Daffy
Also PIO2001, what burning software do you recommended for copying audio CDs?  I value your opion.  Thanks.


EAC for ripping.
For burning, well... I don't know.

All can do a perfect job since Nero 5.5.7.8. It's a matter of interface.

I liked EasyCD Creator 4, but the version I have doesn't support my burner. There was write errors sometimes (one or two different samples), but now I'll never know if it was EasyCd's fault or my old burner's fault.
I hate Nero because it inserts gaps between your wavs, and there is no way to default the pause to zero. You get a coaster each time you forget to cancel the gaps.
I can't recommend EAC because of the Lead-out issue, though maybe it's not important.
WinOnCD is discontinued.
Feurio is without doubt the best, according to what I've read. I never burned with it because the interface is too heavy.

Personally, I use Nero and EAC. I can't decide between the gap and the lead-out things.
To make compilations, I use Samplitude Producer pro, but it's not in the same price range. It's a top of the art editing, mixing and mastering program, about 1000 €.

I can but rally the general opinion about Feurio being the best. For newbies I would have recommended WinOnCD, or EasyCd creator if I had tested the last one (I had the 4) and checked that it didn't introduce write errors.

What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #40
Quote
Originally posted by Pio2001



I liked EasyCD Creator 4, but the version I have doesn't support my burner. There was write errors sometimes (one or two different samples), but now I'll never know if it was EasyCd's fault or my old burner's fault.

and

....I would have recommended WinOnCD, or EasyCd creator if I had tested the last one (I had the 4) and checked that it didn't introduce write errors.


First off, all I can say is WOW!  Thanks PIO2001 for such an informative post.  Now, I have a question regarding your comments above on ECDC, or in general:  how do you check for writer errors that you describe above?  Do you use the Nero utility CD Check or something?  I have ECDC 5.0 Basic that came with my Plextor 24/10/40A and I'm not sure I want to use it either because it seems like the entire community hates that product.  I have been using Nero instead to make compilations, but I'm concerned about the gap issue also.  On the other hand, Nero can burn *.cue sheets like EAC and other image files.  ECDC can't burn *cue sheets, which sucks.  How good is Easy's CD Copy?  Surely it's not as good as creating an image with EAC and burning with Nero, EAC, or some other program that supports *cue sheet burning.

Personally, I think all these programs have issues....

What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #41
Quote
Originally posted by Daffy
how do you check for writer errors that you describe above?


I kept the wavs that EasyCd burned, then I extracted them with EAC, and compared wavs (original vs copy). THere was one or two "different samples" in the middle of a track.
I re-extracted two other times, because with the Hitachi GD-7500, it was difficult to get a consistent result, and the same error came again at the same place (thus write error burned on the CD) while another disappeared (read error of the copy). It was n't a firmware reading bug, like the old Toshiba one, because I could also get perfect copies sometimes.

Quote
Originally posted by Daffy
I have ECDC 5.0 Basic that came with my Plextor 24/10/40A and I'm not sure I want to use it either because it seems like the entire community hates that product.


This hatred was mostly against EasyCD creator 3. It seems it replaced the Windows ASPI with Adaptec's (correct me if I'm wrong), and it has a major bug writing audio (it cut much more than one sector at the end of tracks !).
Since EasyCD creator 4 is out, I heard in forums about 5 times more complaints about Nero than about EasyCD (that is about 2 and 10  ), especially the writing bug (solved in 5.5.7.8, though undocumented), and the Nero85CD.vxd that conflicted withEAC.
Now those issues are solved in Nero 5.5.8.2. I don't think there is anything wrong left in either Nero or EasyCD.

Quote
Originally posted by Daffy
I have been using Nero instead to make compilations, but I'm concerned about the gap issue also. 


Just a matter of interface : you must reset the pause to zero each time you add tracks, while EasyCD saves your preferences.

Quote
Originally posted by Daffy
How good is Easy's CD Copy?  Surely it's not as good as creating an image with EAC and burning with Nero, EAC, or some other program that supports *cue sheet burning.


The issue is secure reading, you can't avoid EAC for this purpose. Cuesheet is not important. Wether you prefer burning in Nero with a cuesheet or in EasyCD appending tracks is a matter of taste, granted the tracks were extracted with EAC in secure mode.

Quote
Originally posted by Daffy
Personally, I think all these programs have issues....


I don't recall having heard of any issue with Feurio, is there ?

What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #42
Quote
Originally posted by Pio2001


Cuesheet is not important. Wether you prefer burning in Nero with a cuesheet or in EasyCD appending tracks is a matter of taste, granted the tracks were extracted with EAC in secure mode.


Well, I suppose you can run into problems on Live CDs or other CDs where some songs are continuous, although the change to a different track (i.e. no gap).  The best way to copy these CDs is as an image, correct?  If so, I won't be able to use EasyCD because it doesn't copy EAC's secure images.  I would have to put my faith in Easy's extraction methods and hope it doesn't introduce errors.  Or could I still extract track by track with EAC and then make a compilation with EasyCD with 0 second gap and not hear clicks?

BTW, thanks for you comments.

What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #43
NTI nag screens and backgrounds:

I hate them too...
I eliminated the nag screen...and I changed the landscapes by gray bmp's...

I always burn my cds in DAO mode (data & audio).
And I dont like go higher than 4x for audio. (I think because of this, I never had a single click, skip or pop in ALL my CDA "copies" and they play flawless...!
For extraction: EAC/secure, after a good cd cleaning and a cold boot.

Um grande abraco,


LIF
"Jazz washes away the dust of everyday life" (Art Blakey)

What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #44
Thanks for the hints.

BTW: for the record: Brazil Rules.

Abraço;

Roberto.

What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #45
Quote
Originally posted by Daffy
Well, I suppose you can run into problems on Live CDs or other CDs where some songs are continuous,


No, nothing to fear. The only case I can think of would be performing a test and copy selected tracks (no possible sync between track) with a non accurate stream drive. There, yes, you'd need either to copy image twice and compare them (if you want the added safety of test and copy that made you loose the sync between track in the previous sentence), either copy selected tracks and keep the log with all CRC for comparison with another copy selected tracks.
No problem if your drive has accurate stream. You can copy selected tracks, or test and copy selected tracks, then append them in EasyCD.
[edit]You can also just copy selected tracks (no test) with a non accurate drive without danger, as long as you have the "sync between ttracks" option checked. It checks that there is no problem at the track transition.[/edit]

Quote
Originally posted by Daffy
I would have to put my faith in Easy's extraction methods and hope it doesn't introduce errors. 


Don't you dare :eek: !

What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #46
Hi Guys

Does Nero do the following, normalisation before burning?
from *.cda RIPING & NORMALISE get *.wav
from *.wav BURN get *.cda on a new cd

Thanks guys

What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #47
Quote
Originally posted by LIF
NTI nag screens and backgrounds:

I hate them too...
I eliminated the nag screen...and I changed the landscapes by gray bmp's...

I always burn my cds in DAO mode (data & audio).

With my Plextor burner+ NTI, I usually burn data in TAO, with "close session and disc" selected.  It's the same thing I think, except that the TOC is written at the end rather than the beginning of the process.  With audio though, I usually use DAO (unless pauses between tracks are desirable for some reason).

There's a bug in the most recent NTI with my Plextor drive with *CD-RW's* specifically, when I try burning data discs in DAO mode.  The write goes fine, but the program hangs at the end.... that's why I use TAO with "close session/disc" instead, it seems to avoid problems and works just as well.

P.S... what "nag screen" is this?  Using a non-retail version of NTI, by any chance?

What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #48
Quote
Originally posted by rjamorim

BTW: for the record: Brazil Rules.

Abraço;

Roberto.


You got bragging rights thats for sure
What if the Hokey Pokey....is What it's all about?

What program do you use to burn audio CDs?

Reply #49
Quote
Originally posted by smg
You got bragging rights thats for sure


Thanks. 

But let's wait for Sunday (Or Saturday, depending on your time zone)

 
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